Session 4-20: Episodes 9 (& 10)

Haakon

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Staff member
Personally, I vote for the battle being a test and a way to lure the Elves into over-confidence. That way, we make Morgoth more terrible and less like a bad movie villain. I agree that Morgoth should be weakened by his Eastern campaign, but I don't think that he's afraid that the Elves could break into Angband and really harm him at this point. I also agree that he could be fearing the attack of the Valar - and if he does, he would keep the Balrogs off the field - to guard him if necessary, but also because he might think that a bigger attack could increase the risk of the Valar intervening. He should be happy or at least content after the battle, having gotten intel about the Elven defence and their general fighting and coordinating abilities. Gothmog doesn't have to be happy, but could be informed that his time will come.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Personally, I vote for the battle being a test and a way to lure the Elves into over-confidence. That way, we make Morgoth more terrible and less like a bad movie villain. I agree that Morgoth should be weakened by his Eastern campaign, but I don't think that he's afraid that the Elves could break into Angband and really harm him at this point. I also agree that he could be fearing the attack of the Valar - and if he does, he would keep the Balrogs off the field - to guard him if necessary, but also because he might think that a bigger attack could increase the risk of the Valar intervening. He should be happy or at least content after the battle, having gotten intel about the Elven defence and their general fighting and coordinating abilities. Gothmog doesn't have to be happy, but could be informed that his time will come.

I can tell you that this was my original suggestion for why Morgoth commits such an egregious error in judgement. The Hosts, at the time, were firmly on the side of the attack being intended to actually crush the Elves. They might might change their mind on (or forget about) this point, but I suggest that if we pursue this tack, we are prepared to meet some resistance.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I can tell you that this was my original suggestion for why Morgoth commits such an egregious error in judgement. The Hosts, at the time, were firmly on the side of the attack being intended to actually crush the Elves. They might might change their mind on (or forget about) this point, but I suggest that if we pursue this tack, we are prepared to meet some resistance.
Perhaps it’s the sheer number of Orcs that Morgoth intends to crush the Elves, but keeps the Balrogs at Angband in case the Valar decide to attack? There’s been concepts of Morgoth and an arms race of him trying various means to defeat the Noldor and Sindar.
Page 10 of the Orcs thread
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I simply want Morgoth to look as powerful as possible, while the Elves think of the battle as a glorious victory. The only way to accomplish that is to portray Morgoth’s loss as calculated. He wants to push the Elves enough to force them to show their strengths and weaknesses, so he’ll throw a zillion orcs at them, but he doesn’t care about winning this time (he wouldn’t mind but doesn’t expect to). He wants to make sure he’ll crush them the next time.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I can tell you that this was my original suggestion for why Morgoth commits such an egregious error in judgement. The Hosts, at the time, were firmly on the side of the attack being intended to actually crush the Elves. They might might change their mind on (or forget about) this point, but I suggest that if we pursue this tack, we are prepared to meet some resistance.
Ok so we will have to prepare well. As a last resort, start a Twitter campaign. #NoBalrogsInAglareb #SaveAngrod
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok so we will have to prepare well. As a last resort, start a Twitter campaign. #NoBalrogsInAglareb #SaveAngrod
So if we are to have Angrod live, we have to persuade them to not have the Balrogs there, and we need to give Morgoth a reason why he wouldn’t be deploying the Balrogs.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So if we are to have Angrod live, we have to persuade them to not have the Balrogs there, and we need to give Morgoth a reason why he wouldn’t be deploying the Balrogs.
Yes that’s exactly what we’re trying to do.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Looks like #NoBalrogsInAglareb and #SaveAngrod is losing steam.
Well, with the balrogs at Aglareb, there was little chance Angrod would survive. Personally, I think that putting the balrogs in a battle where he is "trying the strength" of the Noldor seems foolish. But I've done all I can on that point.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
That’s a pity. I came in with an hour left of the session and I understood pretty quickly that the battle of Angrod had been fought and lost. But it lasted for a whole hour, I gather? Well fought.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah...though it began with the clear indication that there wasn't going to be any budging on the part of the Hosts on these points. So...having them explain more thoroughly why they disagreed isn't necessarily a successful argument tactic.

But, at least the alternatives were considered, I suppose.


No, I don't think they will allow us to swap Angrod with someone else. For one thing, there are no other major characters we can spare to kill off in this episode (every single grandchild of Finwë or spouse or supporting character we've introduced has a future role to play) - Angrod was the *only* one available for killing off right now, plot-wise. Introducing a minor character just to kill off that character in the battle would be fine...but does not satisfy the balrog rule. And for another - they clearly like the emotional impact of killing Edhellos and Angrod now to destroy Orodreth.

So, yeah, at this point we're pretty much stuck with it (though we can talk more tomorrow).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
You know, we could have a Balrog death in the Dagor Bragollach amongst the Men. Glaurung is going to attack the Eastern front through Maglor's Gap, we could have Sauron attack Dorthonion and Sirion and kill Aegnor in the evacuation of Dorthonion, while Gothmog and Boldog or another Balrog attack Hithlum/Mithrim and kill Hador and Gundor.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I vote against any Balrogs dying before Gondolin. Then the rest (but one) are killed in the War of Wrath.
I’m not really onboard with having Gothmog being the first of the Balrogs to die at Gondolin.
Though what I’m suggesting doesn’t have to do with Balrog deaths, it’s more about who attacks what in the Dagor Bragollach; Galdor and Gundor will probably not kill a Balrog on the western front, they’ll likely get stomped.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I vote against any Balrogs dying before Gondolin. Then the rest (but one) are killed in the War of Wrath.
If I remember early days plans correctly, we want to have Durin's Bane and one other Balrog escape death (or at least have the fate of that one other Balrog be unclear). Not because we have plans to use him or anything, but just to leave some mystery in Middle Earth.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
If I remember early days plans correctly, we want to have Durin's Bane and one other Balrog escape death (or at least have the fate of that one other Balrog be unclear). Not because we have plans to use him or anything, but just to leave some mystery in Middle Earth.
Yes ok. I remember. Let’s leave it a mystery. But my main point is that we kill most of them off in the War of Wrath, but a couple in the fall of Gondolin.

Is it clear that Ecthelion kills Gothmog (and dies) before Glorfindel kills a balrog (and dies)?
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Yes ok. I remember. Let’s leave it a mystery. But my main point is that we kill most of them off in the War of Wrath, but a couple in the fall of Gondolin.

Is it clear that Ecthelion kills Gothmog (and dies) before Glorfindel kills a balrog (and dies)?
I think that's the sort of choreography we can take whatever license with that we desire. Perhaps the way we cut between scenes will have one happen in the timeline first, but the other is shown on screen first.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes ok. I remember. Let’s leave it a mystery. But my main point is that we kill most of them off in the War of Wrath, but a couple in the fall of Gondolin.

Is it clear that Ecthelion kills Gothmog (and dies) before Glorfindel kills a balrog (and dies)?
Will have to find my copy of The Fall of Gondolin, but as the matter stands as of the Tolkien database, this is the case.
 
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