Session 4-22: Final Creative Content - Dragons!

[Rhiannon]

Right - the goal would be to tease some stuff in the background a few times.

If someone from Valinor is knocking on the doors of Angband (so to speak), the inhabitants would be very suspicious and distrustful. So, I think Maia!Glaurung's arrival has to either happen while Morgoth is in residence (only he could vet the guy satisfactorily), or he has to know someone from way-back-when and be let in for that reason. Showing Maia!Glaurung persuasively talk himself inside Angband sounds promising. So, perhaps this could be a scene some time in Episodes 1-6?

Maia!Glaurung would be a background character in the Episode 8 'Meanwhile in Angband' stuff.

The conversation between Morgoth and Maia!Glaurung over the silmarils? and Morgoth's desire to make use of him in the war can be an Episode 10 tag.

We should probably save the 'transformation of Maia!Glaurung into a dragon' scene for Season 5 in flashbacks.

Maybe Morgoth breathing fire into Glaurung could be shown at the beginning of Episode 13 without it being clear what is going on until Glaurung himself starts breathing fire later in the episode.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Hey isn’t Olorin supposed to be visiting Middle-earth from time to time? And he’s associated with Lorien. Could he have a sidekick who defects and joins Morgoth? (Glaurung)

Not from what I’ve read, and there aren’t any descriptions of Olorin in Middle-Earth before the Third Age 1050 when he arrives as Gandalf the Grey.

 

[Haakon]

Not from what I’ve read, and there aren’t any descriptions of Olorin in Middle-Earth before the Third Age 1050 when he arrives as Gandalf the Grey.

This is about Olorin, from the Silmarillion (page 22 in my edition):
“. . . though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.”

 

[Rhiannon]

This is about Olorin, from the Silmarillion (page 22 in my edition):
“. . . though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.”

In Unfinished Tales, Olorin is mentioned as being "a lover of the Eldar that remained [in Valinor]." He is unwilling to go to Middle Earth because he is afraid of Sauron. Presumably, he would also have been afraid of Melkor in the First Age, although his fear in this case could just be for going in an incarnate form instead of as an unseen spirit.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

If I can find a way to set Glaurung up early in the season though, I will. Having him suddenly appear as the antagonist of the finale is just poor storytelling.

And I don't agree with the idea that not telling this story makes it better somehow. Tolkien tells us that this story happens, and we all imagine it on some level. If a story gets worse for being told, it seems to me that most likely, it was either poorly told, or not a very good story to begin with.

I had an idea for having Glaurung appear out of nowhere like in the books, but in this case next season, after his attack, it turns out he tricked someone like Gothmog into letting him loose. Not quite mind control, but encouraging him to do something he already would want to do (I imagine Gothmog wanting to “play with the biggest, newest toy in the workshop” and let him loose). Also, bear in mind that at his first appearance in F.A. 260, he’s not going to be at peak intelligence, it takes time to learn strategy (which Glaurung also knows by the Nirnaeth and Fall of Nargothrond).

 

[Haerangil]

There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of fallen spirits around from Utumno or still at Angband... most never get a name, not the other six balrogs, not the other vampires, ice-demons, shadowspirits or boldogs peers...
as far as i can see the only thing which differes Glaurung from any of them it that Morgoth somehow warps him! And we don't even know how much of the former spirit really remains after he becomes Glaurung.. i somehow suspect:not much! He pretty much becomes something totally new..

 

[Ange1e4e5]

There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of fallen spirits around from Utumno or still at Angband... most never get a name, not the other six balrogs, not the other vampires, ice-demons, shadowspirits or boldogs peers...
as far as i can see the only thing which differes Glaurung from any of them it that Morgoth somehow warps him! And we don't even know how much of the former spirit really remains after he becomes Glaurung.. i somehow suspect:not much! He pretty much becomes something totally new..

So what happens to a Maia when they die?

Maybe we could have a voice actor pre-transformation Glaurung and one post-transformation?

Also, what should we name this Maia that becomes Glaurung?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Also, I guess we’re gonna have to go back through the scripts and add scenes with the Maia that becomes Glaurung?

There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of fallen spirits around from Utumno or still at Angband... most never get a name, not the other six balrogs, not the other vampires, ice-demons, shadowspirits or boldogs peers...
as far as i can see the only thing which differes Glaurung from any of them it that Morgoth somehow warps him! And we don't even know how much of the former spirit really remains after he becomes Glaurung.. i somehow suspect:not much! He pretty much becomes something totally new..

Perhaps what makes Morgoth choose the Maia that becomes Glaurung is his greed?

 

[Haerangil]

I really feel the more we try to make up too much of a backstory the more we get into trouble!

 

[Haakon]

I really feel the more we try to make up too much of a backstory the more we get into trouble!

Point taken. But I’m just going with the suggestions from the session. If Glaurung is a Maia of Lorien, he isn’t going to hang around Angband. He will more probably defect during a visit from Valinor. The idea that he’d be Olorin’s sidekick is just a brainstorming product though, I’m not saying I really want that.

 

[Rhiannon]

The backstory the hosts proposed in the podcast was that he would be a Maia of Lorien who went to Middle-earth because he had convinced himself that he was going to get the Silmarils back to give to Yavanna, but he secretly desired them for himself. Morgoth then converted him by exploiting his desire for the Silmarils.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Do Maiar flit back and forth between Valinor and Middle-Earth? The last one to arrive before the War of Wrath is Thorondor.

 

[Rhiannon]

I don't particularly like the idea of him going after the Silmarils for the Valar because it would go against Feanor's choice not to surrender them.

 

[Haerangil]

Yeah, usually they don't... i mean Melian did and Thorondor -if he was a Maia -but that's it pretty much.

Can't say i love the Lórien-spirit idea..

 

[Ange1e4e5]

You know, Glaurung could be just as scary because he has no backstory. He pretty much drops into the story out of nowhere as a fire-breathing dragon.

I propose that Morgoth makes upgrades to him as things progress. Instead, he has the fire-breathing first since we hear about that power first with a taste of the budding manipulation/silver tongue he has, then tactical skills like commanding troops in battle and being a good general which we'll see in the Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad, then in his final form in the second half of The Children of Hurin, he's developed the mind powers that send Turin on a wild goose chase to Dor-Lomin and wipe Nienor's memory. And along the way he gets progressively bigger (though his belly remains unprotected since Azaghal has to deal him a severe enough injury he has to flee the Nirnaeth, and Turin stabs him in the belly; presumably he is able to kill Glaurung because he has a longer weapon than Azaghal).

 

[amysrevenge]

I don't particularly like the idea of him going after the Silmarils for the Valar because it would go against Feanor's choice not to surrender them.

(Haven't listened to the session yet)
I would think that he would be setting off on his own, not at anyone's request. So it can be against whatever you like; he's doing a bad thing for a bad reason, and only painting on the thinnest veneer of a "good" motivation that would only fool himself.

 

[Rhiannon]

Here's a painting of Glaurung I did based on Tolkien's illustration of Glorund.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So as a recap, why did the Hosts decide to include the origin of Glaurung when they didn’t want to a few sessions ago? Right now, we’re pretty tied up, like that knotted dragon.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

So as a recap, why did the Hosts decide to include the origin of Glaurung when they didn’t want to a few sessions ago? Right now, we’re pretty tied up, like that knotted dragon.

Probably because including Glaurung in the season arc makes better sense story wise if he is to be the culmination of the season. They were unconvinced of this early in the season.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

You know, Glaurung could be just as scary because he has no backstory. He pretty much drops into the story out of nowhere as a fire-breathing dragon.

It is true that in the historical summary we get from the Silmarillion, Tolkien does not get into details about this or many other topics. I think we are looking to do something more details than that.