Session 4-23: Episodes 11 and 12

Spell and language have NOTHING to do with each other!the idea that a spell is stronger because it is quenya has no base at all, i believe its a misconception.magic has it's source in the spirit, the soul, will, faith, skill of a person, not the vocabulary or grammar.
 
First I've heard of approval for that scene.

Is there any fallout over the Ban on Quenya and Jewels? If Quenya is stronger than Sindarin, have the Elves shot themselves in the foot and some spells are not as powerful since they're not in Quenya? To paraphrase, is it the steel (the language) or the hand that wields it (the person/being who invokes the language)?
I don't think one language is inherently more powerful than the other, although it might be possible that a translation would would be weaker than a spell originally conceived in a different language, kind of like how poems and songs almost always sound better in their original language.

Also, given a Noldo and a Sinda of equal power, maybe a spell cast by the Noldo in Quenya or by the Sinda in Sindarin would be more powerful than the same spell cast by the Noldo in Sindarin or by the Sinda in Quenya because of their familiarity with their own language.
 
Session 4-23 will be held on Thursday September 12th at 10 PM Eastern Time.

We will focus on discussing Episodes 11 and 12. Perhaps we will touch on the passage of time and depicting the peace of the Siege as well.

GANTT chart for reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...j3TpG3Bnt1hPqHBaGL17TB0Y8/edit#gid=1115838130

In Episode 11, Finrod goes to Doriath and asks Thingol for help making his own Menegroth. Thingol is conflicted - he wants to help his brother's grandson, but also...the KINSLAYING stands between them. Also at this time, Thingol discovers that Celeborn knew about the Kinslaying and did not tell Thingol. Celeborn and Galadriel get engaged. Galathil (or some variation of that name) shows up? Turgon is led to find Tumladen by Ulmo.

In Episode 12, Thingol introduces Finrod to Norn, who makes arrangements for Finrod to use the caves by the River Narog. Norn evicts the Petty-dwarves (the Exiled, Houseless Dwarves). Mablung and Norn have a final conversation, a follow-up of Norn's story in Episode 2. The construction of Nargothrond. Gondolin is under construction, and Aredhel makes the decision to go with Turgon to his new secret city. To lead up to that decision, she makes a 'farewell tour' of Beleriand. The 'escape' of Rog and Annael? (Could be in episode 13 instead)
So is Galadriel’s wedding to Celeborn pushed to the season finale?
 
Session 4-23 will be held on Thursday September 12th at 10 PM Eastern Time.

We will focus on discussing Episodes 11 and 12. Perhaps we will touch on the passage of time and depicting the peace of the Siege as well.

GANTT chart for reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...j3TpG3Bnt1hPqHBaGL17TB0Y8/edit#gid=1115838130

In Episode 11, Finrod goes to Doriath and asks Thingol for help making his own Menegroth. Thingol is conflicted - he wants to help his brother's grandson, but also...the KINSLAYING stands between them. Also at this time, Thingol discovers that Celeborn knew about the Kinslaying and did not tell Thingol. Celeborn and Galadriel get engaged. Galathil (or some variation of that name) shows up? Turgon is led to find Tumladen by Ulmo.

In Episode 12, Thingol introduces Finrod to Norn, who makes arrangements for Finrod to use the caves by the River Narog. Norn evicts the Petty-dwarves (the Exiled, Houseless Dwarves). Mablung and Norn have a final conversation, a follow-up of Norn's story in Episode 2. The construction of Nargothrond. Gondolin is under construction, and Aredhel makes the decision to go with Turgon to his new secret city. To lead up to that decision, she makes a 'farewell tour' of Beleriand. The 'escape' of Rog and Annael? (Could be in episode 13 instead)
Passage of time: we could have a sequence of a character, say Turgon, walking down a street as Gondolin is under construction and as he walks, his surroundings change: the silver and gold trees grow up, buildings are constructed, an Elven child (Voronwe or Pengolodh since these are Elves that are known to have been born during this time) grows up.

Similar to the scene in Notting Hill where William Thacker (Hugh Grant) walks down a street and his surroundings change (including him donning a coat).

Original idea is on page 3 of Session 4.22, but I posted here as well due to relevance.
 
That's a great scene, and it would work doing something similar (as I also have been advocating) but I want to stress that it can be similar, but not too similar. I mean, we should use visual cues to mark passing of time, and we could do a montage, but the walking down a street risks becoming too similar to the montage in Notting Hill. If we also add a song, the similarity will increase, and risk becoming a pastiche or imitation. So we definitely should use the elements used in that montage, but we should not copy it.
 
That's a great scene, and it would work doing something similar (as I also have been advocating) but I want to stress that it can be similar, but not too similar. I mean, we should use visual cues to mark passing of time, and we could do a montage, but the walking down a street risks becoming too similar to the montage in Notting Hill. If we also add a song, the similarity will increase, and risk becoming a pastiche or imitation. So we definitely should use the elements used in that montage, but we should not copy it.
True. I just wanted a base to start from to depict the passing of time.
 
Right, it's fine to be 'inspired by' and give us something to serve as a starting point.

When we were talking about depicting the Rising of the Sun at the end of Season 2, we compared that to the Lighting the Beacons scene in Return of the King. Obviously, it's not a copy or anything, it's just that we want the scene to have that rousing effect, so it's a good reference. And we brought up other examples as well, such as the coming of spring to Narnia in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, so it wasn't as though we only had a single reference scene in mind.


Also, when we were talking about the meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor at the beginning of this season, we looked at some scenes depicting meetings between those who spoke different languages in the TV show Vikings as an example of how to convey not only the language differences, but the tension and uncertainty between the groups to the audience.

So, in that context, I am fine with using the scene from Notting Hill as a reference for how to depict the passage of a long stretch of time during the construction of Gondolin. Going from a bare hill to fully built city while the camera moves about the place would be a neat sequence to plan out. But obviously we don't just want to recreate that exact scene in our show!
 
Agreed. I got the feeling things were getting a bit too similar , so I wanted to make that clear. Good to hear we're all on the same page.
 
Ulmo is going to appear in person to Turgon twice: once in Episode 11 to tell him to go to Tumladen alone and once in Episode 12 to tell him to at last take his people to Gondolin, warn him about Gondolin's doom, and tell him to leave armor for Tuor. Both of these appearances happen in Vinyamar, and after the second one, the book mentions that "Ulmo returned to the sea."

What should Ulmo's appearances to Turgon look like? How similar should they be to his spectacular appearance to Tuor later on? Will other Elves witness Ulmo's conversations with Turgon, or will Ulmo speak to Turgon alone?

If we are going to make Ulmo rise dramatically out of the sea for one of the appearances, I think it should be the second one. I don't think Tuor's armor and the fact that he will come bearing a message from Ulmo is a secret among the Gondolindrim, and perhaps Ulmo's appearance could be what convinces those, like Aredhel, who might be more reluctant to go to Gondolin.
 
Hmm I’m feeling ambivalent about this. It is certainly a good idea to give Aredhel and others a motivational push by having Ulmo showing himself to others besides Turgon. On the other hand, there are things that make me hesitant: Because of the Doom and the genre stance of the Valar, we should assume that Ulmo is approaching Turgon with as much subtlety as possible. Also, the text says that Ulmo shows himself to Turgon, not to a group of people. A group seeing him would probably have various ripple effects, something would go wrong in the worst case. To me, it seems it’s probably is a dreamlike experience. Ulmo can access Turgon this way, but perhaps not Tuor, so to talk to him and convince him, he has to be more obvious.
Turgon should probably have the influence on his people to make them come along anyway.
 
Hmm I’m feeling ambivalent about this. It is certainly a good idea to give Aredhel and others a motivational push by having Ulmo showing himself to others besides Turgon. On the other hand, there are things that make me hesitant: Because of the Doom and the genre stance of the Valar, we should assume that Ulmo is approaching Turgon with as much subtlety as possible. Also, the text says that Ulmo shows himself to Turgon, not to a group of people. A group seeing him would probably have various ripple effects, something would go wrong in the worst case. To me, it seems it’s probably is a dreamlike experience. Ulmo can access Turgon this way, but perhaps not Tuor, so to talk to him and convince him, he has to be more obvious.
Turgon should probably have the influence on his people to make them come along anyway.
What's going to convince an outdoorsy type like Aredhel to move to a city surrounded by mountains?

As for a dreamlike experience, we could take inspiration (not exact riffing) from Obi-wan appearing to Luke in Empire Strikes Back. I can't post a video of it since I can't find one on YouTube that isn't a parody.
 
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What's going to convince an outdoorsy type like Aredhel to move to a city surrounded by mountains?
First of all, Gondolin is not a small cave. She will have open air and places to go. In the end, it won’t be enough - but mostly because she misses the people who aren’t there. I agree that it probably isn’t the perfect place for her, but it’s not like she’s going to experience some kind of hell.
I have said before though that Aredhel should feel responsibility for Idril, who is still young and needs guidance. Later, when Idril is just old enough, Aredhel won’t feel the same way, and she’ll get restless and leave.
 
She's a freedom loving person, a huntress...

I think she DID suffer quite a bit from having to live in a big city without much opportunities to roam the wilderness...
 
She's a freedom loving person, a huntress...

I think she DID suffer quite a bit from having to live in a big city without much opportunities to roam the wilderness...
Fine, I don’t argue with that, but I don’t believe it is an obvious problem to begin with to a degree that demands a supernatural lobbyist. (But then, that’s already the case)
 
I mean, Turgon says, ‘Ulmo told me to do this and we should all go.’ Are they going to say, ‘We don’t believe you’ or ‘Naah, Ulmo is probably wrong’ ? Or: ‘Show me Ulmo or I’ll do as I please’
 
Fine, I don’t argue with that, but I don’t believe it is an obvious problem to begin with to a degree that demands a supernatural lobbyist. (But then, that’s already the case)
Well, perhaps that a supernatural lobbyist (Ulmo) is telling Turgon anything since the Valar have presumably abandoned them could be a sign.
 
I mean, Turgon says, ‘Ulmo told me to do this and we should all go.’ Are they going to say, ‘We don’t believe you’ or ‘Naah, Ulmo is probably wrong’ ? Or: ‘Show me Ulmo or I’ll do as I please’


And we have some leeway as to how large we make Tumladen. There probably is hunting and exploring that can be done right there, especially early on. This could be another reason Aredhel gets fed up with Gondolin, as agriculture expands and she runs out of new stuff to see.
 
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