Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I haven't watched the whole thing either, to be honest.
Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
From what I understood from the session, the biggest problem they had was with Sauron being the commander of the attack, which is what I had done in my alternate script without Balrogs, because they wanted Gothmog to look bad for losing and didn't think Sauron was the type to be a commander. They didn't want Sauron to be present at all, or, if he is present, to hang out on the fringes and try to take prisoners.
The reason they wanted Gothmog to kill Edhellos was to fulfill the Balrog Rule where an important named character must be killed whenever a Balrog is present.
I would counter that it is possible for Edhellos to be killed by Sauron, Angrod to survive, and the Balrogs to be shown as dangerous without killing an important named character.
The reason they wanted Gothmog to kill Edhellos was to fulfill the Balrog Rule where an important named character must be killed whenever a Balrog is present.
I would counter that it is possible for Edhellos to be killed by Sauron, Angrod to survive, and the Balrogs to be shown as dangerous without killing an important named character.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I don't think the objection is to Sauron being a commander, as we've already depicted him as such. The objection is to him being a failed commander and that him commanding Orcs would be a trifle strange given the hierarchy we've constructed thus far.
There are a few ways to handle this. One being distance, obviously. Another is having people between them. In the Black Gate scene of the RotK film, Legolas can see that Aragorn is in mortal danger from a troll, but is unable to intervene. However, if we want them to hear Gothmog name drop Sauron, and for Aegnor's sword to be broken, we could do it thusly. The two brothers manage to get at Gothmog and engage him. He wounds Angrod, though not mortally, and manages to break Aegnor's sword. Left defending his fallen brother with his broken sword, Aegnor prepares to make his last stand. This is when Fingolfin and his bodyguard comes up to relieve the center, forcing Gothmog back to the earthworks (Morgoth's forces have set up earthworks in this ambush). We get an update on the battle in the brief respite this buys them, and things really start to look bleak before the Feanoreans show up.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
That would absolutely be fatal. The initial blunt force trauma alone would kill him, let alone the fall.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
We’re going to have to come up with some other way to incapacitate Aegnor without killing him, then.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Such as being slashed in the arm or leg by a flaming sword or whip?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Certainly, but I'm not certain that Angrod and/or Aegnor would be able to hear Gothmog speaking to Edhellos with a bunch of trolls between them.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
nor see Gothmog kill Edhellos. Trolls are pretty tall.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I'm less concerned about this. Trolls may be tall, but they are still individuals with space between them. Enough for a chance to see what's happening o occur.
Pretty sure we can give Gothmog a booming battlefield voice.
You may not know it to look at me, but I can project when I need to. When I had a class of 50 teenage students, I could increase my volume over theirs, no matter how noisy they got. I know this, because the teachers in the other school building told me that they could hear me. There was a soccer field separating the buildings...long-ways...and the windows didn't face each other.
I get that battles are noisy and no one has any microphones or bullhorns, but as long as this distance isn't too great, you can make it work. You just have to warn your actors that they need to project; if they don't know there's gonna be a ton of background noise and use a 'normal' speaking tone, it will look and sound very silly, I agree.
You may not know it to look at me, but I can project when I need to. When I had a class of 50 teenage students, I could increase my volume over theirs, no matter how noisy they got. I know this, because the teachers in the other school building told me that they could hear me. There was a soccer field separating the buildings...long-ways...and the windows didn't face each other.
I get that battles are noisy and no one has any microphones or bullhorns, but as long as this distance isn't too great, you can make it work. You just have to warn your actors that they need to project; if they don't know there's gonna be a ton of background noise and use a 'normal' speaking tone, it will look and sound very silly, I agree.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
In modern military parlance, they call that a command voice. Here's the thing: Why would he use that mode of speaking to someone right in front of him? For Angrod and Aegnor's benefit? It just doesn't seem to fit. It also seems more dramatic to allow them to confront him directly.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
EXT. FENS OF SERCH (WEST) - DAY
EDHELLOS runs into GOTHMOG.
GOTHMOG
AHA! SAURON'S LITTLE PET!
All the ORCS and TROLLS around Gothmog look at him in confusion. ANGROD and AEGNOR look at him in confusion. Across the battlefield, FINGOLFIN and FINGON look towards Gothmog.
EXT. ARD-GALEN - DAY
The FEANORIANS are riding towards the battle. CELEGORM turns to CURUFIN.
CELEGORM
Who is Sauron?
INT. ANGBAND - DAY
Looking annoyed, MORGOTH slips some noise-cancelling headphones over the Iron Crown.
EXT. TIRION - DAY
FINARFIN looks confused. He turns to a random ELF on the street.
FINARFIN
I guess they have pets over in Middle-earth.
I agree that he wouldn't use a loud voice if he's speaking to Edhellos directly. But if what he is doing is calling the attention of those around him to the fact that he's picked up Sauron's pet...he might have a reason to direct that comment to them, not her. (He probably wouldn't direct the comment to the entire battlefield, of course.....)
So, hey, other balrog not-too-far-away, 'Look, it's Sauron's pet!' And then smash. What does he have to say to Edhellos herself?
If Angrod and Aegnor see him catch (and then kill) Edhellos, they will certainly try to confront him. But I don't know that they'd ever reach Gothmog themselves. Since we want both of them to survive this encounter, they can't have much interaction with Gothmog, I wouldn't think. And Gothmog needs a reason to retreat unrelated to them (Fingolfin's arrival, as you said), so...what are we doing with that scene?
Corey Olsen strenuously objected to Sauron's involvement in this battle. He wants Gothmog to be the commander. He wants the troops (orcs and trolls) to be under Gothmog's command. He wants the strategy to be a simplistic hammer-blow, not a devious plan. (Two-different-waves not being all that devious, let's be honest.) He wants the failure of this battle to reflect poorly on Gothmog. He does *not* want Sauron to agree to serve under Gothmog, or be commanding Gothmog's forces (orcs). So...there's really not a reason to put Sauron on this particular battlefield.....and there's no opportunity to explain to the viewers what he's doing there if he does appear. (Sauron continuing his catch-and-release program independently of Gothmog's military campaign is fine.)
Rhiannon, of course, strenuously objected to Corey Olsen's objection
.
There is a reason for the balrog rule. Villains are less and less scary every time they appear on screen, particularly if there seem to be no serious consequences to the good guys for facing them. (Something that TV Tropes refers to as 'villain decay.') The balrog in Lord of the Rings appears *once* - Durin's Bane can be very scary, and Tolkien builds him up well. While Tolkien occasionally has characters kill dragons without themselves dying, he never portrays a balrog death as being non-fatal to the person who killed the balrog in his post-LotR writings. (Glorfindel and Gandalf got better....) Tolkien used the balrogs in great numbers in his early stories (a role he later filled with trolls; as the balrogs became fewer and fewer in number, leaving only 3-7 who ever lived in his latest writings on the subject. We certainly are going with the later version of very few terrifying fire demons, rather than a whole army of slightly-better-fighters-than-orcs.
So. Given that. We need them to be TERRIFYING FIRE DEMONS every time they appear in battle. They can't just be 'there.' They can't fight the good guys, kill a few extras, and then run off. They have to be devastating and make the audience truly concerned for the lives of the characters facing them. That concern will be diminished every time someone faces them and lives. That concern will not be significantly fed by the deaths of extras. Therefore...we've committed to killing off an actual character the audience has gotten to know and care about in the episodes prior to the battle whenever a balrog enters the fray.
Villain decay is not necessarily inevitable in a long-running TV series or series of films, but it's very likely, and even good writers struggle to avoid it. In Buffy, the vampires are naturally difficult to kill...at first. They get a lot easier over time, so that while at first only a Slayer can handle them, eventually the slayer's completely human (well...) friends can handle it, too. Spike might be rather terrifying at first, but he eventually is mostly a joke (and later a semi-ally). How hard is it to kill a terminator in the first two terminator films? How about in later films/TV shows? Or an Agent in the original Matrix film, versus the 2 sequels? We are going to start killing balrogs eventually. Until then, we need them to come across as nigh invincible (though not actually bullet proof). And even when they die in the Fall of Gondolin...we still need them to be scary later. That's going to be tough to pull off convincingly. Let's not screw it up here.
So, hey, other balrog not-too-far-away, 'Look, it's Sauron's pet!' And then smash. What does he have to say to Edhellos herself?
If Angrod and Aegnor see him catch (and then kill) Edhellos, they will certainly try to confront him. But I don't know that they'd ever reach Gothmog themselves. Since we want both of them to survive this encounter, they can't have much interaction with Gothmog, I wouldn't think. And Gothmog needs a reason to retreat unrelated to them (Fingolfin's arrival, as you said), so...what are we doing with that scene?
Corey Olsen strenuously objected to Sauron's involvement in this battle. He wants Gothmog to be the commander. He wants the troops (orcs and trolls) to be under Gothmog's command. He wants the strategy to be a simplistic hammer-blow, not a devious plan. (Two-different-waves not being all that devious, let's be honest.) He wants the failure of this battle to reflect poorly on Gothmog. He does *not* want Sauron to agree to serve under Gothmog, or be commanding Gothmog's forces (orcs). So...there's really not a reason to put Sauron on this particular battlefield.....and there's no opportunity to explain to the viewers what he's doing there if he does appear. (Sauron continuing his catch-and-release program independently of Gothmog's military campaign is fine.)
Rhiannon, of course, strenuously objected to Corey Olsen's objection
.There is a reason for the balrog rule. Villains are less and less scary every time they appear on screen, particularly if there seem to be no serious consequences to the good guys for facing them. (Something that TV Tropes refers to as 'villain decay.') The balrog in Lord of the Rings appears *once* - Durin's Bane can be very scary, and Tolkien builds him up well. While Tolkien occasionally has characters kill dragons without themselves dying, he never portrays a balrog death as being non-fatal to the person who killed the balrog in his post-LotR writings. (Glorfindel and Gandalf got better....) Tolkien used the balrogs in great numbers in his early stories (a role he later filled with trolls; as the balrogs became fewer and fewer in number, leaving only 3-7 who ever lived in his latest writings on the subject. We certainly are going with the later version of very few terrifying fire demons, rather than a whole army of slightly-better-fighters-than-orcs.
So. Given that. We need them to be TERRIFYING FIRE DEMONS every time they appear in battle. They can't just be 'there.' They can't fight the good guys, kill a few extras, and then run off. They have to be devastating and make the audience truly concerned for the lives of the characters facing them. That concern will be diminished every time someone faces them and lives. That concern will not be significantly fed by the deaths of extras. Therefore...we've committed to killing off an actual character the audience has gotten to know and care about in the episodes prior to the battle whenever a balrog enters the fray.
Villain decay is not necessarily inevitable in a long-running TV series or series of films, but it's very likely, and even good writers struggle to avoid it. In Buffy, the vampires are naturally difficult to kill...at first. They get a lot easier over time, so that while at first only a Slayer can handle them, eventually the slayer's completely human (well...) friends can handle it, too. Spike might be rather terrifying at first, but he eventually is mostly a joke (and later a semi-ally). How hard is it to kill a terminator in the first two terminator films? How about in later films/TV shows? Or an Agent in the original Matrix film, versus the 2 sequels? We are going to start killing balrogs eventually. Until then, we need them to come across as nigh invincible (though not actually bullet proof). And even when they die in the Fall of Gondolin...we still need them to be scary later. That's going to be tough to pull off convincingly. Let's not screw it up here.
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Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Lammoth now echoes with both Morgoth's scream when he faced Ungoliant and "Aha! Sauron's little pet!"
Comedically loud screaming:
...while Saruman's debate with Gandalf and Theoden in the Extended Edition of Peter Jackson's films is comedically conversational tones being used across great distances. (The director apparently did not inform Christopher Lee that for this scene he was meant to be standing on the very top of a tall tower....)
...while Saruman's debate with Gandalf and Theoden in the Extended Edition of Peter Jackson's films is comedically conversational tones being used across great distances. (The director apparently did not inform Christopher Lee that for this scene he was meant to be standing on the very top of a tall tower....)
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Perhaps not too important but my feeling is that Gothmog should call Edhellos ‘slave’ instead of ‘pet’. Slave is crueller and more informative.
He could taunt Edhellos from a distance when he sees her, so that his voice carries not only to her but to anyone at an equal distance (could reach Angrod).
He could taunt Edhellos from a distance when he sees her, so that his voice carries not only to her but to anyone at an equal distance (could reach Angrod).
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
True, but Edhellos wasn't really doing any slave work. That didn't start until after Diriel agreed to serve Morgoth willingly.
She’s his mental slave now.