Session 4-27, 4-28: Post-production Script Review, Parts 3 and 4

It would seem that way if you compare Sauron's failures with Gothmog's successes.

Up until this point, Sauron basically wiped out the Falathrim as a civilization, forced Melian to reveal herself, captured Maedhros, discovered the truth of the Kinslaying, and driven a wedge between the Noldor and the Sindar.

In comparison, Gothmog has sent an army of Orcs after the Sindar, which was almost entirely destroyed. The army he led was roundly defeated by Fëanor's army and he was personally chased off the field by Feanor's sons. Now, he's led yet another army to yet another complete an utter catastrophe. He's been wholly useless this entire season, while everything has come up Sauron the whole time.
Isn’t that what the hosts want? Gothmog’s time to shine will be after Sauron is defeated by Luthien and Huan.
 
But Angrod isn’t dying, and the warning that the Feanorians aren’t coming would sound most credible coming from him.

Sauron sees Edhellos is rushing out into the field of battle and knows so she’s probably going to get killed anyways. Why wouldn’t he just kill her himself?

Angrod isn't dying because you don't want him to die, not because Sauron doesn't want him to die. If Sauron was aware that Edhellos had regained enough control to tell Angrod what happened, it seems much more likely that he would kill Angrod and give Morgoth a chance to reassert his control over Edhellos.

If Gothmog is the one in the scene, it makes a lot more sense for him to kill Edhellos. The motivations are in the wrong place for Angrod to live and Edhellos to die if Sauron is present.

Isn’t that what the hosts want? Gothmog’s time to shine will be after Sauron is defeated by Luthien and Huan.
That's what I'm saying.
 
Angrod isn't dying because you don't want him to die, not because Sauron doesn't want him to die. If Sauron was aware that Edhellos had regained enough control to tell Angrod what happened, it seems much more likely that he would kill Angrod and give Morgoth a chance to reassert his control over Edhellos.
But Morgoth is intentionally “ungagging” Edhellos so she can reveal to Angrod that the Feanorians aren’t coming. Killing Angrod before he has had the chance to tell anyone would not achieve what Morgoth wants. Sauron knows that Angrod is hostile towards the Feanorians and likely to serve his purpose of dividing the houses of the Noldor.

I’m not saying that Sauron wants Angrod to live or that he would hesitate in killing him, but what Sauron sees in that scene is Edhellos released from the Spell of Bottomless Dread by Morgoth so she can tell Angrod that the Feanorians aren’t coming, then Edhellos comes charging at him. Even if Morgoth could reassert control over Edhellos, she would be in the middle of the battlefield and likely immediately killed or, if she survived, under suspicion from the other Elves due to her strange behavior.
 
But Morgoth is intentionally “ungagging” Edhellos so she can reveal to Angrod that the Feanorians aren’t coming. Killing Angrod before he has had the chance to tell anyone would not achieve what Morgoth wants. Sauron knows that Angrod is hostile towards the Feanorians and likely to serve his purpose of dividing the houses of the Noldor.

This is a new suggestion. Up until this point, Edhellos' moment of lucidity has been of her own making, at least in my understanding.

I guess I'm just not clear on why Morgoth & Co. would _want_ the Noldor to know that there could be sleeper agents amongst them before that plot is fully formed. And I'm not sure I understand demonstrating that the Fëanoreans aren't coming because Morgoth intervened helps Morgoth either. If anything, it would imply that the Fëanoreans would have come otherwise. Also, why would Morgoth reveal this to someone who likely isn't walking away from this battlefield anyway, since Maedhros isn't coming.
 
This is a new suggestion. Up until this point, Edhellos' moment of lucidity has been of her own making, at least in my understanding.

I guess I'm just not clear on why Morgoth & Co. would _want_ the Noldor to know that there could be sleeper agents amongst them before that plot is fully formed. And I'm not sure I understand demonstrating that the Fëanoreans aren't coming because Morgoth intervened helps Morgoth either. If anything, it would imply that the Fëanoreans would have come otherwise. Also, why would Morgoth reveal this to someone who likely isn't walking away from this battlefield anyway, since Maedhros isn't coming.
From our script outline: “ Morgoth releases her, 'ungagging' her. She breaks down, a distraught confession of what Morgoth forced her to do.”
 
Ah! He's remembered!


Ahem... Ok, I went back and looked at it and remember why it made sense to me then. Morgoth thought they were all going to die, so it didn't matter that Angrod knew. He wouldn't have time to tell anyone.

And it is triggered by Angrod's hope in the Fëanoreans, a place we brought him to (a bit prematurely in my mind) to give him a full arc, because this was the last time we would see him.

If he is to survive, it would be kind of better if that change had a stronger motivation, like the actual arrival of the Fëanoreans. In which case, his attempt to enliven Edhellos' spirit is actually hollow. He doesn't actually believe it. She could mock him for that.... I don't know. Initially, the reason Morgoth did that was because he couldn't resist tormenting Angrod. And he has no problem tossing Edhellos aside.

I'm just trying to think this through, I don't actually have an endpoint in mind for this stream of consciousness.

Edit: Ultimately, I don't see Sauron doing evil just for kicks and giggles, or being as willing as Morgoth to throw away a useful tool. Sauron also doesn't seem like the kind of person (at this stage) to assume this battle is a foregone conclusion. And that is all assuming he even has full knowledge of what Morgoth is doing with Edhellos in real time.


At any rate, I would say that if Sauron were present at the battle or involved in some way, it really damages the believeability of the fact that Maedhros gets the drop on them immediately after. The cavalry have to go all the way around Gothmog's army without being detected by anyone they can't immediately run down. I brought this objection up before. I just don't buy Sauron on this field.
 
Ah! He's remembered!


Ahem... Ok, I went back and looked at it and remember why it made sense to me then. Morgoth thought they were all going to die, so it didn't matter that Angrod knew. He wouldn't have time to tell anyone.

And it is triggered by Angrod's hope in the Fëanoreans, a place we brought him to (a bit prematurely in my mind) to give him a full arc, because this was the last time we would see him.

If he is to survive, it would be kind of better if that change had a stronger motivation, like the actual arrival of the Fëanoreans. In which case, his attempt to enliven Edhellos' spirit is actually hollow. He doesn't actually believe it. She could mock him for that.... I don't know. Initially, the reason Morgoth did that was because he couldn't resist tormenting Angrod. And he has no problem tossing Edhellos aside.

I'm just trying to think this through, I don't actually have an endpoint in mind for this stream of consciousness.

Edit: Ultimately, I don't see Sauron doing evil just for kicks and giggles, or being as willing as Morgoth to throw away a useful tool. Sauron also doesn't seem like the kind of person (at this stage) to assume this battle is a foregone conclusion. And that is all assuming he even has full knowledge of what Morgoth is doing with Edhellos in real time.


At any rate, I would say that if Sauron were present at the battle or involved in some way, it really damages the believeability of the fact that Maedhros gets the drop on them immediately after. The cavalry have to go all the way around Gothmog's army without being detected by anyone they can't immediately run down. I brought this objection up before. I just don't buy Sauron on this field.
Sauron’s forces can mostly be on the eastern side of the Orc army (the Elven scouts can report that), and the Feanorians can take care of any on the east before they can report to Sauron.
 
Sauron’s forces can mostly be on the eastern side of the Orc army (the Elven scouts can report that), and the Feanorians can take care of any on the east before they can report to Sauron.

A number of events would have to conspire for that to work. Why are they only on the eastern side? Why are there no vampires who can fly away or spot a large cadre of horsemen before they get anywhere close by? For that matter, are wolves and cats that much slower than horses as to be easily run down? And ultimately, what are they doing there that couldn't be more easily done in the relatively unprotected settlements anywhere else? If anything, I'd be more inclined to expect Sauron around the army on the coast.
 
A number of events would have to conspire for that to work. Why are they only on the eastern side? Why are there no vampires who can fly away or spot a large cadre of horsemen before they get anywhere close by? For that matter, are wolves and cats that much slower than horses as to be easily run down? And ultimately, what are they doing there that couldn't be more easily done in the relatively unprotected settlements anywhere else? If anything, I'd be more inclined to expect Sauron around the army on the coast.
In an earlier version of the script, I had Fingon and his small group of archers (who would eventually become his mounted archers who face Glaurung) shooting down lots of Vampires, but I took this out because the hosts didn't want Sauron's forces to fight in the battle. The hosts also didn't like the Werewolves attacking Vinyamar, but maybe I could bring those things back and emphasize that they are staying on the edges of the battle and serving directly under Sauron, not Gothmog.
 
In an earlier version of the script, I had Fingon and his small group of archers (who would eventually become his mounted archers who face Glaurung) shooting down lots of Vampires, but I took this out because the hosts didn't want Sauron's forces to fight in the battle. The hosts also didn't like the Werewolves attacking Vinyamar, but maybe I could bring those things back and emphasize that they are staying on the edges of the battle and serving directly under Sauron, not Gothmog.

So, if that's the case, how does Celegorm cover so much open ground undetected?
 
So, if that's the case, how does Celegorm cover so much open ground undetected?
The Feanorians or the other Noldor kill or prevent Sauron's spies from reporting. Maybe the bad guys are so overconfident that they do not have many spies in the east. Also, the Feanorians do not need to completely sneak up on Gothmog's army.

I don't think this is a problem unique to the presence of Sauron. Even if the wolves and vampires and cats were not there, the Feanorians would still have to prevent Orcs from reporting their approach.
 
The Feanorians or the other Noldor kill or prevent Sauron's spies from reporting. Maybe the bad guys are so overconfident that they do not have many spies in the east. Also, the Feanorians do not need to completely sneak up on Gothmog's army.

I don't think this is a problem unique to the presence of Sauron. Even if the wolves and vampires and cats were not there, the Feanorians would still have to prevent Orcs from reporting their approach.

It isn't just the east that is the problem. It's the north and the west, from which Celegorm's attack will ultimately come, also.

The Fëanoreans may not need to completely sneak up on Gothmog, but they would suffer much fewer casualties if the Orcs have no time to shift their focus. Or, you know, not get surrounded.

And obviously, Orc scouting parties could spot them. The difference is that Orcs are easily run down by cavalry in a way that the other things are not. There just isn't a comparison.

Ultimately, I don't think it's worth it to jump through all these hoops just to get Edhellos' life in Sauron's hand.
 
It isn't just the east that is the problem. It's the north and the west, from which Celegorm's attack will ultimately come, also.

The Fëanoreans may not need to completely sneak up on Gothmog, but they would suffer much fewer casualties if the Orcs have no time to shift their focus. Or, you know, not get surrounded.

And obviously, Orc scouting parties could spot them. The difference is that Orcs are easily run down by cavalry in a way that the other things are not. There just isn't a comparison.
This is something I feel like we can make whatever we need it to be for dramatic purposes. I could come up with countless reasons why Sauron's forces would be elsewhere occupied, but we don't even show them on screen except for the capture (or attempted capture) of Rhogrin. Unless we do something like show the armies moving on the map during the episode, the viewers won't know how far the Gothmog's force extends, which directions they are watching, or where the spies are, and I don't think the Feanorian's surprise attack will reflect any more badly on Sauron than it would on Gothmog.

Ultimately, I don't think it's worth it to jump through all these hoops just to get Edhellos' life in Sauron's hand.
Having already jumped through plenty of hoops, I do think it is worth it. Moreover, I don't think the hoops are that difficult to jump through.
 
This is something I feel like we can make whatever we need it to be for dramatic purposes. I could come up with countless reasons why Sauron's forces would be elsewhere occupied, but we don't even show them on screen except for the capture (or attempted capture) of Rhogrin. Unless we do something like show the armies moving on the map during the episode, the viewers won't know how far the Gothmog's force extends, which directions they are watching, or where the spies are, and I don't think the Feanorian's surprise attack will reflect any more badly on Sauron than it would on Gothmog.


Having already jumped through plenty of hoops, I do think it is worth it. Moreover, I don't think the hoops are that difficult to jump through.


With respect, I disagree. I find it implausible that the agile forces at Sauron's disposal would be as easily outmaneuvered as Gothmog's. I find it difficult to believe that Sauron would ignore the impending defeat of Morgoth's army. I find it hard to imagine that the defeat would not be blamed on Sauron if he knew it was coming and did nothing (which, as I said, seems to me the most likely scenario). I'm incredulous of Sauron engaging in "Evil for the Lolz", even if Morgoth is already there.

In addition, if all of this is happening, we do have to show it on screen to demonstrate how all the pieces are clicking into place through happenstance to engineer the scenario you're looking for.

Maybe you will be able to convince Prof. Olsen that my concerns are unwarranted, but for now, without more compelling evidence, I'm afraid I just can't get onboard with this.
 
With respect, I disagree. I find it implausible that the agile forces at Sauron's disposal would be as easily outmaneuvered as Gothmog's. I find it difficult to believe that Sauron would ignore the impending defeat of Morgoth's army. I find it hard to imagine that the defeat would not be blamed on Sauron if he knew it was coming and did nothing (which, as I said, seems to me the most likely scenario). I'm incredulous of Sauron engaging in "Evil for the Lolz", even if Morgoth is already there.

In addition, if all of this is happening, we do have to show it on screen to demonstrate how all the pieces are clicking into place through happenstance to engineer the scenario you're looking for.

Maybe you will be able to convince Prof. Olsen that my concerns are unwarranted, but for now, without more compelling evidence, I'm afraid I just can't get onboard with this.
What exactly would you need to see to be convinced?
 
Sorry for bursting in in the middle of your discussion. How does Gothmog ‘ungagging’ Edhellos work?
 
What exactly would you need to see to be convinced?

If I knew that, convincing me would likely be easier. I've said from the outset that I couldn't imagine a way Sauron could be present on that battlefield in a way that makes sense. I would need something which doesn't make Sauron either inept or traitorous. He would need to be doing something there which is not more easily done elsewhere. He would need to have convincing motives to kill Edhellos, if he were doing it of his own volition. If it is under orders from Morgoth, he should react the way one normally reacts when ordered to do something that seems pointless. Thus far, I haven't seen any of those.

Sorry for bursting in in the middle of your discussion. How does Gothmog ‘ungagging’ Edhellos work?
It doesn't. It would be Morgoth doing that.
 
If I knew that, convincing me would likely be easier. I've said from the outset that I couldn't imagine a way Sauron could be present on that battlefield in a way that makes sense. I would need something which doesn't make Sauron either inept or traitorous. He would need to be doing something there which is not more easily done elsewhere. He would need to have convincing motives to kill Edhellos, if he were doing it of his own volition. If it is under orders from Morgoth, he should react the way one normally reacts when ordered to do something that seems pointless. Thus far, I haven't seen any of those.
Why does the scenario in my newest script (Sauron reporting to Gothmog about the success of his part of the plan) not work?
 
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