Session 5-01: Pre-production

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Before Tuor arrives in Gondolin, Turgon also interacts with Men when he leaves Gondolin for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. His high opinion of Tuor probably stems in large part from Huor’s sacrifice to save the Gondolindrim alongside Hurin. Plus, there’s the prophecy Huor says to Turgon: “From you and from me a new star shall arise.”
I forgot about that one.
 

Brian Dimmick

Active Member
His high opinion of Tuor probably stems in large part from Huor’s sacrifice to save the Gondolindrim alongside Hurin. Plus, there’s the prophecy Huor says to Turgon: “From you and from me a new star shall arise.”
And also from the fact that he is an emissary of Ulmo.

Turgon will know of MEn before Tuor comes, but he won't know very much about them. He will know generally that they have come to Beleriand and some have allied with the Eldar, and that they are valiant in battle, but he won't know much of anything about their society or traditions. He might not really understand the concept of human mortality either. Of course, Tuor won't know all that much about human society either, having been raised by Sindar.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
And also from the fact that he is an emissary of Ulmo.

Turgon will know of MEn before Tuor comes, but he won't know very much about them. He will know generally that they have come to Beleriand and some have allied with the Eldar, and that they are valiant in battle, but he won't know much of anything about their society or traditions. He might not really understand the concept of human mortality either. Of course, Tuor won't know all that much about human society either, having been raised by Sindar.
Perhaps Hurin and Huor explain something of the sort when they express their desire to leave Gondolin and partake in the deeds of their people, something along the lines of “Men only have so much time in their lives to commit deeds of worth”?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
And also from the fact that he is an emissary of Ulmo.

Turgon will know of MEn before Tuor comes, but he won't know very much about them. He will know generally that they have come to Beleriand and some have allied with the Eldar, and that they are valiant in battle, but he won't know much of anything about their society or traditions. He might not really understand the concept of human mortality either. Of course, Tuor won't know all that much about human society either, having been raised by Sindar.
I would think there would be some interaction between the Sindar of Mithrim and the House of Hador, enough that Tuor could learn their ways.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
That is a good question and quite a controversy!

I thought i remebered that JRRT once stated that the Valar were taller than men but not as Giants... but i could not find that exact quote yet...

Now the tallest man ever was 8'9'' as far as i know, how tall are giants? Treebeard or Ents are somewhat between 10' and 14'.Giant Nan was said to be "as tall or taller than an Elm tree", how tall is an elm?30-100'?

Morgoth is variously likened to a mountain and a tower... the worlds lowest mountain is 486', now how tall is a tower? In the 1930ies somewhere between 40'- 1000'? He was said to have had his head up high in the clouds, now even low level clouds are up to 6500'. Of course at the time of his duel Morgoth had lost a lot of his former stature...
he was able to wield a normal elven sword and spear, yet when he used his mace/hammer/ flail to hit Fingolfin he it would create "craters" which filled with his blood... now crater is a relative thing...the smallest craters might even be of microspopic size...

In the end -i don't know! All this is so contradictory...

I think i'd go with a treebeard-like size of a "Small giant","tall Ent" or "little tower".14'-40' but closer to 14'...
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That is a good question and quite a controversy!

I thought i remebered that JRRT once stated that the Valar were taller than men but not as Giants... but i could not find that exact quote yet...

Now the tallest man ever was 8'9'' as far as i know, how tall are giants? Treebeard or Ents are somewhat between 10' and 14'.Giant Nan was said to be "as tall or taller than an Elm tree", now tall is an elm?30-100'?

Morgoth is variously likened to a mountain and a tower... the worlds lowest mountain is 486', now how tall is a tower? In the 1930ies somewhere between 40'- 1000'? He was said to have had his head up high in the clouds, now even low level clouds are up to 6500'. Of course atbthe time of his duel Morgoth had lost a lot of his former stature...
he was able to wield a normal elven sword and spear, yet when he used his mace/hammer/ flail to hit Fingolfin he it would create "craters" which filled with his blood... now crater is a relative thing...the smallest ctüraters might even be of microspopic size...

In the end -i don't know! All this is so contradictory...

I think i'd go with a treebeard-like size of a "Small giant","tall Ent" or "little tower".14'-40' but closer to 14'...
Well, the craters created are large enough that Fingolfin can trip up, so the head of Grond might be at least 15 inches (the width of a speed bump). Morgoth's foot would be small enough that a strike from a sword would be enough to cause permanent injury; in The Hobbit films the Black Arrows were scaled up to the size of harpoons and used like a ballista because using a normal-sized arrow would be like expecting a human to die from being poked with a drawing pin. Glaurung can be killed with a mere stab from a sword because he doesn't have protective scales on his underside like Smaug does; even a stab with a knife is enough to grievously wound Glaurung and force him to flee from a battle.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Perhaps Hurin and Huor explain something of the sort when they express their desire to leave Gondolin and partake in the deeds of their people, something along the lines of “Men only have so much time in their lives to commit deeds of worth”?
It will take me a few days to get back up to date, but funny enough time is something I have on my hands now.

However, wouldn't Turgon learn a lot about the House of Hador from Hurin and Huor. He is going to hold the two of them in very high esteem and he will probably later hear from Fingon (are we going to let them speak in the battle) about how Hurin has grown.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
So, related to the discussion of Turgon/men, I was listing to the Children of Hurin today, and heard this in literally the first chapter.
There Turgon the King received them well, when he learned of their kin; for Hador was an Elf-friend, and Ulmo, moreover, had counselled Turgon to deal kindly with the sons of that House, from whom help should come to him at need. Húrin and Huor dwelt as guests in the King’s house for well nigh a year; and it is said that in this time Húrin, whose mind was swift and eager, gained much lore of the Elves, and learned also something of the counsels and purposes of the King.
So, this single sentence hold a couple of implications.

The first is: Ulmo has been counselling Turgon while he's in Gondolin. I don't think there is any other mention of that happening anywhere. Do we show any of this during this season?

Second: Ulmo has been counselling Turgon while he's in Gondolin! Yeah that's the same thing, but a sub-implication to that implication is: if Ulmo was counselling Turgon in Gondolin, why did he stop? I mean, we know Tuor has to get to Gondolin, for Earendil to happen, but what causes him to stop? Do they have some sort of falling out over Turgon's growing love for the things of his own hands? Does Ulmo counsel him to do something he doesn't agree with? Does he do something Ulmo advises against? Does Ulmo just stop showing up? If Ulmo just stops showing up, it could factor into Turgon's reluctance to listen to the message he gives Tuor.

Third: how is Ulmo counselling him? Is it through dreams, as he showed him of Tumladen, or is it physically, as he shows up to Tuor?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, related to the discussion of Turgon/men, I was listing to the Children of Hurin today, and heard this in literally the first chapter.


So, this single sentence hold a couple of implications.

The first is: Ulmo has been counselling Turgon while he's in Gondolin. I don't think there is any other mention of that happening anywhere. Do we show any of this during this season?

Second: Ulmo has been counselling Turgon while he's in Gondolin! Yeah that's the same thing, but a sub-implication to that implication is: if Ulmo was counselling Turgon in Gondolin, why did he stop? I mean, we know Tuor has to get to Gondolin, for Earendil to happen, but what causes him to stop? Do they have some sort of falling out over Turgon's growing love for the things of his own hands? Does Ulmo counsel him to do something he doesn't agree with? Does he do something Ulmo advises against? Does Ulmo just stop showing up? If Ulmo just stops showing up, it could factor into Turgon's reluctance to listen to the message he gives Tuor.

Third: how is Ulmo counselling him? Is it through dreams, as he showed him of Tumladen, or is it physically, as he shows up to Tuor?
On the second point: Ulmo may stop coming due to Morgoth's power affecting the water. This is one of the reasons why Orodreth is told to abandon Nargothrond.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Here are notes for this session. Sorry for the delay in posting.

SilmFilm Session 5-01: Pre-Production

The story so far …
Season 4 stretched from the rescue of Maedhros to. The last episode notably contained the first appearance of Glaurung and the wedding of Galadriel and Celeborn, which was the culmination of their season-long love story. The beginning of Season 4 was focused more in tensions between the Noldor and Sindar and the houses of the Noldor. The latter half of the season contained the building and establishment of Nargothrond and Gondolin, and the villains’ catch-and-release program.

Season 5 will begin by showing Finrod’s discovery of the House of Beor shown from the Men’s perspective. It will end with Fingolfin’s death in single combat with Morgoth, and a montage of mourning that follows.

There was a request for a musical theme that focuses on Sorrow but perhaps contains other themes like Doom and Hope. This theme could be revealed in full after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad but some of it will come after the Dagor Bragollach.

The storylines for Men should tell of how the three houses enter Beleriand and form alliances. We want major stories for Beor, Haleth, Andreth (character from “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” in Morgoth’s Ring, which is the book currently being discussed by the Mythgard Academy), and Hador Lorindol. Potential candidates for minor stories include Amlach, Marach/Malach, Bereg, Magor, Haldad/Haldar, Boromir, Bregolas, and Barahir.

The storylines involving Men should focus on their reactions to/willingness to live with the Elves. Each house will have a different kind of relationship with the Elves. The House of Beor will be most loyal to the Elves. The Haladin will be unwilling to directly serve the Elves but still want to dwell in Beleraind. The House of Hador will be most unsure about Elves and most willing to leave Beleraind and return east until Hador begins to work for Fingon.

House of Beor
Beor – Beor will have a close relationship with the Elves and with Finrod in particular. He will dwell in Nargothrond and will be the first Man to die, which will be a surprise to the Elves because the Dwarves have concealed their mortality from the Elves.
Andreth – Andreth will fall in love with Aegnor, continuing the trend of the House of Beor’s close relationship with the Elves, though of a different kind. Aegnor will reciprocate her love but refuse to marry. Ironically, she, the mortal, will outlive the Elf because Aegnor will be slain in battle. There was some talk of how to handle this – whether she should outlive him by decades or die soon after he does – but nothing was decided. The Hosts have suggested that Andreth be the leader of the House of Beor rather than just a wise-woman. She will be friends with Finrod, and they will have a discussion. It was suggested that Andreth could be the one to pass on Narsil, which is currently Aegnor’s sword.
Barahir – Barahir’s rescue of Finrod in the Dagor Bragollach will again show how loyal the House of Beor is to the Elves.

House of Haleth
Haleth – Haleth will become leader of her people after Haldad and Haldar, her father and brother, are slain in an Orc attack. She will meet Caranthir but refuse to serve him and lead her people through Nan Dungortheb and settle in Brethil. Haleth will demonstrate that it is possible to be a good guy without being closely connected to the Elves. She should be independent but committed to fighting evil. The journey through Nan Dungortheb is kind of the fault of Thingol since he would not let any Men through the land surrounded by the Girdle. It can be an almost Helcaraxe-like ordeal for her people. We need to come up with more personal stories for Haleth, like those that explained why different groups of the Teleri stayed behind in Season 2, so her storyline is not just geopolitical.
Druedain – The Hosts decided that the Druedain should not come into Beleriand with the House of Haleth in Season 5, but they may enter offscreen in Season 6. There was some discussion of the previous decision to attribute the origins of Druedain and Hobbits to a Vala (or Maia) somehow altering a community of Men. This would occur after Melkor had caused the Fall of Man and not be shown onscreen, rather it is our way of knowing what happened.

House of Hador
Amlach – Amlach is most notable for being impersonated by some servant of Morgoth at a debate which resulted in many Men leaving Beleriand and moving back east. The real Amlach then enters the service of Maedhros. This story gives us an opportunity to have some horror/mystery elements. Sauron could potentially be the one who impersonates Amlach since he and Thuringwethil have done that kind of thing in the past.
Hador - Hador can show the turning point in the House of Hador’s relationship with the Elves. He may be present at the debate with fake Amlach. When he is young, Hador can do something distinguishable, perhaps in battle, that earns him the respect of the Elves and helps the Elves to see him as less of a vassal and more of a peer. Hador will be gifted the Dragon-helm, and it will become an heirloom of his house.

In all the houses, there is kind of a split between the founders/older characters and the younger characters who will be around for the Dagor Bragollach.

Elf storylines
Fingolfin’s storyline about the siege and his desire for an offensive should be the most prominent of all the Elf storylines since we will lose Fingolfin at the end of this season.
There will be two love stories: Aredhel and Eol, and Aegnor and Andreth.
Elves will react to Men differently. Finrod will be a friend to them all, particularly the House of Beor. The House of Hador will serve Fingolfin and Fingon. The Green-elves will have unfriendship with the Men who pass through Ossiriand
Galadriel and Celeborn may be involved with the Green-elf storyline because of Celeborn’s sister.

Dwarf storylines
In Season 4, the Dwarves were most prominently involved in the building of Nargothrond and forging Narsil and the Dragon-helm. In Season 5, they will be involved with Eol and Maeglin and with making the Nauglamir. We should find ways to emphasize the parallel between the Silmarils to the Elves and the Nauglamir to the Dwarves. The Nauglamir is the greatest work of Dwarven craftsmanship. There can be behind-the-scenes storylines about the Nauglamir that the Elves do not hear about, even a war between Nogrod and Belegost and kinslaying parallels. We know Belegost from Telchar and Norn, but we do not yet know Nogrod. There could be visitors from Khazad-dum and possibly mithril. Men and Dwarves might meet, but there does not need to be a storyline about them.

Villain storylines
The villain storylines will include Rhogrin and Annael’s escape, fake Amlach, buildup for Dagor Bragollach, and Glaurung rising in Angband politics. Sauron’s relationship with Glaurung can lay groundwork for Gandalf’s fears for Sauron’s relationship with Smaug, and Glaurung might be involved in the hypnotism of Annael. Sauron and Morgoth’s relationship will develop over the course of this season as Gothmog declines in Angband politics. Sauron will be more clearly Morgoth’s chief lieutenant and above Gothmog. Gothmog will be third after Sauron and Glaurung, as evidenced by Sauron getting Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Glaurung ruling Nargothrond at the height of their power. We want the Dagor Bragollach to be a surprise, so political tensions in the villain storylines will conceal the buildup of military strength.

Throughout this session, the Hosts talked about their desire to compress the timeline, reduce the number of generations of Men that pass, and give most of the roles to a handful of main charaters. They do not want the show to focus heavily on genealogy to the point of being confusing like the book and are reluctant to include any character that does not have a role that could be given to someone else. I could not keep track of all the changes they suggested, but these included things like replacing Bregolas with Boromir, having Barahir be the grandson of Beor, and having Amlach be the first leader of the House of Hador. Objections to this included the fact that compressing the timeline would mess with the Elves’ storylines, particularly Maeglin’s, and that these Men could simply exist and lead uneventful lives without being named or mentioned in the story. There was also a suggestion that we change our mode of storytelling with Men and have an episode focused on a single character, which would overlap in the timeline. The Hosts said they were willing to consider not cutting individual Men if someone thought of interesting stories for them.

Next session will include more discussion of the storylines beyond Men’s, and we may get to talking about overarching season themes and an outline of episodes.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
"Objections to this included the fact that compressing the timeline would mess with the Elves’ storylines, particularly Maeglin’s, and that these Men could simply exist and lead uneventful lives without being named or mentioned in the story. "

One of these objectors was me. I think we're still in an Elfy space, and we need to get on the Man train right away. In Elf space, we have been or will be seeing these characters for Ages and seasons, and we need to get to know each of them by name and all their relationships. It's just starting, but on the Man train we're going to have HEAPS of Men to live and die unremarked, even ones who might be heroic and clever and interesting, because Men live such mayfly lives that they have to cram a whole lifetime of "interesting" into a few short decades.

We follow some select Men around in their adventures (Beor, Haleth, Hador, Hurin/Huor, Turin, Tuor, Beren), but with other Men we are mostly just checking in on a family/bloodline at times where their stories matter to the wider Elf story. In many ways, the whole bloodline is the equivalent to a single Elf character, not any individual. So rather than "Beor does A, Boromir does B, Bregolas does C", what we really have is "House of Beor person does A, House of Beor person does B, House of Beor person does C". Maybe we hear a name, maybe we don't. Maybe they are all the same person, maybe they are separated by generations from each other - whatever the timeline requires.

As far as identifying Men, we have to take our clues from context - from name style, or costume, or location, or broad physical characteristics (ie. burly blond dudes are one house, lean dark skin/hair from another, etc.)

If it ends up a bit confusing - well, we are telling an Elf story, and the Elves will be confused by it also. They just start to get to know someone and then they are gone forever. Finrod will probably call Barahir "Beor" at least once.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I personally don’t like lopping off whole swaths of the Houses of Men, mostly of the way it was clumsily done in Game of Thrones with the Targaryens and Baratheons.

In the books: King Aegon V Targaryen has five children: Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daeron, and Rhaelle. Duncan marries Jenny of Oldstones (and that’s how we get Jenny’s Song that Podrick sings in Game of Thrones Season 8), Jaehaerys II marries his sister Shaera, Daeron is KIA, and Rhaelle marries Ormund Baratheon. Jaehaerys succeeds his father as King after Duncan marries Jenny and Aegon V dies in a fire, and leads the Kingdom through the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Jaehaerys‘ children are Aerys II (aka the Mad King) and Rhaella, who marry each other and have three surviving children: Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. Ormund’s son Steffon is the father of Robert, Stannis and Renly Baratheon. This makes Robert and his brothers related to the Targaryens.

In the show: Jaehaerys, Shaera, and Rhaelle are adapted out, and Aerys and Rhaella are moved up to Duncan’s generation. And in the bonus material, Robert says that the Targaryens and Baratheons have intermarried at least a few times. But therein lies the rub: since Rhaelle is adapted out, how are the Baratheons related to the Targaryens (aside from Orys Baratheon being an illegitimate brother of Aegon the Conqueror)? Since Jaehaerys is adapted out, who led Westeros through the War of the Ninepenny Kings? They don’t say.

They also adapted out Daeron Targaryen, the eldest son of Maekar I (and Maester Aemon's elder brother), by saying that Maekar had three sons: Aerion Targaryen (who drank wildfire and died), Maester Aemon, and Aegon V. If they ever adapt Tales of Dunk and Egg, it'll be a problem because Daeron is part of the reason why Dunk gets involved with the Targaryens because Daeron, who doesn’t want to compete, shaves Aegon's head and Aegon, called Egg, asks Dunk if he can be his squire for the Tourney at Ashford.

To get back on track: Fingolfin says that six generations have passed between the coming of Men and a short period of time before the Dagor Bragollach, and that Men have built themselves up in numbers enough to stand against Morgoth. If we lop off a couple generations, wouldn’t that reduce the numbers of Men?

At least, we could acknowledge that six generations of Men have passed, since Fingolfin makes that reference in the first pages of Chapter 18.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Question, because i don't understand yet...
do we take one season and rush quickly throughout the entire history of men until Beren or do we take TWO seasons until we get to Beren? These are 150 years, but one could argue that not much happens in these 150 years...(Edainncome,,fight and settle,battle of sudden flame, capture of minas tirith, eols death, fingolfins duel...)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Question, because i don't understand yet...
do we take one season and rush quickly throughout the entire history of men until Beren or do we take TWO seasons until we get to Beren? These are 150 years, but one could argue that not much happens in these 150 years...(Edainncome,,fight and settle,battle of sudden flame, capture of minas tirith, eols death, fingolfins duel...)
We’re supposed to be on track to have Beren and Luthien next season.
 
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