amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
We have a prime example of such a message in the canon already. "G3" scratched on a rock on Weathertop. Aragorn gets an essay worth of information out of these few lines.
Session 5-02: Scope of the Season
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Could someone remind me of what G3 is? Because I assume it isn't the battle rifle.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
The interpretation of "G3" was "Gandalf was here on October 3rd and had to leave in a hurry from a place he feared might be searched after he was gone"
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So, I've had some other things on my mind of late and haven't really been able to engage with this subject to the extent it deserves. I suppose I need to break this down into bite-size pieces to make it make sense to me. It kind of looks like we're not really getting to know anyone but Beor until almost halfway through the season. Whom of his line are we meeting next and what is their story?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, his son Baran takes over as leader of their house when Beor becomes a vassal of Finrod, and one of Beor’s great-grandsons Bereg is a dissenter at the council of 369 F.A. alongside the Fake Amlach; Bereg then takes 1,000 of his house and the House of Hador and leads them back over the Blue Mountains.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
In this outline, I have episodes between Beor's departure with Finrod for Nargothrond and Beor's death focusing more on the Elf and Dwarf storylines.
We could show Baran taking the House of Beor to Estolad at the end of Episode 1 or beginning of Episode 2, but I doubt we would get to know him as a character. Bereg is the next character we get to know, though I don't think we'll know him outside the episode with the council. To keep it simple for our audience, I think all we need to establish is that he is a descendant of Beor.
For secret messages, typically a symbol that the audience has gotten to know is enough to figure out something. If the 'something' is just 'Díriel is alive', then simply a motif would be enough. We can see her adding the 'design' to the items she makes, and then when it is discovered, the elven reaction shows that they recognize it.
This image is on screen in the final seconds of the anime Code Geass:
The paper crane is symbolic, and is definitely meant to communicate something to the audience.
We see C.C. folding a pink paper crane in the show's second episode:
And Nunnally explains about how folding a thousand paper cranes is to make a wish come true at the beginning of the show.
Most of the end of the second season is about Lelouch trying to make Nunnally's wish for a gentler world come true. Well, in his own way. Sorta. With a lot more drama and destruction than she intended, probably....
But anyway, all we would need to do is have one of the Fëanoreans recognize Díriel's artwork in a symbol of some meaning to her.
So the progression could go:
For the mortal timelines, I imagined most of the 'first wave' would be in the first half of the season, and the 'second wave' in the latter half. So, I was thinking we'd tell the stories of Bëor, Haleth, and Amlach by Episode 8, and Andreth, Hador, and Barahir after Episode 8. (Roughly)
For Aredhel, I'm not sure what I think is the best way to handle her story. I like the idea of her being front and center in some episodes, but at the same time, I think I would prefer to see a gradual unfolding. So, if "Aredhel's unrest in Gondolin" is a B-plot of Episode 1, then we can transition into "Aredhel leaves Gondolin" in Episode 2 (or 3, but the next time we see her, certainly). As long as we get her into Nan Elmoth by Episode 4-5, we should have enough space to tell her story and get her killed before Episode 10.
I do agree with Episode 11 as a 'deep breath before the plunge' episode, where the villains don't appear at all, and we focus on other plot points.
I am not sure how early in the Season Fingolfin should start talking about an offensive aimed at Angband, but I think that should tie in to the story of the people of Hador in some way. They are reluctant to get on board with the elven war until Hador, and that turning point has to hinge on something. Hador is the one working closely with Fingon and Fingolfin. But Hador is a rather late storyline, and Fingolfin's idea shouldn't come out of the blue, but be building earlier.
This image is on screen in the final seconds of the anime Code Geass:
The paper crane is symbolic, and is definitely meant to communicate something to the audience.
We see C.C. folding a pink paper crane in the show's second episode:
And Nunnally explains about how folding a thousand paper cranes is to make a wish come true at the beginning of the show.
Most of the end of the second season is about Lelouch trying to make Nunnally's wish for a gentler world come true. Well, in his own way. Sorta. With a lot more drama and destruction than she intended, probably....
But anyway, all we would need to do is have one of the Fëanoreans recognize Díriel's artwork in a symbol of some meaning to her.
So the progression could go:
- We see Díriel furtively scratching something into the items she's working on; we catch a glimpse of the image.
- We see the orcs march out in gear just like what Díriel was working on.
- In the aftermath of the skirmish, Caranthir pauses on seeing a discarded orc helmet (or other piece of armor); he picks it up, and we see Díriel's scratched image.
- Caranthir later gives the orc helmet to Curufin, who immediately gets out some image of Díriel's that he's been keeping as a memento; the images match. Now, Curufin knows Díriel is alive....
For the mortal timelines, I imagined most of the 'first wave' would be in the first half of the season, and the 'second wave' in the latter half. So, I was thinking we'd tell the stories of Bëor, Haleth, and Amlach by Episode 8, and Andreth, Hador, and Barahir after Episode 8. (Roughly)
For Aredhel, I'm not sure what I think is the best way to handle her story. I like the idea of her being front and center in some episodes, but at the same time, I think I would prefer to see a gradual unfolding. So, if "Aredhel's unrest in Gondolin" is a B-plot of Episode 1, then we can transition into "Aredhel leaves Gondolin" in Episode 2 (or 3, but the next time we see her, certainly). As long as we get her into Nan Elmoth by Episode 4-5, we should have enough space to tell her story and get her killed before Episode 10.
I do agree with Episode 11 as a 'deep breath before the plunge' episode, where the villains don't appear at all, and we focus on other plot points.
I am not sure how early in the Season Fingolfin should start talking about an offensive aimed at Angband, but I think that should tie in to the story of the people of Hador in some way. They are reluctant to get on board with the elven war until Hador, and that turning point has to hinge on something. Hador is the one working closely with Fingon and Fingolfin. But Hador is a rather late storyline, and Fingolfin's idea shouldn't come out of the blue, but be building earlier.
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It seems we are planning for the season to end with Dagor Bragollach. I'm not sure it's the best way to go. If we want the battle to be a surprise, perhaps the last episode isn't the perfect choice. In the Game of Thrones series, the most dramatic episode was always the penultimate one ("Battle of the Bastards", "Blackwater", "The Rains of Castamere", etc). This allowed for a more reflective last episode, or one dealing with the reactions to whatever happened in the penultimate episode. I think it's a good model. In this case, working on season five of SilmFilm, we could put Dagor Bragollach in the penultimate episode, and then show the buildup to Fingolfin's desperate attack in the final episode. It would give his end more space, I think.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps there are a few decades of Hador leading his house well and since they have two of the three Houses of the Edain on board (with the House of Haleth as a wild card), Fingolfin believes that the time is ripe for a final assault on Angband. He doesn’t call for the big push until six generations of Edain have gone by (when Barahir’s generation is in its middle-age).
Oh great! Sorry for the slight confusion.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So my question is: How do we illustrate that Bereg is a descendant of Beor beyond just saying it in dialogue (especially since it is likely that all the characters on-screen would know that information).
Alcarohtar
Active Member
I really like your outline Rhiannon! I would much rather have this than to alter the genealogies, cutting away characters and replacing others. Doing that would be no different from Peter Jackson replacing Glorfindel with Arwen in the Lord of the Rings films.
Maybe we could use the frame in some way to show that there are a lot of characters that exists, but aren't shown on screen. Maybe someone telling a story "The great grandson of Bëor, Bereg led a thousand Men of the House of Bëor away southwards out of Beleriand." I'm not saying we should have the frame being just Elrond telling all this season as a story in the hall of fire though haha.
Maybe we could use the frame in some way to show that there are a lot of characters that exists, but aren't shown on screen. Maybe someone telling a story "The great grandson of Bëor, Bereg led a thousand Men of the House of Bëor away southwards out of Beleriand." I'm not saying we should have the frame being just Elrond telling all this season as a story in the hall of fire though haha.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
He is a leader of the House of Beor and Beor is dead and nearly all succession so far in SIlmFilm has been hereditary. He would also probably look a bit like Beor.
The frame is another way to convey this. (If we have any Hobbits in the frame, they would love learning about the genealogy and want to gets the facts straight)
However, I'm not sure that Bereg's descent from Beor is the most important thing about his character. All it really does is explain why he is in a position of authority, and I think he will already be in this position when we meet him.
Also, how would we establish any kind of relationship between characters any way other than dialogue?
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Actually, if the first time we meet Bereg is at a council of other houses of Men, he probably would be introducing himself and saying who he was descended from.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I find it strange that they would not already know who led his house, but even so, would he not introduce himself as Bereg, son of Baran? Surely they know that Baran is the son of Beor?
There is a difference between natural dialogue that demonstrates a relationship between two characters and an introduction. For example, if we'd shown the same actor playing Bereg interacting with Beor as his grandson, that would certainly help.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I know the hosts talked about having the Men split into two "waves," and that my suggestion for how to handle the timeline does not preserve that. Our introductions to characters and the points at which they die or drop out of the story are staggered. However, I think that this creates a smoother story. Rather than having:
Meet Beor, Haleth, and Amlach! -> Beor, Haleth, and Amlach are dead. -> Now meet Andreth, Hador, and Barahir! -> Andreth and Hador are dead.
it is more like:
Meet Beor! -> Meet Amlach! (Beor is dead) -> Meet Haleth! (Amlach is gone) -> Meet Andreth and Hador! -> Meet Barahir! (Haleth is dead) -> Andreth and Hador are dead.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
He might introduce himself as Bereg son of Baranor, but he would probably also want to say that he is descended from Beor. Beor is the more important ancestor, which will give what Bereg says at the council more weight. I think it is similar to how Aragorn is "son of Arathorn" but also "descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil's son of Minas Ithil." Technically Arathorn is Aragorn's dad, but what really matters is that Aragorn is descended from Elendil and Isildur.
I think the relationship we want to establish between Beor and Bereg is just that the latter is a descendant of the former, not that there is any kind of close emotional connection because they are family. If Bereg had spent some time with his great-grandfather Beor in Nargothrond, he probably would not have been so anti-Elf at the council. There will be other characters for whom that close relationship is more important (Haleth and Haldad, for instance). This kind of relationship of descendant-who-did-not-know-his-ancestor-personally is something that will be new among mortals, and a good way to show how they are different from Elves.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
This actually illustrates part of the problem. Boromir may not know who Arathorn is; even if he's heard the name before, he probably doesn't know Aragorn's lineage. That's why Elrond contextualizes it so. When Bereg shows up at the council, he's dealing with people who have either met or corresponded with his father. There's no reason for him to give that kind of context. It's purely for the benefit of the viewer.
And here's the real issue. The close emotional connection is what is needed to create emotional continuity for the viewer. Also, I've spent a lot of time with my parents, and even my grandparents. My views on a number of issues are quite different. The audience should feel a sense of betrayal when Bereg speaks out against his grandfather's point of view. Instead, some random guy ... oh, was there a line when they named that other guy? anyway, some guy we barely know doesn't like Elves. So what? Why do we care?
If you want this to work, Bereg has to be connected to Beor in a way that makes it clear who he is. Just saying, "Bereg, son of Baran of the line of Beor" doesn't do that. If our story is going to hang on these characters, even casual viewers need to understand who they are.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So what would propel Bereg to speak against those who his grandfather pledged his life to?