Session 5-02: Scope of the Season

Octoburn

Active Member
About the heirloom of Beor/Bereg:
What if this heirloom that Bereg takes with him into Eriador would be seen later among the men living in Eriador/Enedwaith before the Númenoreans arrive in the Second Age? It could hint to the relations between the men east of the Blue Mountains and the Edain. The Númenoreans wouldn't know, but the observant viewers would notice it.
What if the heirloom was a shield? Maybe with the heraldic device of Bëor's house on it?
 

Attachments

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Looking at Episode 2 when the other House of the Edain arrive: who should be leading the House of Hador into Beleriand? If it's Amlach he's going to be ancient by the Fake Amlach plotline and Professor Olsen doesn't think Marach should be around.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Looking at Episode 2 when the other House of the Edain arrive: who should be leading the House of Hador into Beleriand? If it's Amlach he's going to be ancient by the Fake Amlach plotline and Professor Olsen doesn't think Marach should be around.
If we tell the episode from the point of view of the Green-elves/Galadriel and Celeborn, it won’t matter who’s leading the house.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I agree with Haerangil's point - letting real Amlach come back and negate everything that fake!Amlach said couldn't have been the actual plan. This suggests that Amlach has to upset the plan in some way to return. Which I am fine with - that gives him something proactive to do, and shows that everything didn't go *exactly* according to plan. I don't think there's a real advantage to 'giving away' that it wasn't really Amlach at the meeting -sure, it can sow fear and distrust and the discomfort of knowing there are spies among you....but that would suggest that the real goal had been to 'frighten off' the Edain like children at a haunted house.

Speaking of the Villains...here's what they're up to this season:

4The Villains
4.1Sauron puts Annael under the Spell of Not-So-Bottomless Dread
4.1.1Annael 'escapes' with Rhogrin
4.1.2Annael bewitched as Sauron/Thuringwethil's spy
4.1.3Annael's treachery made known to the elves
4.2Fake!Amlach at the Council
4.3Orcs Attack Aglon
4.4Orcs Attack Thargelion
4.5Tevildo's Death?
4.6Glaurung and the internal politics of Angband
4.7Dagor Bragollach
4.7.1Villains kill Aegnor
4.7.2Villains kill Angrod
4.7.3Villains kill Hador
4.8Morgoth's Duel with Fingolfin
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
What events do people see happening in Episode 13?

Obviously, we intend to have the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth. And afterwards, some sort of mourning montage, which includes Thorondor bringing Fingolfin's body to Turgon to build a cairn.

But what leads up to that? Are we still 'mid-battle' when the episode opens, or are we already into 'battle aftermath' by the time we get there? What events are people thinking will happen here?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
What events do people see happening in Episode 13?

Obviously, we intend to have the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth. And afterwards, some sort of mourning montage, which includes Thorondor bringing Fingolfin's body to Turgon to build a cairn.

But what leads up to that? Are we still 'mid-battle' when the episode opens, or are we already into 'battle aftermath' by the time we get there? What events are people thinking will happen here?
I would like to have the battle still going on in Episode 13. I think that so much happens in the Dagor Bragollach that it would be wise to split it into two episodes. We can have the fall of Dorthonion happen in Episode 12, and Episode 13 can focus on the attacks other parts of Beleriand. We can show Finrod coming up from Nargothrond, Fingolfin and Fingon being forced back to Hithlum, Maedhros holding Himring and recapturing Aglon, Glaurung going over to the Feanorian lands to attack Maglor's Gap and Helevorn, Celegorm and Curufin arriving in Nargothrond, etc.

I think it would be a mistake to try to cram the entire battle into Episode 12, making that episode action-packed, then have almost no fighting in Episode 13 until Fingolfin's duel at the end.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I would like to have the battle still going on in Episode 13. I think that so much happens in the Dagor Bragollach that it would be wise to split it into two episodes. We can have the fall of Dorthonion happen in Episode 12, and Episode 13 can focus on the attacks other parts of Beleriand. We can show Finrod coming up from Nargothrond, Fingolfin and Fingon being forced back to Hithlum, Maedhros holding Himring and recapturing Aglon, Glaurung going over to the Feanorian lands to attack Maglor's Gap and Helevorn, Celegorm and Curufin arriving in Nargothrond, etc.

I think it would be a mistake to try to cram the entire battle into Episode 12, making that episode action-packed, then have almost no fighting in Episode 13 until Fingolfin's duel at the end.
I agree. But there's a balancing act to manage here. The initial sequences of the Dagor Bragollach is devestating for the elves, but the success of the enemy could actually have been greater. Finrod advancing and Maedhros recapturing Aglon - these events actually prevent Morgoth from pushing down into more or less the whole of Beleriand. They might seem like small victories, but they make Morgoth decide to retreat and only later order Sauron to take Minas Tirith. We have to balance these events and show them in an order that makes Fingolfin's desperate attack as relatable as possible. It is important, I believe to not only make sure it is clear that Fingolfin does not know antyhing about these small victories. So, the sequence of events would be: 1. Fingolfin is filled with wrath and despair and rides towards Angband. 2. We see Maedhros fighting and winning, and Finrod arriving at the battle and pushing back orc armies. 3. Fingolfin arrives at the gates of Angband and challenges Morgoth.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't kill off Amlach.I would add the missing detail how he escapes a possible murder plot or assassination attempt... that would give the character some more to do and may give us the chance to explore more of his person.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
What events do people see happening in Episode 13?

Obviously, we intend to have the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth. And afterwards, some sort of mourning montage, which includes Thorondor bringing Fingolfin's body to Turgon to build a cairn.

But what leads up to that? Are we still 'mid-battle' when the episode opens, or are we already into 'battle aftermath' by the time we get there? What events are people thinking will happen here?
There’s also the meeting of Finrod and Barahir where the Ring of Barahir is given.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree. But there's a balancing act to manage here. The initial sequences of the Dagor Bragollach is devestating for the elves, but the success of the enemy could actually have been greater. Finrod advancing and Maedhros recapturing Aglon - these events actually prevent Morgoth from pushing down into more or less the whole of Beleriand. They might seem like small victories, but they make Morgoth decide to retreat and only later order Sauron to take Minas Tirith. We have to balance these events and show them in an order that makes Fingolfin's desperate attack as relatable as possible. It is important, I believe to not only make sure it is clear that Fingolfin does not know anything about these small victories. So, the sequence of events would be: 1. Fingolfin is filled with wrath and despair and rides towards Angband. 2. We see Maedhros fighting and winning, and Finrod arriving at the battle and pushing back orc armies. 3. Fingolfin arrives at the gates of Angband and challenges Morgoth.
So what enables Maedhros to retake Aglon? Glaurung is obviously not there since Maedhros would not be able to stand against him, but why not let him hold that gap? He'd be like the strong-side defensive end that nobody could run against, like Reggie White.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree with Haerangil's point - letting real Amlach come back and negate everything that fake!Amlach said couldn't have been the actual plan. This suggests that Amlach has to upset the plan in some way to return. Which I am fine with - that gives him something proactive to do, and shows that everything didn't go *exactly* according to plan. I don't think there's a real advantage to 'giving away' that it wasn't really Amlach at the meeting -sure, it can sow fear and distrust and the discomfort of knowing there are spies among you....but that would suggest that the real goal had been to 'frighten off' the Edain like children at a haunted house.

Speaking of the Villains...here's what they're up to this season:

4The Villains
4.1Sauron puts Annael under the Spell of Not-So-Bottomless Dread
4.1.1Annael 'escapes' with Rhogrin
4.1.2Annael bewitched as Sauron/Thuringwethil's spy
4.1.3Annael's treachery made known to the elves
4.2Fake!Amlach at the Council
4.3Orcs Attack Aglon
4.4Orcs Attack Thargelion
4.5Tevildo's Death?
4.6Glaurung and the internal politics of Angband
4.7Dagor Bragollach
4.7.1Villains kill Aegnor
4.7.2Villains kill Angrod
4.7.3Villains kill Hador
4.8Morgoth's Duel with Fingolfin
For 4.3 and 4.4, why are the attacks on Aglon and Thargelion flip-flopped? I thought the attack at Aglon is during Hador's time and Thargelion is when Haleth was young.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-02: Scope of the Season

Theme of the season

The theme ultimately decided upon was Change. The Silmarillion mentions that things begin to change faster after the rise of the Sun. This theme allows us to incorporate several of the other suggested themes, such as death and mortality, learning/understanding, loss and decline, waiting and inactivity. The Elves will start to go from being agents of change, as they were in Season 4, to reacting to changes that happen around them. Elves trying to bring Men to live with them in their realms is kind of like the Valar bringing the Elves to Valinor.

The main question will be how best to respond to change. Is it to try to preserve things as they are (Elvish perspective) or to accept change and face it (Human perspective)? Different characters will be at different points on the spectrum of preserving the status quo vs. accepting change. Turgon, with his city built as a replica of Tirion and lack of interest in anything outside Gondolin, will be one of the characters most resistant to change. Maedhros will probably be nearer the opposite end of the spectrum. Maedhros has been greatly changed by his experiences after coming to Middle-earth, and his hatred of Morgoth gives him an almost Man-like urgency. Finrod can be the center of the change arc. He can begin the season more interested in preserving things, but his attitude towards change will shift after the death of Beor and especially after his conversation with Andreth. Finrod's oath to Barahir can be the culmination of this arc. Galadriel changed a lot in Season 4, but will not be quite as prominent a character this season. This difference in attitude about change is something that can help differentiate the House of Beor from the House of Hador. The House of Hador will be seen more as allies and peers by the Elves they serve.

This theme of change will be relevant through the rest of the story, particularly at times such as the making of the Elvish Rings of Power and encounters with Elvish realms during LOTR. We will continue to build on it in later seasons, just as we have built on the themes of earlier seasons: Collaboration in Season 1, the Fate of Elves/Elvenhome in Season 2, Rebellion in Season 3, and Reconciliation in Season 4.

Fingolfin
How should we handle Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth? It seems both incredibly heroic and a tragic act of despair. It does not really accomplish much; however, it is bad PR for Morgoth. He has to go fight Fingolfin; otherwise, he would look like a coward, and then Morgoth's captains see him almost defeated by an Elf. Perhaps this could be the moment Sauron loses faith in Morgoth.

Why does Fingolfin decide to essentially abdicate and go charging off to Angband? He is not seeking glory for himself. He is not int the middle of battle and presumably going to die anyway like Eomer. Fingolfin must see this as the only hope. Does he actually believe he can defeat Morgoth? Perhaps he sees that the only hope the Elves have is aid from the Valar and that is why he decides to challenge Morgoth.

In The Book of Lost Tales, Ulmo's warning delivered to Turgon via Tuor is different. Instead of telling Turgon to get his people to safety, Ulmo tells him to march out to battle against Morgoth. If Turgon does this, Ulmo will muster the other Valar and Morgoth will be defeated (Turgon still decides to stay in Gondolin). There could some element of this in Fingolfin's rationale for challenging Morgoth. Fingolfin may receive foresight that Morgoth will be defeated by one of his house. He may believe that if he rides out, the Valar will come aid the Elves. This foresight would actually be referring to Earendil's deeds, though we will have to be careful not to reveal too much of this. It is fitting that the divine intervention Fingolfin's duel does prompt is Thorondor bearing his body to Turgon.

Aredhel
Aredhel will leave Gondolin not only because she is discontented but also because she sees that Turgon is beginning to fail in the task Ulmo set him to. Turgon is beginning to see Gondolin as an end rather than a means of survival. He should not be as far along in this line of thinking as he is when he ignores Ulmo's message through Tuor, but Aredhel can have some insight about where Turgon is headed.

Aredhel's relationship with Eol should be an actual love story, and Eol should be a somewhat sympathetic character at first so the viewers see him as Aredhel sees him. We can emphasize the parallels between Eol and Aredhel's relationship and Galadriel and Celeborn, Thingol and Melian, and Beren and Luthien. Aredhel is looking for someone who will listen to her, and Eol is a sympathetic ear, just as Celeborn was to Galadriel. However, Eol's faults are that he is possessive and narcissistic.

Maeglin will also be possessive and narcissistic, but worse than Eol. Eol is focused on himself and wants everyone to leave him alone. Maeglin is ambitious. He will rebel against Eol's possessiveness and use Aredhel as a means to get to Gondolin, where he desires to rule.

We will discuss the larger arc of Gondolin before deciding how much of Maeglin in Gondolin to show this season. Perhaps Aredhel's story could be split around the pivot point of the season, the first half telling of her leaving Gondolin and meeting Eol, the second half telling of her leaving Nan Elmoth with Maeglin.

Next session, we will begin by deciding the pivot point and begin figuring out the layout of episodes in the season. Suggested pivot points include a time skip moving between generations of Men, the death of Aredhel, and the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, in which Finrod changes his mind about change.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-02: Scope of the Season

Theme of the season

The theme ultimately decided upon was Change. The Silmarillion mentions that things begin to change faster after the rise of the Sun. This theme allows us to incorporate several of the other suggested themes, such as death and mortality, learning/understanding, loss and decline, waiting and inactivity. The Elves will start to go from being agents of change, as they were in Season 4, to reacting to changes that happen around them. Elves trying to bring Men to live with them in their realms is kind of like the Valar bringing the Elves to Valinor.

The main question will be how best to respond to change. Is it to try to preserve things as they are (Elvish perspective) or to accept change and face it (Human perspective)? Different characters will be at different points on the spectrum of preserving the status quo vs. accepting change. Turgon, with his city built as a replica of Tirion and lack of interest in anything outside Gondolin, will be one of the characters most resistant to change. Maedhros will probably be nearer the opposite end of the spectrum. Maedhros has been greatly changed by his experiences after coming to Middle-earth, and his hatred of Morgoth gives him an almost Man-like urgency. Finrod can be the center of the change arc. He can begin the season more interested in preserving things, but his attitude towards change will shift after the death of Beor and especially after his conversation with Andreth. Finrod's oath to Barahir can be the culmination of this arc. Galadriel changed a lot in Season 4, but will not be quite as prominent a character this season. This difference in attitude about change is something that can help differentiate the House of Beor from the House of Hador. The House of Hador will be seen more as allies and peers by the Elves they serve.

This theme of change will be relevant through the rest of the story, particularly at times such as the making of the Elvish Rings of Power and encounters with Elvish realms during LOTR. We will continue to build on it in later seasons, just as we have built on the themes of earlier seasons: Collaboration in Season 1, the Fate of Elves/Elvenhome in Season 2, Rebellion in Season 3, and Reconciliation in Season 4.

Fingolfin
How should we handle Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth? It seems both incredibly heroic and a tragic act of despair. It does not really accomplish much; however, it is bad PR for Morgoth. He has to go fight Fingolfin; otherwise, he would look like a coward, and then Morgoth's captains see him almost defeated by an Elf. Perhaps this could be the moment Sauron loses faith in Morgoth.

Why does Fingolfin decide to essentially abdicate and go charging off to Angband? He is not seeking glory for himself. He is not int the middle of battle and presumably going to die anyway like Eomer. Fingolfin must see this as the only hope. Does he actually believe he can defeat Morgoth? Perhaps he sees that the only hope the Elves have is aid from the Valar and that is why he decides to challenge Morgoth.

In The Book of Lost Tales, Ulmo's warning delivered to Turgon via Tuor is different. Instead of telling Turgon to get his people to safety, Ulmo tells him to march out to battle against Morgoth. If Turgon does this, Ulmo will muster the other Valar and Morgoth will be defeated (Turgon still decides to stay in Gondolin). There could some element of this in Fingolfin's rationale for challenging Morgoth. Fingolfin may receive foresight that Morgoth will be defeated by one of his house. He may believe that if he rides out, the Valar will come aid the Elves. This foresight would actually be referring to Earendil's deeds, though we will have to be careful not to reveal too much of this. It is fitting that the divine intervention Fingolfin's duel does prompt is Thorondor bearing his body to Turgon.

Aredhel
Aredhel will leave Gondolin not only because she is discontented but also because she sees that Turgon is beginning to fail in the task Ulmo set him to. Turgon is beginning to see Gondolin as an end rather than a means of survival. He should not be as far along in this line of thinking as he is when he ignores Ulmo's message through Tuor, but Aredhel can have some insight about where Turgon is headed.

Aredhel's relationship with Eol should be an actual love story, and Eol should be a somewhat sympathetic character at first so the viewers see him as Aredhel sees him. We can emphasize the parallels between Eol and Aredhel's relationship and Galadriel and Celeborn, Thingol and Melian, and Beren and Luthien. Aredhel is looking for someone who will listen to her, and Eol is a sympathetic ear, just as Celeborn was to Galadriel. However, Eol's faults are that he is possessive and narcissistic.

Maeglin will also be possessive and narcissistic, but worse than Eol. Eol is focused on himself and wants everyone to leave him alone. Maeglin is ambitious. He will rebel against Eol's possessiveness and use Aredhel as a means to get to Gondolin, where he desires to rule.

We will discuss the larger arc of Gondolin before deciding how much of Maeglin in Gondolin to show this season. Perhaps Aredhel's story could be split around the pivot point of the season, the first half telling of her leaving Gondolin and meeting Eol, the second half telling of her leaving Nan Elmoth with Maeglin.

Next session, we will begin by deciding the pivot point and begin figuring out the layout of episodes in the season. Suggested pivot points include a time skip moving between generations of Men, the death of Aredhel, and the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, in which Finrod changes his mind about change.
Is there any reason why Maedhros is not supporting Fingolfin for calling for an assault on Angband in the years before the Dagor Bragollach?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Does every plot have to fit with the theme?
Not every plot, no. The Frame has to focus strongly on the theme, and the main plotlines of the season should tie in to it. But in general, there will be some subplots that are tangential to the theme at best. If we ignore the theme, however...then all of our various plotlines lose coherence. So, it is important to tie in what we can to make it seem like one story.


Is there any reason why Maedhros is not supporting Fingolfin for calling for an assault on Angband in the years before the Dagor Bragollach?
That is a good question! Certainly, in the text, Maedhros does not support Fingolfin's plan to attack. Only Angrod and Aegnor seem eager for that plan. So, what is going on? One obvious point is that while Fingolfin has presumably secured the support of the House of Hador, and both Aegnor and Angrod have the House of Bëor in Ladros...the other Elves don't exactly have backup reserves of Men on standby. Maedhros has Amlach; it isn't really suggested that Amlach brought a lot of folks with him.

As we have depicted him, Maedhros has been most eager to attack Angband, and he was more-or-less chafing under Fingolfin's decision to do a Siege instead. So, I think our choices at this point are to go in these directions:
  1. Maedhros does support Fingolfin, but the plan falls through anyway.
  2. Maedhros personally supports Fingolfin, but internal conflict amongst the Fëanoreans leads him to decide against the plan
  3. Maedhros thinks Fingolfin doesn't have the strength, so while he is super eager to fight Angband, he is skeptical that this particular plan will work.
  4. Maedhros wants to cultivate more allies (Dwarves, Men) before launching an assault.
  5. Maedhros has grown more complacent in the past 400 years, and is content with maintaining the status quo.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Not every plot, no. The Frame has to focus strongly on the theme, and the main plotlines of the season should tie in to it. But in general, there will be some subplots that are tangential to the theme at best. If we ignore the theme, however...then all of our various plotlines lose coherence. So, it is important to tie in what we can to make it seem like one story.




That is a good question! Certainly, in the text, Maedhros does not support Fingolfin's plan to attack. Only Angrod and Aegnor seem eager for that plan. So, what is going on? One obvious point is that while Fingolfin has presumably secured the support of the House of Hador, and both Aegnor and Angrod have the House of Bëor in Ladros...the other Elves don't exactly have backup reserves of Men on standby. Maedhros has Amlach; it isn't really suggested that Amlach brought a lot of folks with him.

As we have depicted him, Maedhros has been most eager to attack Angband, and he was more-or-less chafing under Fingolfin's decision to do a Siege instead. So, I think our choices at this point are to go in these directions:
  1. Maedhros does support Fingolfin, but the plan falls through anyway.
  2. Maedhros personally supports Fingolfin, but internal conflict amongst the Fëanoreans leads him to decide against the plan
  3. Maedhros thinks Fingolfin doesn't have the strength, so while he is super eager to fight Angband, he is skeptical that this particular plan will work.
  4. Maedhros wants to cultivate more allies (Dwarves, Men) before launching an assault.
  5. Maedhros has grown more complacent in the past 400 years, and is content with maintaining the status quo.
I think No. 5 is the least likely given what we know of Maedhros and the way his personality is skewed. Either one of the remaining four we can go with.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Not every plot, no. The Frame has to focus strongly on the theme, and the main plotlines of the season should tie in to it. But in general, there will be some subplots that are tangential to the theme at best. If we ignore the theme, however...then all of our various plotlines lose coherence. So, it is important to tie in what we can to make it seem like one story.




That is a good question! Certainly, in the text, Maedhros does not support Fingolfin's plan to attack. Only Angrod and Aegnor seem eager for that plan. So, what is going on? One obvious point is that while Fingolfin has presumably secured the support of the House of Hador, and both Aegnor and Angrod have the House of Bëor in Ladros...the other Elves don't exactly have backup reserves of Men on standby. Maedhros has Amlach; it isn't really suggested that Amlach brought a lot of folks with him.

As we have depicted him, Maedhros has been most eager to attack Angband, and he was more-or-less chafing under Fingolfin's decision to do a Siege instead. So, I think our choices at this point are to go in these directions:
  1. Maedhros does support Fingolfin, but the plan falls through anyway.
  2. Maedhros personally supports Fingolfin, but internal conflict amongst the Fëanoreans leads him to decide against the plan
  3. Maedhros thinks Fingolfin doesn't have the strength, so while he is super eager to fight Angband, he is skeptical that this particular plan will work.
  4. Maedhros wants to cultivate more allies (Dwarves, Men) before launching an assault.
  5. Maedhros has grown more complacent in the past 400 years, and is content with maintaining the status quo.
2-4 aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe a combination thereof?
 
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