Session 5-02: Scope of the Season

Steve, that is not a question that is going to be answered at this stage of the planning. We all know what you have suggested, so when we hammer out the details of the Fake!Amlach and Sauron storylines, we will decide.
 
Steve, that is not a question that is going to be answered at this stage of the planning. We all know what you have suggested, so when we hammer out the details of the Fake!Amlach and Sauron storylines, we will decide.
Right.

Looking at @Rhiannon's chart, where would we establish the growing attraction that Maeglin has for Idril?
 
Elves mature at anywhere from 50 to 100 years old. Fëanor was married before he was 60, so if we wanted a 'teenage' Maeglin going to Gondolin, then I think we could certainly get away with having him 'only' be 40 rather than 80. And if he shows up 10 years later (410 rather than 400), that doesn't really ruin anything. So, yes, we have to keep an eye on Aredhel's timeline and make sure it works, but I don't think we have to worry about slicing 40-50 years out of the timeline and still making that work out.

It doesn't mean we *have* to cut some years here or there, but it's not disastrous if we do. The story is 'meant' to take 146 years. If it 'only' takes 100, we could probably manage. In the end, the years are probably going to seem irrelevant to the audience. They know time is passing, they know people are being born, growing up, and dying....they know this takes time. Exactly how much time? If we don't draw attention to it they aren't going to know that.

I think the Hosts' request is very clearly *not* to start with the timelines and family trees, but rather to start with the story that carries through the season, and then build the details into that organically. Time may be lost in the course of that construction.
I agree that we should be thinking about the story first and the timeline second, but we should not just ignore the timeline, write our own story, then come up with a new timeline. That's creating way more work for ourselves than we need to. If we make our own timeline and genealogies, we would need to be as thorough and consistent as Tolkien was, and I don't want to put the work into doing that if it has already been done. Also, one of the major advantages to using the existing timeline and genealogies is the abundance of reference material. When we get to planning storylines, to planning episodes, and to writing episodes, we can answer questions that arise by looking things up in our books or on the internet.

We will need to alter the timeline a little. I don't think there's any way around that. But I believe our first impulse should be to rearrange, not compress. For example, looking at my outline of episodes (and I'm not saying we have to use this), we can shift around a few eventsto make things happen around the same time.
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I've added some other storylines we discussed, moved the council of Men and the battle at the Haladin's stockade closer together, moved up Aredhel's return to Gondolin by about 20 years, and compressed the fight at Aglon and the gifting of Ladros and Dor-lomin into a single event.

Now, I'll overlay this with the genealogical timeline I made.
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Everything works!

But, let's say, for example, we don't want Haleth to be quite so old in Episode 9. She would be 69, and maybe we still want her to be a youngish-looking warrior. Realistically, Haleth would probably still be played by the same actress who played her when she was in her 30s with a little makeup, but let's make her 10 years younger in the timeline for the fun of it.

First, move Episode 9 up to happen in the 400s. Does some of it happen concurrently with Episode 8? Maybe, maybe not. I didn't overlay them on the timeline for simplicity, but they could be happening at the same time if we needed them to.

Next, make Haleth and Haldar born 5 years later, in 346. This means Haldad becomes a father at 31 and Haldar becomes a father at 20, neither of which I think is unreasonable.

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Again, I'm not saying we have to do this, only giving an example of the approach I believe we should take: small shifts rather than wholly eliminating swaths of time.
 
So for your Episode 11, you have "tying things up". Would this be where Fingolfin says "We've built up enough strength over six generations of Men, let's make the big push"?
 
So for your Episode 11, you have "tying things up". Would this be where Fingolfin says "We've built up enough strength over six generations of Men, let's make the big push"?
No, I suggest having Fingolfin propose that assault against Angband in Episode 10. I think it would be better to have one episode between the discussion of assaulting Angband and Angband's own assault.

There's certainly irony in having Fingolfin talking about the dangers of Angband then being proven right the very next episode, but I think it is almost too much irony. I'm not sure if I can explain the exact feeling I get from having an episode in the middle, but it's kind of like Episode 11 gives a little credibility to those who think everything is peaceful and there is no need to strike. It lulls viewers into a false sense of security to help them be more surprised by the Dagor Bragollach.

Also, I don't think every storyline of this season is going to be resolved by some character being heroic and/or dying in the Dagor Bragollach, so this gives us space to resolve those things.
 
Trust me, I agree that there is much to be said for massaging and tweaking the timeline, rather than eliminating it wholesale.

But I also know that the tendency to be 'detail oriented' can be detrimental at the big picture planning stage (which is where we are now). We don't want to make decisions that will hinder us later (for instance, messing up Tuor and Túrin's branch of the family tree), so certain things do need to exist.

The request to tidy up and compress the family trees and timelines is not a request to hack away at and destroy them - it's a request to simplify them enough that the audience doesn't need a 'cheat sheet' to refer to to keep track of the story. "Now who was that guy again? So-and-so's son? But who was so-and-so? *throws hands up* I dunno, one of the Bëor-people, I can't keep them all straight" is not the viewer experience we are going for. It's okay if the audience doesn't know the exact placement on the family tree of every minor character who appears, but the audience does need to have some familiarity with and attachment to our 'hero' main character Men. Those characters can't be confusing or ambiguous, and their actions in the larger story need to be clear.

I like your first stab at the episode break-down, Rhiannon. It's a good way to get a feel as to how this story will unfold. I think we will have to decide how 'elf-centric' or 'Men-centric' we will want each one to be, and seeing all the stories laid out together is a good way to start looking at that. You did at least give a nod to the dwarf and Angband subplots as well.
 
No, I suggest having Fingolfin propose that assault against Angband in Episode 10. I think it would be better to have one episode between the discussion of assaulting Angband and Angband's own assault.

There's certainly irony in having Fingolfin talking about the dangers of Angband then being proven right the very next episode, but I think it is almost too much irony. I'm not sure if I can explain the exact feeling I get from having an episode in the middle, but it's kind of like Episode 11 gives a little credibility to those who think everything is peaceful and there is no need to strike. It lulls viewers into a false sense of security to help them be more surprised by the Dagor Bragollach.

Also, I don't think every storyline of this season is going to be resolved by some character being heroic and/or dying in the Dagor Bragollach, so this gives us space to resolve those things.
Perhaps Episode 11 could be a series of vignettes of peaceful life in various places in Beleriand?

Also, you suggested a checkup or two on Maeglin for Episodes 9 and 11; perhaps one would be Maeglin showing the Gondolodrim something great that they don't know about and the other would be a scene with Maeglin receiving his title of Lord of the House of the Mole and the seeds of his infatuation with Idril?
 
One of the things the hosts asked for in the last podcast session was some storylines for Haleth that were not just her moving her people from one place to another. I have two suggestions.

1. Haleth's bodyguard

In describing the Haladin, Unfinished Tales says, "many of their warriors were women ... for their chieftaness Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women." I think we could tell the story of Haleth putting this group together and/or some of their adventures.

2. Killing Tevildo

Tevildo is a character from The Book of Lost Tales that we brought back for SilmFilm. He was originally part of the Beren and Luthien story and was defeated by Huan. However, since we also have Draugluin and Sauron for Huan to defeat, it might seem extraneous for Huan to kill Tevildo as well. Therefore, I suggest having Haleth kill Tevildo on her way to or after settling in Brethil.
 
Trust me, I agree that there is much to be said for massaging and tweaking the timeline, rather than eliminating it wholesale.

But I also know that the tendency to be 'detail oriented' can be detrimental at the big picture planning stage (which is where we are now). We don't want to make decisions that will hinder us later (for instance, messing up Tuor and Túrin's branch of the family tree), so certain things do need to exist.

The request to tidy up and compress the family trees and timelines is not a request to hack away at and destroy them - it's a request to simplify them enough that the audience doesn't need a 'cheat sheet' to refer to to keep track of the story. "Now who was that guy again? So-and-so's son? But who was so-and-so? *throws hands up* I dunno, one of the Bëor-people, I can't keep them all straight" is not the viewer experience we are going for. It's okay if the audience doesn't know the exact placement on the family tree of every minor character who appears, but the audience does need to have some familiarity with and attachment to our 'hero' main character Men. Those characters can't be confusing or ambiguous, and their actions in the larger story need to be clear.

I like your first stab at the episode break-down, Rhiannon. It's a good way to get a feel as to how this story will unfold. I think we will have to decide how 'elf-centric' or 'Men-centric' we will want each one to be, and seeing all the stories laid out together is a good way to start looking at that. You did at least give a nod to the dwarf and Angband subplots as well.
I don't think the audience would need a cheat sheet with anything I've suggested. Here's my chart again with the only familial links I think the viewers need to know.

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We know that the current leader of the House of Beor is descended from Beor. By how many generations? Not important. We know Andreth is the daughter of the current chief. We know that Beren is Barahir's son and that Hador's sons are Galdor and Gundor (and they may not even be named). We know about Haleth's family since that is relevant to the story. For everyone else, all that matters is what house they belong to, which can be conveyed by physical appearance and setting.
 
Perhaps Episode 11 could be a series of vignettes of peaceful life in various places in Beleriand?

Also, you suggested a checkup or two on Maeglin for Episodes 9 and 11; perhaps one would be Maeglin showing the Gondolodrim something great that they don't know about and the other would be a scene with Maeglin receiving his title of Lord of the House of the Mole and the seeds of his infatuation with Idril?
Perhaps. Another thing I would like to happen in Gondolin is Turgon explaining in greater detail to Maeglin his plans and visions for Gondolin and expressing faith in Fingolfin and the siege. That would connect Gondolin to the Fingolfin and the siege storyline.
 
One of the things the hosts asked for in the last podcast session was some storylines for Haleth that were not just her moving her people from one place to another. I have two suggestions.

1. Haleth's bodyguard

In describing the Haladin, Unfinished Tales says, "many of their warriors were women ... for their chieftaness Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women." I think we could tell the story of Haleth putting this group together and/or some of their adventures.

2. Killing Tevildo

Tevildo is a character from The Book of Lost Tales that we brought back for SilmFilm. He was originally part of the Beren and Luthien story and was defeated by Huan. However, since we also have Draugluin and Sauron for Huan to defeat, it might seem extraneous for Huan to kill Tevildo as well. Therefore, I suggest having Haleth kill Tevildo on her way to or after settling in Brethil.
The Tevildo death here could work. I suggested killing Tevildo in the four years between the massacre of Barahir’s band of outlaws and Beren’s flight to Doriath, but this might work.
 
I'm still not sure why we need to have Glaurung be assisting Sauron in the "Catch and Release" program. What he does to Nienor seems to be a different sort of memory modification; whenever the spell is lifted for Sauron's small-scale spell of bottomless dread, the victim has no recollection of what happened, while when Glaurung lifts the spell when he dies, the memories of what happens while the victim is under the spell remains.
 
I'm still not sure why we need to have Glaurung be assisting Sauron in the "Catch and Release" program. What he does to Nienor seems to be a different sort of memory modification; whenever the spell is lifted for Sauron's small-scale spell of bottomless dread, the victim has no recollection of what happened, while when Glaurung lifts the spell when he dies, the memories of what happens while the victim is under the spell remains.
I think there is a desire to reveal Glaurung's mind powers before what he does with Turin and Nienor. Glaurung assisting with the "Catch and Release" program may not be the best way to show this, but we probably need to have him do something this season. We still need to work out the logistics of how exactly Sauron manipulates Annael. However, I think that whatever it is, Glaurung would be able to do it if we wanted him to. Just because he uses one sort of memory manipulation with Nienor doesn't mean he can't do other kinds.

In Episode 13 of Season 4, Glaurung's first appearance, we portrayed him mostly as a giant scary fire-breathing monster, with the intent of having another reveal of his ability to talk and manipulate people later in the show. He did do some hypnotism in Episode 13, but this seemed to be fairly rudimentary, just freezing people so they would not attack him or run away. Also, Celegorm was able to resist Glaurung's spell and only pretend to be hypnotized.

Whether or not we have Glaurung working with Sauron depends on what we want to do with their characters over the course of the season. Do we want Glaurung's mind powers revealed early in the season, or do we want to save that for the Dagor Bragollach? Do the other villains know about Glaurung's powers already, or will they be discovering those? Will Glaurung's powers help him rise in Angband politics? Is Sauron going to try to work with Glaurung or only see him as a rival?
 
I think there is a desire to reveal Glaurung's mind powers before what he does with Turin and Nienor. Glaurung assisting with the "Catch and Release" program may not be the best way to show this, but we probably need to have him do something this season. We still need to work out the logistics of how exactly Sauron manipulates Annael. However, I think that whatever it is, Glaurung would be able to do it if we wanted him to. Just because he uses one sort of memory manipulation with Nienor doesn't mean he can't do other kinds.

In Episode 13 of Season 4, Glaurung's first appearance, we portrayed him mostly as a giant scary fire-breathing monster, with the intent of having another reveal of his ability to talk and manipulate people later in the show. He did do some hypnotism in Episode 13, but this seemed to be fairly rudimentary, just freezing people so they would not attack him or run away. Also, Celegorm was able to resist Glaurung's spell and only pretend to be hypnotized.

Whether or not we have Glaurung working with Sauron depends on what we want to do with their characters over the course of the season. Do we want Glaurung's mind powers revealed early in the season, or do we want to save that for the Dagor Bragollach? Do the other villains know about Glaurung's powers already, or will they be discovering those? Will Glaurung's powers help him rise in Angband politics? Is Sauron going to try to work with Glaurung or only see him as a rival?
My idea was that Glaurung hypnotized somebody (probably Orcs, maybe someone as high as Gothmog) into letting him out last season and this would retroactively revealed early on.

There's an idea floating around of having Thurwingwethil assist Sauron in his "Catch and Release" program by having her fly around and her presence close by would activate whatever subroutines Sauron puts in place.

Also, Glaurung doesn't seem to use his mind powers in battle outside of his little excursion last season. The Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad focus on his prowess in battle and when Glaurung uses his powers on Turin to make him go on a wild-goose chase, the Sack of Nargothrond is all but complete.
 
I think there is a desire to reveal Glaurung's mind powers before what he does with Turin and Nienor. Glaurung assisting with the "Catch and Release" program may not be the best way to show this, but we probably need to have him do something this season. We still need to work out the logistics of how exactly Sauron manipulates Annael. However, I think that whatever it is, Glaurung would be able to do it if we wanted him to. Just because he uses one sort of memory manipulation with Nienor doesn't mean he can't do other kinds.

In Episode 13 of Season 4, Glaurung's first appearance, we portrayed him mostly as a giant scary fire-breathing monster, with the intent of having another reveal of his ability to talk and manipulate people later in the show. He did do some hypnotism in Episode 13, but this seemed to be fairly rudimentary, just freezing people so they would not attack him or run away. Also, Celegorm was able to resist Glaurung's spell and only pretend to be hypnotized.

Whether or not we have Glaurung working with Sauron depends on what we want to do with their characters over the course of the season. Do we want Glaurung's mind powers revealed early in the season, or do we want to save that for the Dagor Bragollach? Do the other villains know about Glaurung's powers already, or will they be discovering those? Will Glaurung's powers help him rise in Angband politics? Is Sauron going to try to work with Glaurung or only see him as a rival?
How would we incorporate Glaurung's mind powers into the Dagor Bragollach?
 
A suggestion for the outline: maybe at a certain point in the season, maybe all plotlines for the villains cease, making it look like they're not working on anything while they really are making preparations for the Dagor Bragollach.
 
My idea was that Glaurung hypnotized somebody (probably Orcs, maybe someone as high as Gothmog) into letting him out last season and this would retroactively revealed early on.

There's an idea floating around of having Thurwingwethil assist Sauron in his "Catch and Release" program by having her fly around and her presence close by would activate whatever subroutines Sauron puts in place.

Also, Glaurung doesn't seem to use his mind powers in battle outside of his little excursion last season. The Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arnoediad focus on his prowess in battle and when Glaurung uses his powers on Turin to make him go on a wild-goose chase, the Sack of Nargothrond is all but complete.
How would we incorporate Glaurung's mind powers into the Dagor Bragollach?
Glaurung's teeth, claws, and fire are certainly more effective in battle than hypnotizing individuals, but perhaps he could have some kind of Nazgul-like aura of fear that causes his enemies to flee before him. He could talk in the battle, probably mocking his enemies, but if we want to reveal his powers of manipulation, we probably need to have him talk in a situation that is not the middle of a battle.

I'm not sure hypnotizing an Orc would be the best way to demonstrate Glaurung's powers. I just don't think the wills of Orcs would be that hard to dominate, particularly by another creature of Morgoth. Having him hypnotize Gothmog would be more effective, but it would really diminish Gothmog. Also, how would we bring up something like that? Gothmog isn't going to say that he was hypnotized by Glaurung. I think the best way to demonstrate Glaurung's powers, if that is what we want to do, is to have him do something with them this season.
 
A suggestion for the outline: maybe at a certain point in the season, maybe all plotlines for the villains cease, making it look like they're not working on anything while they really are making preparations for the Dagor Bragollach.
Where in the season do you suggest this point be?
 
Glaurung's teeth, claws, and fire are certainly more effective in battle than hypnotizing individuals, but perhaps he could have some kind of Nazgul-like aura of fear that causes his enemies to flee before him. He could talk in the battle, probably mocking his enemies, but if we want to reveal his powers of manipulation, we probably need to have him talk in a situation that is not the middle of a battle.

I'm not sure hypnotizing an Orc would be the best way to demonstrate Glaurung's powers. I just don't think the wills of Orcs would be that hard to dominate, particularly by another creature of Morgoth. Having him hypnotize Gothmog would be more effective, but it would really diminish Gothmog. Also, how would we bring up something like that? Gothmog isn't going to say that he was hypnotized by Glaurung. I think the best way to demonstrate Glaurung's powers, if that is what we want to do, is to have him do something with them this season.
I really like the aura of fear idea.
Maybe he could hypnotise Tevildo? If we’re thinking of maybe killing Tevildo this season, his story could involve being put under the spell of Glaurung?
 
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