Session 5-03: Season Outline

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Rather than grouping the storylines by house/kindred, I'd like to try looking at them through a different framework. Here are what I think will be the three main storylines. I've broken each of these down into three stages over the course of the season to show their progression and tried to make every connection I could to the theme. This is mostly based on my own ideas, so I would love to know what you guys think and if you have any suggestions for changing this framework.

If you guys agree with this, I think we can try figuring out which of the events in the Gantt chart and that @Alcarohtar has listed fit with which storylines. Some events will obviously fit with more than one.

Storyline 1: The Siege of Angband
Important characters: Fingolfin, Morgoth, Sauron, Maedhros, Angrod & Aegnor, Hador
Involved characters: Fingon, Rhogrin, Annael, Amlach, Bereg, Barahir, Boromir

This storyline deals with the military efforts against Morgoth. Characters will be preparing for and dealing with attacks from Angband, cooperating with new allies, questioning whether to attack Angband now or keep waiting, and questioning whether victory is possible without the aid of the Valar. This connects to the theme in two primary ways: striving to anticipate change by preparing for an attack by Morgoth, and questioning whether to attack first and be instigators of change.

Beginning of season:
How will Men affect the siege?
Middle of season: The siege is mostly getting stronger, but there are some doubts.End of season:
The siege was not enough.
  • The siege has been in place for several hundred years, and nothing major has disturbed it since Glaurung's attack ~50 years ago.
  • Men show up. This means something is going to change with the siege, but will Men aid the Elves or serve Morgoth?
  • Good news - a large part of the House of Beor decides to serve the sons of Finarfin.
  • Bad news - Fake Amlach persuades Bereg and a large portion of Men to go back across the mountains.
  • Rhogrin and Annael escape from Angband. Their stories of what is done to prisoners lead Fingolfin to contemplate attacking Angband, although he doesn't yet.
  • The Houses of Haleth and Hador can help with the siege without directly serving Elves.
  • The reveal of Annael's treachery leads to doubt about the loyalty of escaped prisoners. This weakens the siege a little.
  • Finrod is uncertain the Noldor can defeat Morgoth, but he has estel.
  • Fingolfin believes the time has come to attack Angband, but few support him in this.
  • Morgoth breaks the siege. The sudden change the Elves were dreading has arrived. Their preparations were clearly not enough, though they do prevent Morgoth's forces from completely overwhelming Beleriand.
  • Fingolfin perceives that Morgoth cannot be defeated without the aid of the Valar. He challenges Morgoth, hoping to inspire the Valar to save his people.


Storyline 2: Elves and Men
Important characters: Finrod, Andreth, Beor, Haleth
Involved characters: Aegnor, Caranthir, Thingol, Amlach (Sauron), Bereg, Fingolfin, Barahir, Hador

This storyline is more about the cultural differences and relationships between Elves and Men. Each house of Men will showcase a different approach to working with the Elves on the siege, and other events will show how mortality and immortality lead to different worldviews. This connects to the theme in that Men are generally more willing to embrace change and Elves are more interested in preserving the status quo. Elves and Men will come to better understand one another's worldviews over the course of the season.

Beginning of season:
Initial meetings and discoveries.
Middle of season: The relationship between Elves and Men is more complicated than first thought.End of Season:
Men's time to shine.
  • Men are in awe of Finrod and Elves in general. Many of the House of Beor wants to serve the Elves and learn from them.
  • Men can die, which is a surprise to the Elves.
  • Men in Estolad are not certain they want to work with the Elves. They doubt the existence of the Valar and do not want to waste their short lives. Fake Amlach takes advantage of this and convinces Bereg and his Men to leave.
  • Aegnor and Andreth fall in love, but Aegnor believes that the differences between them are too great and does not marry Andreth.
  • Finrod learns more about the views of Men and Andreth learns about the views of Elves in the Athrabeth. They understand that each race has something to teach the other.
  • The House of Haleth can help with the siege without directly serving Elves.
  • The House of Hador is willing to be allies with the Elves but not serve them.
  • Elves perceive that it is better for Men to dwell apart with their own rulers, so the House of Beor moves to Ladros.
  • Men and Elves continue to have positive interactions as they work together and learn from each other.
  • Men fight alongside Elves in the Dagor Bragollach.
  • Rather than Men serving Elves, Finrod swears an oath to serve Barahir and his descendants.


Storyline 3: Beleriandic Politics (Eol, Sindar, Green-elves, and Dwarves)
Important characters: Aredhel, Eol, Turgon, Maeglin, Thingol, Finrod
Involved characters: Galathil, Galadriel, Celeborn, Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, some Dwarf characters

This storyline is kind of a catchall for the other stories we want to tell. However, I believe that we can make some connections between them. Our miscellaneous stories all deal with how the return of the Noldor and the coming of Men have affected those already in Beleriand and whether those groups will be friends with them. This connects to the theme in a slightly different way than the other two. The changes have mostly happened already, and this storyline is about how others react to them.

Beginning of season:
Anger and hatred.
Middle of season: Getting past this hatred
(or not, in Eol's case)
End of season:
Everyone is getting along.
  • Green-elves, resistant to change, do not want Men in Ossiriand.
  • Thingol, also resistant to change, does not want Men in his realm.
  • The Dwarves are friendly with the Noldor, particularly Finrod and the sons of Feanor.
  • Eol hates the Noldor, especially the sons of Feanor. He attempts to sabotage the relationship between the Noldor and Dwarves.
  • The Dwarves make the Nauglamir with the jewels given to them by Finrod. Some Dwarves want to give this necklace to Finrod; some Dwarves want to keep it. There is conflict, but it is eventually given to Finrod.
  • Thingol grudgingly allows the Haladin to dwell in Brethil
  • Maeglin learns about Gondolin and the Noldor from his mother and the Sindar and Dwarves from his father.
  • Eol's anger at the Noldor for the changes they have brought to Beleriand is evident in his words to Curufin and particularly Turgon.
  • In Gondolin, Maeglin learns more about Noldorin customs and teaches the Gondolindrim what he learned from Eol and the Dwarves. Both Maeglin and the Gondolindrim benefit.
  • The Dwarves are still friends with the Noldor.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I’m beginning to have doubts about Diriel’s role in the escape of the prisoners. I’m not against her helping them, but... If she helps them, why doesn’t she come along? Also, our idea that Curufin finds out that she’s alive must result in him wanting to rescue her, but where does that storyline lead? There’s not going to be any rescue mission. So what happens with that idea? I think I might be more comfortable with the idea that everyone presumes she’s dead, and then she might outlive them all, although in Angband.
I'm also having some problems with Díriel helping them escape Angband. First of all why wouldn't Annael or Rhogrin tell Curufin that she is alive and helped them escape? I don't know if that's gonna work if we rather want her to send out hidden messages telling she's alive through her work.

I tried to connect Curufin's wish to rescue his wife with their response to men coming. Curufin would want to use men to rescue her, but the rest of the feanorians don't want to go to war yet. I used it to bring Caranthir and Amras together, but it could also be a reason for Curufin going to Nargothrond instead of either Maedhros or Amras. Curufin may think that it's impossible to do it by himself, and maybe feels that his brothers have betrayed him and Díriel, maybe he would bring up the oath as a reason for attacking Morgoth and rescuing Díriel. He could maybe go to Nargothrond to get support for an attack on Morgoth next season? Later Maedhros will see that the siege is broken and they can't wait for Morgoth to crush them, Curufin would come back and help organize the union of Maedhros.
I think that we should be looking at Diriel's role in the escape of Rhogrin and Annael in light of her character and what she did in Season 4. In Episode 8, she started organizing an escape attempt immediately after she was brought to Angband. She was very interested in making sure everyone would be included in the escape, even a prisoner who had broken his ankle after falling into a pit. This escape attempt did not work out, as Edhellos revealed it after being placed under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. To prevent Morgoth from placing the Spell of Bottomless Dread on all the prisoners, Diriel promised that they would serve Morgoth willingly.

In Season 5, I think we can assume that Diriel still wants prisoners to escape and wants all the prisoners to escape. I don't think it unreasonable that she would have been working on secret tunnels or some other means to help prisoners escape. However, she would be more cautious and strategic about this than her first attempt. All the prisoners escaping at once would be less likely to succeed than a few disappearing at a time in small groups. If Diriel herself disappears, there could be consequences for the other prisoners. So, she sends Rhogrin and Annael and maybe a few others out first and stays behind to organize future escape attempts.

Curufin learning that Diriel is alive (and I agree that Rhogrin and Annael bringing word of her is the best way for this to happen) would not necessarily make him immediately want to attack Angband to rescue her. When Diriel was taken to Angband, in Season 4, Curufin knew she was likely alive but did not believe the Noldor had the strength for an attack. That's why Celebrimbor sought the aid of Maedhros and Celebrimbor and Orodreth ended up going to Angband together to try to rescue their mothers.

Moreover, If Diriel does as I suggested above, Curufin would understand that the best thing for all the prisoners in Angband is for Diriel to remain where she is. In fact, learning what Diriel is doing could even be a reason Curufin is against attacking Angband. He might fear that, if they attack, Morgoth will just kill the prisoners (kind of like what happens to Gelmir in the Nirnaeth).
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
There’s also a possibility that Rhogrin and Annael believe that Díriel is dead. Something happening during the escape could make them think so.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think that we should be looking at Diriel's role in the escape of Rhogrin and Annael in light of her character and what she did in Season 4. In Episode 8, she started organizing an escape attempt immediately after she was brought to Angband. She was very interested in making sure everyone would be included in the escape, even a prisoner who had broken his ankle after falling into a pit. This escape attempt did not work out, as Edhellos revealed it after being placed under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. To prevent Morgoth from placing the Spell of Bottomless Dread on all the prisoners, Diriel promised that they would serve Morgoth willingly.

In Season 5, I think we can assume that Diriel still wants prisoners to escape and wants all the prisoners to escape. I don't think it unreasonable that she would have been working on secret tunnels or some other means to help prisoners escape. However, she would be more cautious and strategic about this than her first attempt. All the prisoners escaping at once would be less likely to succeed than a few disappearing at a time in small groups. If Diriel herself disappears, there could be consequences for the other prisoners. So, she sends Rhogrin and Annael and maybe a few others out first and stays behind to organize future escape attempts.

Curufin learning that Diriel is alive (and I agree that Rhogrin and Annael bringing word of her is the best way for this to happen) would not necessarily make him immediately want to attack Angband to rescue her. When Diriel was taken to Angband, in Season 4, Curufin knew she was likely alive but did not believe the Noldor had the strength for an attack. That's why Celebrimbor sought the aid of Maedhros and Celebrimbor and Orodreth ended up going to Angband together to try to rescue their mothers.

Moreover, If Diriel does as I suggested above, Curufin would understand that the best thing for all the prisoners in Angband is for Diriel to remain where she is. In fact, learning what Diriel is doing could even be a reason Curufin is against attacking Angband. He might fear that, if they attack, Morgoth will just kill the prisoners (kind of like what happens to Gelmir in the Nirnaeth).
My thought would be that she'd be supplying weapons to prisoners so they could escape, which would (theoretically) explain how Gwindor is able to acquire a sword (and a lamp) when he makes his escape.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
If you guys agree with this, I think we can try figuring out which of the events in the Gantt chart and that @Alcarohtar has listed fit with which storylines. Some events will obviously fit with more than one.
So I imagine something like this:

The Siege of Angband

Beginning of seasonMiddle of seasonEnd of season
Bëor's people joins the forces of the sons of Finarfin. Other men does not want to serve elves (Haleth). Unrest and doubts among men lead to a lot of them leaving Beleriand and the siege.
Some slaves manages to escape Angband.
The loyalty of the escaped slaves comes under doubt. The siege is tested at the skirmish at Aglon, more men joins the elvish forces; Hador in Dor-lómin. Also Haleth vows to protect the borders of Doriath, Boromir gets Ladros.Fingolfin calls for an attack, but it’s denied by the other elves. Their preparations were not enough: Morgoth manages to break the line of strongholds. A desperate Fingolfin rides out to fight Morgoth. The Noldor manages to reclaim some territory, but has lost a lot of fighters.

So here the first part revolves around that some men joins the elvish forced and strengthens the siege, but the problems of mortality reduces the strengthening. Escaped slaves comes to strengthen the siege.
The middle part is about the fear of treason from the escaped slaves weakening the siege, but more men strengthens it again.
At the end Fingolfin's call for war is denied and the siege was not enough to hold Morgoth, but it did stop him from destroying all of Beleriand.

Men and Elves

Beginning of seasonMiddle of seasonEnd of season
Men are in awe of the elves, but their relationship is troubled by the fact that men are mortal and elves are not.Can elves and men marry each other? Elves and men learn to understand their different perspectives. It’s better to live separated.Relations between men and elves are good. Finrod serve men instead of men serving elves.

First part involves the problems of mortality and the unrest it leads to among men, and the council at Estolad.
Middle part is about Andreth/Aegnor's failed romance, the Athrabeth leading to new perspectives on these issues, and the decision that elves and men should live separated from each other.
The end is about elves and men having figured out their problems, but Morgoth attacks. It ends with Finrod serving Barahir's descendants as a change to men serving elves.

Beleriand politics

Beginning of seasonMiddle of seasonEnd of season
Thingol hating men and feanorians, but have a good relationship with Finrod.
Dwarves have good relations with both Finrod, the feanorians and Eöl.
Eöl hates the Noldor and tries to sabotage their relations to the dwarves.
Finrod stops Thingol’s hate towards the Haladin.
Dwarves have a conflict over whether or not to have good relations with the Noldor, but ends up having good relations with them.
Eöl continues to hate the Noldor.
Eöl’s son does not hate the Noldor.

In the beginning Thingol hates men, and the feanorians for not listening him about what to do with men. The dwarves have good relations with Eöl and the Noldor. Eöl wants to turn them against the Noldor.
In the middle of the season Finrod manages to make Thingol stop hating the Haladin, but not ultimately make him like men. Eöl fails on making dwarves hate Noldor.
In the end Eöl dies and his hatred with him. His son does not share his hatred.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
One question: what happens to the relationship between the dwarves and Eöl after Eöl's failed attemt to turn them against the Noldor?

I would imagine that the dwarves would be turned against Eöl. So what if that happens during the trip that Aredhel and Maeglin tries to escape from Nan Elmoth, and Eöl comes earlier home than expected because the dwarves don't want to have anything to do with that guy anymore?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
One question: what happens to the relationship between the dwarves and Eöl after Eöl's failed attemt to turn them against the Noldor?

I would imagine that the dwarves would be turned against Eöl. So what if that happens during the trip that Aredhel and Maeglin tries to escape from Nan Elmoth, and Eöl comes earlier home than expected because the dwarves don't want to have anything to do with that guy anymore?
This will probably depend on what Eol does to turn the Dwarves against the Noldor. If he is actively deceiving them or physically sabotaging trade in some way, the Dwarves will be more upset than if he doing something less severe like spreading rumors.

In the latter case, we could have the Dwarves try to simultaneously maintain good relations with both Eol and the Noldor, which would anger Eol. I agree that disagreements at the midsummer feast at Nogrod would be a good way of explaining why Eol came home early.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This will probably depend on what Eol does to turn the Dwarves against the Noldor. If he is actively deceiving them or physically sabotaging trade in some way, the Dwarves will be more upset than if he doing something less severe like spreading rumors.

In the latter case, we could have the Dwarves try to simultaneously maintain good relations with both Eol and the Noldor, which would anger Eol. I agree that disagreements at the midsummer feast at Nogrod would be a good way of explaining why Eol came home early.
Speaking of the Dwarves, who's supplying Men with arms and armor?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Speaking of the Dwarves, who's supplying Men with arms and armor?
I suspect they mostly make their own. Beyond that, it probably varies by group of Men. Those who live near and are closest with the Elves might get some arms and armor from them, and the Noldor would certainly teach Men better smith craft.

I’m not sure if Men would establish a trading relationship with the Dwarves beyond that which the Elves already have. Maybe there would be some trade between Men and Dwarves in Estolad.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Recall that one of our storylines for this season will be the relationship between the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Dwarves of Belegost. Nogrod 'opted out' of diplomatic overtures towards the Sindar. We're going to see them establish a relationship with Finrod now (and eventually make the Nauglamir). Both Nogrod and Belegost are anti-Angband. That doesn't mean that they see eye to eye on all other issues, though, so the Eöl storyline will no doubt play into that.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Recall that one of our storylines for this season will be the relationship between the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Dwarves of Belegost. Nogrod 'opted out' of diplomatic overtures towards the Sindar. We're going to see them establish a relationship with Finrod now (and eventually make the Nauglamir). Both Nogrod and Belegost are anti-Angband. That doesn't mean that they see eye to eye on all other issues, though, so the Eöl storyline will no doubt play into that.
What sort of issues would the Dwarves be taking with the Elves during this Age, aside from the Nauglamir down the line? My first thought was of Dwarves suspecting Curufin of spreading/teaching Khuzdul as Dwarves are very secretive about their language, until I remembered reading that Men have probably already picked up some Khuzdul.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
I know this is a small question in the scope of the series altogether, but I don't recall it being brought up before.

We are within a season or three of approaching the Fall of Gondolin, and we introduced it last season. Has there been any mention yet of the 12 houses of Gondolin? Again, I know it's a small thing, but could this be something they are discussing/appointing Lords for during some part of the Aredhel/Maeglin story? It could just be a small easter egg, or some such, with Turgon appointing the Lords before having a discussion with Aredhel, or right before Aredhel/Maeglin return.

Would there even be 12 yet? I mean, Rhogrin isn't there yet. Tuor isn't there yet. Maeglin isn't there yet. Would there only be 9, or do these 3 supplant someone else that was a head of those houses?

Just some weird random thoughts I had (that may actually fit in with the planning of the seasons' outline.)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I know this is a small question in the scope of the series altogether, but I don't recall it being brought up before.

We are within a season or three of approaching the Fall of Gondolin, and we introduced it last season. Has there been any mention yet of the 12 houses of Gondolin? Again, I know it's a small thing, but could this be something they are discussing/appointing Lords for during some part of the Aredhel/Maeglin story? It could just be a small easter egg, or some such, with Turgon appointing the Lords before having a discussion with Aredhel, or right before Aredhel/Maeglin return.

Would there even be 12 yet? I mean, Rhogrin isn't there yet. Tuor isn't there yet. Maeglin isn't there yet. Would there only be 9, or do these 3 supplant someone else that was a head of those houses?

Just some weird random thoughts I had (that may actually fit in with the planning of the seasons' outline.)
There's been a mention of them.
Also, check here.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
There's been a mention of them.
Also, check here.
Thanks. Guess I should have read the scripts more carefully
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Houses of Gondolin

House of the King - Turgon
House of the Golden Flower - Glorfindel
House of the Fountain - Ecthelion
House of the Heavenly Arch - Egalmoth
House of the Tree - Galdor (Sindar)
House of the Swallow - Duilin
House of the Harp - Salgant
House of the Pillar - Penlod
House of the Tower of Snow - Aredhel (later Penlod)
House of the Mole - Maeglin
House of the Hammer of Wrath - Rhogrin
House of the Wing - Tuor



The italicized ones don't exist yet. All of the non-italicized characters have been introduced, as the lords of their respective houses. The House of the Tower of Snow is originally Aredhel's, but she will 'pass it off' to someone else (presumably Penlod) when she leaves this season.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Houses of Gondolin

House of the King - Turgon
House of the Golden Flower - Glorfindel
House of the Fountain - Ecthelion
House of the Heavenly Arch - Egalmoth
House of the Tree - Galdor (Sindar)
House of the Swallow - Duilin
House of the Harp - Salgant
House of the Pillar - Penlod
House of the Tower of Snow - Aredhel (later Penlod)
House of the Mole - Maeglin
House of the Hammer of Wrath - Rhogrin
House of the Wing - Tuor



The italicized ones don't exist yet. All of the non-italicized characters have been introduced, as the lords of their respective houses. The House of the Tower of Snow is originally Aredhel's, but she will 'pass it off' to someone else (presumably Penlod) when she leaves this season.
Would we need to establish why Penlod, aside from the books saying so? Is he her second?
 

Octoburn

Active Member
House of the Tree - Galdor (Sindar)
This is actually what got me thinking about this a few days ago... Galdor and... Legolas. Has Legolas been introduced? Should we leave him as Legolas, or change it to his Quenya name, Laiqalassë? One idea for keeping both Legolases is that Prophet knows Legolas if/when they survive the fall of their respective kingdoms, so the Legend of Legolas leading Earendil from Gondolin leads to Oropher's grandson being named Legolas. But we also know elves rarely repeat names. This is also something that will come up when we run across the two Gelmirs.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Ah. This Galdor is the same elf as the later Galdor. So, Galdor of Gondolin was originally a Sinda Elf under Círdan, who moved to Vinyamar. And when Turgon picked up and moved to Gondolin, he moved there with his people. He will (obviously) survive the Fall of Gondolin and be among the refugees who leave the city with Tuor. So in the Third Age, he will be Galdor of the Havens.

Legolas from the Fall of Gondolin in Book of Lost Tales is likely being omitted from our adaptation altogether. Repeating the name is likely rather confusing, and we have plenty of named characters in Gondolin already without needing to introduce more.

I don't know how we'll deal with the two Gelmirs yet, as we haven't really gotten to them.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
This is actually what got me thinking about this a few days ago... Galdor and... Legolas. Has Legolas been introduced? Should we leave him as Legolas, or change it to his Quenya name, Laiqalassë? One idea for keeping both Legolases is that Prophet knows Legolas if/when they survive the fall of their respective kingdoms, so the Legend of Legolas leading Earendil from Gondolin leads to Oropher's grandson being named Legolas. But we also know elves rarely repeat names. This is also something that will come up when we run across the two Gelmirs.
I'm in favor of keeping Legolas and his role in the Fall of Gondolin but changing his name to Laiqalasse. He is such a minor character that I think it would be fine to introduce him while the refugees are fleeing Gondolin, although if there is a random Elf from Gondolin that needs a name this season, Laiqalasse could be the name we use.

I think the best way to handle the two Gelmirs would be to rename one of them. This raises the question: which Gelmir will actually be called Gelmir - Gwindor's brother or Arminas's friend?
 
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