Estel
Session 5-04: The Season 5 Frame
- Thread starter MithLuin
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, to keep a balance, perhaps Bilbo this season and Arwen for the Beren and Luthien season?
Yes but maybe we should make our choice based on which character will serve best as the carrier of the theme?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Estel could definitely carry that as a mortal living in a (theoretically) everlasting realm.
Yes. So one option would be to go with Estel in Rivendell, to start with. He could be told about his ancestry, he could see Arwen (which would match the Aegnor-Andreth story). He could even go to Rohan, towards the end of the season.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Personally, my favorite frame idea so far is Bilbo in Mirkwood. I like that it gives us the opportunity to explore a new place and culture rather than revisiting somewhere we have already had frame stories set and may be returning to for the frame story of Season 6. Also, I feel like the difference between the mortal and immortal perspective in Rivendell is something that has already been addressed, particularly in the frame of Season 1.
The biggest problem with moving up Estel learning of his heritage and meeting Arwen is that many of the details of those events would not make sense before their precedents in the main story. For example, I don't think we should have Aragorn presented with the Ring of Barahir before Barahir is presented with the Ring of Barahir or Aragorn calling Arwen "Tinuviel" before Beren has called Luthien "Tinuviel."
The biggest problem with moving up Estel learning of his heritage and meeting Arwen is that many of the details of those events would not make sense before their precedents in the main story. For example, I don't think we should have Aragorn presented with the Ring of Barahir before Barahir is presented with the Ring of Barahir or Aragorn calling Arwen "Tinuviel" before Beren has called Luthien "Tinuviel."
Right, I agree that Aragorn as the protagonist of the Season 6 Frame makes sense, and that focusing on both the reveal (to him) that he is the heir of Isildur and his first meeting with Arwen.
I don't want to jump into that in Season 5, as we don't want to get ahead of ourselves. There may be a way to stretch out that Frame story for 2 seasons (5 and 6), but it would have to be done carefully. Because I agree that some of that story cannot be told until after Beren/Lúthien is made clear.
I would prefer to save "Adventures of Thorongil" for a later time and use that as the Frame for an entire Season.
Also, while 10-year-old Estel is ostensibly the protagonist of the Season 1 Frame, it's really Gilraen. She and Elrond are duking out whether Estel will be raised as a human or as an elf.
The Season 2 frame was tricky (very little 'happened'), so having another Arwen-centric frame in which she decides to go home to Rivendell will likely be...not much happening. Someone would have to come up with a compelling event in Lothlorien that the Frame could focus on, and then it would end with Arwen's departure (so that she can arrive in Rivendell sometime during the Season 6 Frame).
It might be possible to use the White Council for a Season 5 frame. That would give us the opportunity to bring back some characters we already know (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond) as well as introduce new ones (Radagast, Saruman...who else is on this council??) And since the perspective of everyone on the Council is definitely focused on the longest possible view...that might be a contrast with how quickly things change in Middle-earth. Our Season 3 Frame ended with the bombshell that Sauron had arisen again, and of course our Frame-characters have had very little opportunity to react to that. Perhaps now is time.....
If we go with Bilbo as the protagonist again, I would definitely want the Frame to take place in the Shire. We keep skirting around showing hobbits and the Shire in the frame, and I do want Bilbo's next Frame appearance to be Shire-centric.
I don't want to jump into that in Season 5, as we don't want to get ahead of ourselves. There may be a way to stretch out that Frame story for 2 seasons (5 and 6), but it would have to be done carefully. Because I agree that some of that story cannot be told until after Beren/Lúthien is made clear.
I would prefer to save "Adventures of Thorongil" for a later time and use that as the Frame for an entire Season.
Also, while 10-year-old Estel is ostensibly the protagonist of the Season 1 Frame, it's really Gilraen. She and Elrond are duking out whether Estel will be raised as a human or as an elf.
The Season 2 frame was tricky (very little 'happened'), so having another Arwen-centric frame in which she decides to go home to Rivendell will likely be...not much happening. Someone would have to come up with a compelling event in Lothlorien that the Frame could focus on, and then it would end with Arwen's departure (so that she can arrive in Rivendell sometime during the Season 6 Frame).
It might be possible to use the White Council for a Season 5 frame. That would give us the opportunity to bring back some characters we already know (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond) as well as introduce new ones (Radagast, Saruman...who else is on this council??) And since the perspective of everyone on the Council is definitely focused on the longest possible view...that might be a contrast with how quickly things change in Middle-earth. Our Season 3 Frame ended with the bombshell that Sauron had arisen again, and of course our Frame-characters have had very little opportunity to react to that. Perhaps now is time.....
If we go with Bilbo as the protagonist again, I would definitely want the Frame to take place in the Shire. We keep skirting around showing hobbits and the Shire in the frame, and I do want Bilbo's next Frame appearance to be Shire-centric.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
If we used the White Council as the frame, I think it would need to be more than just a council meeting; otherwise, we would run into the same problem as in Season 2. What else could the council members do besides discuss what is going on in Middle-earth?
Also, I wonder if it might be better to save the White Council for later. It technically happens the year after Aragorn meets Arwen, which puts it in the right place to be the frame or part of the frame for the Nirnaeth season. Then, perhaps the adventures of Thorongil could be the frame for a season that deals with Turin and/or Tuor.
If the frame for Season 5 is Bilbo in the Shire, we would also need something to happen other than people sitting around and talking about change. What kind of conflicts could arise? We should definitely have at some point a frame in the Shire where Bilbo is teaching young Hobbits about his adventures and Elvish lore, but I think we probably want to wait until Frodo and Sam are around to do that. Do we want to tell another story about the Shire before that?
If we do have a frame set in the Shire, our characters do not necessarily all need to be Hobbits. There could be Dwarves, Elves, or Men travelling through, so I think it might be possible to connect a story in the Shire to the larger world.
Ok I can see that my “Aragorn for the Frame” arguments don’t have a lot of supporters (and I see the problems, so that’s fine). But regarding the timing of the stuff about his ancestry and the calling out “Tinuviel!” to Arwen, I think there’s a difference - the call to Arwen will work a hundred times better after we’ve shown Luthien’s story, but I don’t know about the ancestry reveal: If the viewers get to know about the ring of Barahir first (assuming viewers know nothing), they will be helped recognising the ring when Barahir receives it - which could be important given that they, the viewers, will have to deal with a stream of appearing heroes of Men.
I think that the idea of a White Council frame could maybe work better with the theme (although I still like Bilbo in Rivendell).
I think that the idea of a White Council frame could maybe work better with the theme (although I still like Bilbo in Rivendell).
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Yeah, after thinking about it more, I realized that 'Estel learns his ancestry' can be Season 5, which leads directly into 'Aragorn and Arwen meet' for Season 6. So, it is possible to split that up, and in particular to keep Arwen out of Rivendell until Season 6 if we want to go that route.
For the White Council, I was thinking it would parallel Fingolfin's story a little. Some news would prompt a meeting, and then they would gather, and ultimately decide what to do about the threat of Sauron.
Of course, it is important to remember that Bilbo, young Aragorn, AND the White Council could all be in Rivendell, if we wanted them to be.
For the White Council, I was thinking it would parallel Fingolfin's story a little. Some news would prompt a meeting, and then they would gather, and ultimately decide what to do about the threat of Sauron.
Of course, it is important to remember that Bilbo, young Aragorn, AND the White Council could all be in Rivendell, if we wanted them to be.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
For characters that are on the council, the lineup for the Third Age appears to be Saruman (as its head), Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan. Radagast's status as a member is ambiguous, and the discussion that we'd be working around is centered on the Rings of Power.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
In the book, Aragorn meets Arwen the day after he learns of his heritage, so if we do the reveal of Aragorn's ancestry in Season 5, I think it should come at the end of the season and be as close as possible to him meeting Arwen. This would mean it is the frame for the Dagor Bragollach, and we could parallel Finrod giving the ring to Barahir with Elrond giving the ring to Aragorn. However, I don't know how this would fit with the theme of change or any of the other main story events in Episodes 12 and 13. Also, Aragorn is going to parallel Beren throughout Season 6, and I think this would make a better frame for the episode where Beren gets the ring of Barahir.
The "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" does say that Elrond told Aragorn his heritage when "it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond," so those "great deeds," whatever we want them to be, could be the frame for Season 5.
The "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" does say that Elrond told Aragorn his heritage when "it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond," so those "great deeds," whatever we want them to be, could be the frame for Season 5.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So he's going on adventures in between The Hobbit and when he meets Arwen?
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Yes, though certainly not as large as his later adventures.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Well, the other Council we have to compare to is the Council of Elrond. A whole lot of history was covered at the Council of Elrond - every bit of which was known to some but not all of the members. So maybe we have someone at the council who is new (is that even a thing?) or a guest or something, who needs more of the backstory filled in.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
My own favourite two ideas are White Council and Bilbo/Mirkwood.
I don't suppose there's any way we could shoehorn Bilbo into the White Council meeting as a guest or anything? Too much to hope for lol. We don't want Saruman and the Ring in the same room anyway I suppose. Or even Saruman and a Hobbit. Too bad.
I don't suppose there's any way we could shoehorn Bilbo into the White Council meeting as a guest or anything? Too much to hope for lol. We don't want Saruman and the Ring in the same room anyway I suppose. Or even Saruman and a Hobbit. Too bad.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, Saruman begins to keep tabs on the Shire from the last meeting of the White Council onward. Perhaps the presence of Bilbo will trigger this, since Hobbits are known for their insular activities? Even the Tooks never had as grand adventures as Bilbo had.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Another possibility is to have a meeting that is not the full White Council. Gandalf could go to Lorien to visit Celeborn, Galadriel, and Arwen, and they could discuss current events and whether they need to call a meeting of the full council.
Or, Celeborn, Galadriel, and Arwen could come to Mirkwood to visit Gandalf and Thranduil, and Bilbo could be present for that.
Or, Celeborn, Galadriel, and Arwen could come to Mirkwood to visit Gandalf and Thranduil, and Bilbo could be present for that.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
We could have something like that, as the White Council's meetings seem rather infrequent.
A suggestion for a Frame down the road: would a good idea for the Nirnaeth season be the last meeting of the White Council where the Rings of Power are discussed; then Saruman, who is not quite in Sauron's pocket, says his bit about the One Ring being swept all the way down Anduin to the Sea, which keeps the Elves divided; did anybody from Lothlorien show up at the Council of Elrond in Fellowship?
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I really like that idea of the last White Council meeting as the frame for Season 7! Saruman would would make an excellent parallel to the Men Morgoth has swayed to his side.
I don't believe there are any Elves from Lothlorien in the Council of Elrond.