Session 5-04: The Season 5 Frame

[MithLuin]

There are not, no. But the Sons of Elrond did go to Lothlorien between Frodo's arrival in Rivendell and the Fellowship's departure. So, they got a run-down of the results of the Council after the fact, and Elrond didn't send out the Fellowship until he heard back from Lothlorien.

 

[Haakon]

(As you all know): According to the T.A. timeline, Gandalf and Balin visit the Shire in 2949 (which would feel slightly repetitive should we use it), Sauron send three Nazgûl to take over Dol Guldur again, and then, in 2952, Elrond reveals Estel’s ancestry. The Dol Guldur event isn’t easy to construct a frame story on, but we could if we want to. Perhaps Arwen could be involved somehow, maybe along with her brothers.
(But I keep coming back to Estel’s ancestry being the most interesting.)

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Thoughts on a Bilbo Frame in the Shire: Maybe we bring up the Took side of him?

So, the Tooks, in the years before Bilbo, were known for going on grand adventures every so often. My idea is that maybe Bilbo tries to talk to the Tooks about his experiences in the outside world, telling stories and whatnot but nobody seems interested, a stark contrast to the outgoing character they had in years past. And perhaps how he's changed has changed the Hobbits; they seem more insular in the years between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings since no other Hobbits are discussed going on adventures between books, and the only Hobbit that showed any interest in a long time in Bilbo's tales was Frodo, and it took him until Bilbo was almost 100 years old.

 

[Rhiannon]

Thoughts on a Bilbo Frame in the Shire: Maybe we bring up the Took side of him?

So, the Tooks, in the years before Bilbo, were known for going on grand adventures every so often. My idea is that maybe Bilbo tries to talk to the Tooks about his experiences in the outside world, telling stories and whatnot but nobody seems interested, a stark contrast to the outgoing character they had in years past. And perhaps how he's changed has changed the Hobbits; they seem more insular in the years between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings since no other Hobbits are discussed going on adventures between books, and the only Hobbit that showed any interest in a long time in Bilbo's tales was Frodo, and it took him until Bilbo was almost 100 years old.

How does that connect to the theme?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

How does that connect to the theme?

It can be read like this: some things never change as things are meant to endure in the Shire, and the Hobbits would respond to things that are different by being more insular as events seem to pass them by.

 

[MithLuin]

I agree that there are parallels between the insularity of the Shire and the insularity of Doriath, and that we could easily establish parallels between Finrod and Bilbo, as both characters seem quite happy to make friends with other races, while their fellow compatriots are more dubious.

 

[Rhiannon]

My apologies for the delay in posting notes for this session. My internet kept cutting out during the live broadcast, so I missed a lot of it. I am currently watching the video on Twitch to fill in parts that I missed and should have notes posted soon.

The frame decided on was a story about Harad with Gandalf as the protagonist.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

My apologies for the delay in posting notes for this session. My internet kept cutting out during the live broadcast, so I missed a lot of it. I am currently watching the video on Twitch to fill in parts that I missed and should have notes posted soon.

The frame decided on was a story about Harad with Gandalf as the protagonist.

I guess I'm a little surprised that the Frame went in that direction. I don't think Harad was ever discussed in the threads.

 

[Haakon]

I guess I'm a little surprised that the Frame went in that direction. I don't think Harad was ever discussed in the threads.

Yeah I woke up at six A.M. and noticed that the session was still going on, so I logged in, and it took me a while to understand what Corey was talking about. The general idea is exciting I think, although I do wonder about the consequences for other, upcoming seasons.

 

[Rhiannon]

Here are my notes. Sorry again for the delay.

SilmFilm Session 5-04: Frame

The Frame the Hosts decided on was a story about Harad with Gandalf as the protagonist.

Past & Future Frame Stories:

Season 1 - Estel’s lessons from Elrond
Season 2 - Arwen in Lóthlorien contemplates the place of Elves
Season 3 - Teen Estel runs away to join the Dúnedain for a harsh winter
Season 4 - Bilbo travels to Erebor with Gandalf and Balin for the 7-year commemoration of the Battle of Five Armies
Season 5 - ???
Season 6 - Estel learns of his heritage and meets Arwen

What should the Season 5 frame be?

The theme of Season 5 is change, the Elven perception of how the world is changing now that the Sun has risen.

When deciding a frame for a season, we want something that will fit into the timeline and feature major characters but not spoil things that will happen in the main storyline. The frame should be decided based on theme, not story coverage because the main story will eventually cover these events in the Third Age. The frame should look at the theme of the season from a different angle.

Suggestions:

Estel having adventures in and around Rivendell, learning of his heritage from Elrond -> Next season's frame will focus on Aragorn and Arwen. The more build-up we have to their meeting, the less there will be to work with in Season 6.

White Council meeting that parallels Fingolfin's desire to attack Angband -> Too close a parallel to the main story, gives away too much Third Age story, this might make a good frame for the season about the Nirnaeth

Retaking of Dol Guldur, Thranduil in Mirkwood -> An interesting setting that we might want to return to for a later frame, but there is not much that happens there and not much to do with change

Bilbo's journey back to the Shire, including various interactions along the way -> Not much to do with change

Bilbo in the Shire; change-resistant Hobbits parallel change-resistant Elves -> Hobbits are resistant to change, but not in the same way as Elves

Arwen's journey from Lóthlorien to Rivendell before she meets Aragorn -> Next season's frame will focus on Aragorn and Arwen

Sauron's return to Mordor, Khamûl sent to retake Dol Guldur -> This was the most interesting to the Hosts and served as the springboard for the idea that would eventually become the frame.

What will happen in the Season 5 frame?

It could be about reactions to Sauron's return in Gondor and other places. Ganadlf would be a good protagonist because he would go around to different places to spread the news. This would show a series of perspectives without spoiling other events. The focus would not be on developing characters; they would be shown in snapshots. Gandalf could visit individual members of the White Council without showing the whole council.

Human characters would be reacting to the change that is coming because Sauron has declared himself, even though fighting has not broken out yet. The war with Sauron will come in Denethor's lifetime. We would have the human perspective at the beginning of the season and go to the Elvish perspective at the end. The frame story could end with Gandalf telling Elrond the news about Sauron.

How does Sauron openly declare himself. Was it a volcanic eruption? Did he send out the Mouth of Sauron or other emissaries? Is Sauron trying to be nice or threatening? He would be sending emissaries to the east and south to try to recall the Men there to their loyalty. He would probably send the Nazgûl.

Gandalf could be in Harad when Sauron declares himself. Gandalf's name in the south is Incánus. He would be blending in. He might have a community or a friend among the Haradrim that he is close with. He would be trying to encourage the Haradrim to resist the Nazgûl.

This would be an ultimately tragic frame story, kind of like pre-WWII Germany. The Haradrim would not be completely evil, but characters who try to oppose the Nazgûl would fail and die. There might be parallels with the Faithful and Kings Men in Númenor. Gandalf would not really be failing; the people he tries to inspire would make their own choices to turn evil. Gandallf would see what happens when things go wrong. There can be a hopeful note at the end of the season, like a few people escaping.

Maybe we could have the Blue Wizards in the story. Tolkien did not give much information about the Blue Wizards, so we can do what we want with them. Do they suceed or fall to evil? Maybe one could fall to evil and one could remain good. There would be a lot to do to develop the Blue Wizards' characters and storylines, so it would be better not to include them in this frame.

Might Gandalf call in a team of other important characters of this era (Ecthelion, Denethor, Thengel, etc.) to Harad? This would give us a chance to show these characters, but probably would not be good for relations between Gondor and Harad. Gandalf should be inspiring people, not starting military action.

Do we want Harad to be a part of the frame story or the whole frame story? Most of the story in Harad. Gandalf might go back to Minas Tirith in the middle of the season then return to Harad.

What is Gandalf's view on change? He is kind of like the Elves in the main story who are trying to resist change.

Next session will begin discussion of storylines, likely the storylines of Men.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Here are my notes. Sorry again for the delay.

SilmFilm Session 5-04: Frame

The Frame the Hosts decided on was a story about Harad with Gandalf as the protagonist.

Past & Future Frame Stories:

Season 1 - Estel’s lessons from Elrond
Season 2 - Arwen in Lóthlorien contemplates the place of Elves
Season 3 - Teen Estel runs away to join the Dúnedain for a harsh winter
Season 4 - Bilbo travels to Erebor with Gandalf and Balin for the 7-year commemoration of the Battle of Five Armies
Season 5 - ???
Season 6 - Estel learns of his heritage and meets Arwen

What should the Season 5 frame be?

The theme of Season 5 is change, the Elven perception of how the world is changing now that the Sun has risen.

When deciding a frame for a season, we want something that will fit into the timeline and feature major characters but not spoil things that will happen in the main storyline. The frame should be decided based on theme, not story coverage because the main story will eventually cover these events in the Third Age. The frame should look at the theme of the season from a different angle.

Suggestions:

Estel having adventures in and around Rivendell, learning of his heritage from Elrond -> Next season's frame will focus on Aragorn and Arwen. The more build-up we have to their meeting, the less there will be to work with in Season 6.

White Council meeting that parallels Fingolfin's desire to attack Angband -> Too close a parallel to the main story, gives away too much Third Age story, this might make a good frame for the season about the Nirnaeth

Retaking of Dol Guldur, Thranduil in Mirkwood -> An interesting setting that we might want to return to for a later frame, but there is not much that happens there and not much to do with change

Bilbo's journey back to the Shire, including various interactions along the way -> Not much to do with change

Bilbo in the Shire; change-resistant Hobbits parallel change-resistant Elves -> Hobbits are resistant to change, but not in the same way as Elves

Arwen's journey from Lóthlorien to Rivendell before she meets Aragorn -> Next season's frame will focus on Aragorn and Arwen

Sauron's return to Mordor, Khamûl sent to retake Dol Guldur -> This was the most interesting to the Hosts and served as the springboard for the idea that would eventually become the frame.

What will happen in the Season 5 frame?

It could be about reactions to Sauron's return in Gondor and other places. Ganadlf would be a good protagonist because he would go around to different places to spread the news. This would show a series of perspectives without spoiling other events. The focus would not be on developing characters; they would be shown in snapshots. Gandalf could visit individual members of the White Council without showing the whole council.

Human characters would be reacting to the change that is coming because Sauron has declared himself, even though fighting has not broken out yet. The war with Sauron will come in Denethor's lifetime. We would have the human perspective at the beginning of the season and go to the Elvish perspective at the end. The frame story could end with Gandalf telling Elrond the news about Sauron.

How does Sauron openly declare himself. Was it a volcanic eruption? Did he send out the Mouth of Sauron or other emissaries? Is Sauron trying to be nice or threatening? He would be sending emissaries to the east and south to try to recall the Men there to their loyalty. He would probably send the Nazgûl.

Gandalf could be in Harad when Sauron declares himself. Gandalf's name in the south is Incánus. He would be blending in. He might have a community or a friend among the Haradrim that he is close with. He would be trying to encourage the Haradrim to resist the Nazgûl.

This would be an ultimately tragic frame story, kind of like pre-WWII Germany. The Haradrim would not be completely evil, but characters who try to oppose the Nazgûl would fail and die. There might be parallels with the Faithful and Kings Men in Númenor. Gandalf would not really be failing; the people he tries to inspire would make their own choices to turn evil. Gandallf would see what happens when things go wrong. There can be a hopeful note at the end of the season, like a few people escaping.

Maybe we could have the Blue Wizards in the story. Tolkien did not give much information about the Blue Wizards, so we can do what we want with them. Do they suceed or fall to evil? Maybe one could fall to evil and one could remain good. There would be a lot to do to develop the Blue Wizards' characters and storylines, so it would be better not to include them in this frame.

Might Gandalf call in a team of other important characters of this era (Ecthelion, Denethor, Thengel, etc.) to Harad? This would give us a chance to show these characters, but probably would not be good for relations between Gondor and Harad. Gandalf should be inspiring people, not starting military action.

Do we want Harad to be a part of the frame story or the whole frame story? Most of the story in Harad. Gandalf might go back to Minas Tirith in the middle of the season then return to Harad.

What is Gandalf's view on change? He is kind of like the Elves in the main story who are trying to resist change.

Next session will begin discussion of storylines, likely the storylines of Men.

I’m still not sold on the Harad storyline for a number of reasons. The people escaping from Harad don’t show up again, so they’re not of much use in the later parts of the story since there’s no dissension in Sauron’s ranks. If Gandalf is against change, he looks like he’s in the wrong if the lesson is that change is a good thing. Also, Gandalf seems to keep counsel with Elrond and the Elves; the Haradrim seem to be outside his skillset, and how could he not be able to counsel them whilst he wears Narya, the Ring of Fire, which is supposed to be more powerful than the Rings worn by the Nazgul?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Here are my notes. Sorry again for the delay.

SilmFilm Session 5-04: Frame

The Frame the Hosts decided on was a story about Harad with Gandalf as the protagonist.

Past & Future Frame Stories:

Season 1 - Estel’s lessons from Elrond
Season 2 - Arwen in Lóthlorien contemplates the place of Elves
Season 3 - Teen Estel runs away to join the Dúnedain for a harsh winter
Season 4 - Bilbo travels to Erebor with Gandalf and Balin for the 7-year commemoration of the Battle of Five Armies
Season 5 - ???
Season 6 - Estel learns of his heritage and meets Arwen

What should the Season 5 frame be?

The theme of Season 5 is change, the Elven perception of how the world is changing now that the Sun has risen.

When deciding a frame for a season, we want something that will fit into the timeline and feature major characters but not spoil things that will happen in the main storyline. The frame should be decided based on theme, not story coverage because the main story will eventually cover these events in the Third Age. The frame should look at the theme of the season from a different angle.

Suggestions:

Estel having adventures in and around Rivendell, learning of his heritage from Elrond -> Next season's frame will focus on Aragorn and Arwen. The more build-up we have to their meeting, the less there will be to work with in Season 6.

White Council meeting that parallels Fingolfin's desire to attack Angband -> Too close a parallel to the main story, gives away too much Third Age story, this might make a good frame for the season about the Nirnaeth

Retaking of Dol Guldur, Thranduil in Mirkwood -> An interesting setting that we might want to return to for a later frame, but there is not much that happens there and not much to do with change

Bilbo's journey back to the Shire, including various interactions along the way -> Not much to do with change

Bilbo in the Shire; change-resistant Hobbits parallel change-resistant Elves -> Hobbits are resistant to change, but not in the same way as Elves

Arwen's journey from Lóthlorien to Rivendell before she meets Aragorn -> Next season's frame will focus on Aragorn and Arwen

Sauron's return to Mordor, Khamûl sent to retake Dol Guldur -> This was the most interesting to the Hosts and served as the springboard for the idea that would eventually become the frame.

What will happen in the Season 5 frame?

It could be about reactions to Sauron's return in Gondor and other places. Ganadlf would be a good protagonist because he would go around to different places to spread the news. This would show a series of perspectives without spoiling other events. The focus would not be on developing characters; they would be shown in snapshots. Gandalf could visit individual members of the White Council without showing the whole council.

Human characters would be reacting to the change that is coming because Sauron has declared himself, even though fighting has not broken out yet. The war with Sauron will come in Denethor's lifetime. We would have the human perspective at the beginning of the season and go to the Elvish perspective at the end. The frame story could end with Gandalf telling Elrond the news about Sauron.

How does Sauron openly declare himself. Was it a volcanic eruption? Did he send out the Mouth of Sauron or other emissaries? Is Sauron trying to be nice or threatening? He would be sending emissaries to the east and south to try to recall the Men there to their loyalty. He would probably send the Nazgûl.

Gandalf could be in Harad when Sauron declares himself. Gandalf's name in the south is Incánus. He would be blending in. He might have a community or a friend among the Haradrim that he is close with. He would be trying to encourage the Haradrim to resist the Nazgûl.

This would be an ultimately tragic frame story, kind of like pre-WWII Germany. The Haradrim would not be completely evil, but characters who try to oppose the Nazgûl would fail and die. There might be parallels with the Faithful and Kings Men in Númenor. Gandalf would not really be failing; the people he tries to inspire would make their own choices to turn evil. Gandallf would see what happens when things go wrong. There can be a hopeful note at the end of the season, like a few people escaping.

Maybe we could have the Blue Wizards in the story. Tolkien did not give much information about the Blue Wizards, so we can do what we want with them. Do they suceed or fall to evil? Maybe one could fall to evil and one could remain good. There would be a lot to do to develop the Blue Wizards' characters and storylines, so it would be better not to include them in this frame.

Might Gandalf call in a team of other important characters of this era (Ecthelion, Denethor, Thengel, etc.) to Harad? This would give us a chance to show these characters, but probably would not be good for relations between Gondor and Harad. Gandalf should be inspiring people, not starting military action.

Do we want Harad to be a part of the frame story or the whole frame story? Most of the story in Harad. Gandalf might go back to Minas Tirith in the middle of the season then return to Harad.

What is Gandalf's view on change? He is kind of like the Elves in the main story who are trying to resist change.

Next session will begin discussion of storylines, likely the storylines of Men.

No apology necessary!

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I’m still not sold on the Harad storyline for a number of reasons. The people escaping from Harad don’t show up again, so they’re not of much use in the later parts of the story since there’s no dissension in Sauron’s ranks. If Gandalf is against change, he looks like he’s in the wrong if the lesson is that change is a good thing. Also, Gandalf seems to keep counsel with Elrond and the Elves; the Haradrim seem to be outside his skillset, and how could he not be able to counsel them whilst he wears Narya, the Ring of Fire, which is supposed to be more powerful than the Rings worn by the Nazgul?

I'm super excited about the possibility of using the Frame to open up parts of the story that have hitherto been hidden, as we've done in other frame settings. We don't know there is no dissension in Sauron's ranks. In fact, Sam's musings about the dead enemy soldier he sees suggests that there in fact might be. Gandalf seems to keep counsel with whomever he wishes, so I'm not sure how Harad is out of bounds here. The last question is kind of confusing to me.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I'm super excited about the possibility of using the Frame to open up parts of the story that have hitherto been hidden, as we've done in other frame settings. We don't know there is no dissension in Sauron's ranks. In fact, Sam's musings about the dead enemy soldier he sees suggests that there in fact might be. Gandalf seems to keep counsel with whomever he wishes, so I'm not sure how Harad is out of bounds here. The last question is kind of confusing to me.

If he can’t contest the will of a Nazgul, let alone Sauron, how is the audience going to think he can get the Free Peoples to unite against Sauron?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

If he can’t contest the will of a Nazgul, let alone Sauron, how is the audience going to think he can get the Free Peoples to unite against Sauron?

It's important to remember that Harad is hostile territory for Gandalf. Much more so than Rohan and Gondor. He might be more powerful than the Nazgul, but he isn't going to overwhelm the wills of the people.

 

[Rhiannon]

I’m still not sold on the Harad storyline for a number of reasons. The people escaping from Harad don’t show up again, so they’re not of much use in the later parts of the story since there’s no dissension in Sauron’s ranks. If Gandalf is against change, he looks like he’s in the wrong if the lesson is that change is a good thing. Also, Gandalf seems to keep counsel with Elrond and the Elves; the Haradrim seem to be outside his skillset, and how could he not be able to counsel them whilst he wears Narya, the Ring of Fire, which is supposed to be more powerful than the Rings worn by the Nazgul?

I was surprised by the direction the frame discussion went, but I’m not resistant to it, and I’m excited about the chance we have to explore a part of Middle-earth outside the focus of most of Tolkien’s writings. There are definitely ways this frame story could go badly, but it doesn’t have to.

I think the lesson is not so much that change is good as that it is inevitable, and being willing to deal with this change is good.

It’s wrong to think of the people of Harad (or Gondor or Rohan or the Shire) as just puppets who will sway to the will of the stronger Ring-wielder. Yes, Gandalf is a Maia. Yes, he has Narya. But every person in Harad is an individual capable of making his or her own decisions. Gandalf can inspire someone to do good things, but he won’t force that person to do good things. Whether or not he has the power to do so is irrelevant. He won’t. That’s just not how Gandalf operates

 

[Alcarohtar]

What if Gandalf is assisting some kind of group in Harad that has been trained in magic by the Blue Wizards? The Blue Wizards have maybe travelled further east so they're not there when Gandalf arrives. Maybe this group could try to stop the resurgence of the dark Morgoth centred religion in this area?

 

[Haakon]

I honestly think that Gandalf wouldn’t like to encourage magical training. If he encountered people trained in magic by one of the Blue Wizards, he’d assume that Blue Wizard had failed in his mission, in my opinion. It could make a thrilling element in the Frame though, so I’m not against the basic idea.

 

[Haakon]

It would be interesting if Gandalf finds evidence of the activity of the Blue Wizards, but it isn’t clear to him what happened to them. We could learn about them in future seasons.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I honestly think that Gandalf wouldn’t like to encourage magical training. If he encountered people trained in magic by one of the Blue Wizards, he’d assume that Blue Wizard had failed in his mission, in my opinion. It could make a thrilling element in the Frame though, so I’m not against the basic idea.

Either failed or dead. Anyways it seems rather odd since you can't really teach magic in Tolkien's world; the lowest on the power ranking of those who can wield magic is the Elves.