Session 5-04: The Season 5 Frame

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Either failed or dead. Anyways it seems rather odd since you can't really teach magic in Tolkien's world; the lowest on the power ranking of those who can wield magic is the Elves.

Well, no, that isn't strictly true we know the dwarves of yore made mighty spells. We also know that the Mouth of Sauron learned great sorcery despite being human.

 

[amysrevenge]

I’m still not sold on the Harad storyline for a number of reasons. The people escaping from Harad don’t show up again, so they’re not of much use in the later parts of the story since there’s no dissension in Sauron’s ranks.

On this point, I've beat this drum before (by championing Sauraon driving off many more Men via the Amlach scheme than the PubSil implies), but when you are making up side stories, you can always make numbers things like this work. We know that an army of Haradrim with their oliphaunts arrived at Pelennor Fields. So, if they showed up with 20,000 men and 50 oliphaunts (making up the number), what if they set out with 80,000 men and 200 oliphaunts? And Gandalf's escapees somehow prevent 3 parts of the southern army from ever reaching Gondor? Doesn't change the outcome, but greatly changes how you get there in the background.

 

[Haakon]

JRRT of course wrote only a little about Gandalf in Harad, and as I have understood it, revised the idea later on and said that the wizard never went there at all, but that the South where he was known as Incánus was in fact Gondor. I guess we ignore that and go with his earlier ideas. Roughly, JRRT apparently means that Gandalf went to Harad several times, the first times being during his very earliest years in Middle-earth. So the events we are going to come up with should show him returning to a known place, but that place has changed.

According to these earlier ideas, Incánus means ‘North-spy’. This would give us an idea about how Gandalf operates in Harad.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So if we're going to have Gandalf in Harad, who should be his antagonist? Khamul, right-hand man to the Witch-King, is in Dol Guldur. Would we have a Nazgul or two? Maybe have a mortal man in Harad who is simply very persuasive (would provide a nice contrast to our magical opponents)? The Mouth of Sauron himself?

 

[Haakon]

So if we're going to have Gandalf in Harad, who should be his antagonist? Khamul, right-hand man to the Witch-King, is in Dol Guldur. Would we have a Nazgul or two? Maybe have a mortal man in Harad who is simply very persuasive (would provide a nice contrast to our magical opponents)? The Mouth of Sauron himself?

I think that we could have several powerful and dangerous opponents, giving Gandalf almost impossible odds.
Some thoughts on your suggestions: Three of the Nazgûl are supposed to be Black Numenoreans, so any one (or more) of those could appear, unless we want their later hunt for the ring be their first open appearance (I guess they could have secret meetings with Haradrim leaders, be movers in the shadows). The Mouth is absolutely a candidate. Not sure what role he should play, and he’s supposed to enter the service of the Dark Tower at this very point in time, as it rises again. We will have to think about the timing.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think that we could have several powerful and dangerous opponents, giving Gandalf almost impossible odds.
Some thoughts on your suggestions: Three of the Nazgûl are supposed to be Black Numenoreans, so any one (or more) of those could appear, unless we want their later hunt for the ring be their first open appearance (I guess they could have secret meetings with Haradrim leaders, be movers in the shadows). The Mouth is absolutely a candidate. Not sure what role he should play, and he’s supposed to enter the service of the Dark Tower at this very point in time, as it rises again. We will have to think about the timing.

If we go the Mouth of Sauron route, perhaps his presence is enough to show that Sauron is about to declare himself openly, sort of like a herald.

 

[Haakon]

Well I don’t know, I think he probably joins Sauron and goes to Mordor, where he learns of dark arts and becomes the lieutenant of Barad-dûr, and only later becomes The Mouth. So if we have him here, his subsequent career is probably just known to us, maybe not hinted at in any way. At this point, he should just be a Black Numenorean leader, without any magical skills, who perhaps is enlisted by one of the Nazgûl?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well I don’t know, I think he probably joins Sauron and goes to Mordor, where he learns of dark arts and becomes the lieutenant of Barad-dûr, and only later becomes The Mouth. So if we have him here, his subsequent career is probably just known to us, maybe not hinted at in any way. At this point, he should just be a Black Numenorean leader, without any magical skills, who perhaps is enlisted by one of the Nazgûl?

Oh, I thought he was around for longer than that.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well I don’t know, I think he probably joins Sauron and goes to Mordor, where he learns of dark arts and becomes the lieutenant of Barad-dûr, and only later becomes The Mouth. So if we have him here, his subsequent career is probably just known to us, maybe not hinted at in any way. At this point, he should just be a Black Numenorean leader, without any magical skills, who perhaps is enlisted by one of the Nazgûl?

Well, in that case he'd likely be amongst the Umbarians. We'll get to the Cosairs of Umbar in Thorongil's adventures.

 

[MithLuin]

We have a lot of fleshing out and inventing to do when it comes to Harad (and the Mordor storyline as well, to be honest). I would prefer if we start with the bits of the text that we do have, so that whatever we invent is at least compatible with the glimpses Tolkien hinted at when he referenced these things. Though, as Haakon points out, it is not possible to be consistent with shifting ideas!

I think we will likely want to establish Harad's society. Do they have a king? Some other type of ruler? What is the court like? Gandalf's friends are almost definitely 'outsiders' on some level - living away from the court in their own enclave....right? Or are we thinking that Gandalf is friends with the king/ruler/sultan/what-have-you, and the young son/nephew/upstart at court is the one being swayed by Sauron's emissaries? Definitely a few directions this could go in!

I agree that Khamul the Easterling is elsewhere and not involved here, and obviously Sauron himself will not appear in person.

 

[Haerangil]

The only thing which confused me was that the hosts seemed to believe that just because Sauron had not yet openly revealed himself , Harad was supposed to be somehow free...

Would not there still be something of a Cult or a steward or vassal kings be around? I mean... nobody questions that Mordor was a dark land... just because Sauron was sort of in disguise in Dol Guldur.In a way the sheer existence of Realms such as Angmar or Dol Guldur implies there were Dark realms of sorts all around... even if maybe with somewhat questionable loyalty.I mean... Umbar certainly was... and the evil Kings who conquered Minas Ithil came from somewhere (and the armies they led of course)...

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, that is why my first thought was that Gandalf's friends are somehow removed from that, having some sense of independence from whatever Sauron-friendly regime is in place.....

 

[Haakon]

I think that Harad has a history of being led by the tyrannical Black Numenoreans, and, as far as I can understand the sources, that's still the case at this point. So my earlier thought that something has changed in Harad has to be modified, the change isn't that great, or it is a subtle one: at this time, the Black Numenoreans lose their power or hand it over to Mordor.
In any case, it fits with Gandalf's role as a spy. He has few friends or contacts, and he is probably hated by the ruler/s. His friends are like The Beaver Family in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. There is perhaps a resistance movement, like in German-occupied France or Belgium during WWII, or the rebels in Rouge One and Star Wars IV (when the rebels really are underdogs).

The people of Harad are divided, though, not only in near and far Harad, but in several tribes, and it sounds like there could be a lot of conflict among them. Maybe the Black Numenorean rule has been one of 'divide and conquer', and Sauron now, through puppets, manages to unite several of the tribes?

 

[Haakon]

This is a map of the region. I haven't been able to read JRRT's notes, perhaps someone else can?

We need to differentiate the various forces in the area, and decide in which area - or areas - Incánus moves and has friends, allies and contacts.

Near Harad vs. Far Harad: The peoples of these two regions are apparently not the same. Those who use Mumakil, for example, come out of Far Harad (but likely not all of the tribes in Far Harad use Mumakil). Those of Near Harad have joined forces with the Wainriders earlier. If Gandalf is in Near Harad, perhaps agents of Khand will be a feature.
Umbar is ruled by the Haradrim at this point in time and a home for a new generation of 'Corsairs of Umbar', probably closely related to the Haradrim, if not even merely Southrons themselves - so not definitely Black Numenoreans like they were before. The Corsairs are cruel slavers and raiders. But they also seem to have an active foreign policy, and cooperate with other powers, and not only neighbors. In 2758, Umbar joined a massive coordinated attack with the Men of the Harad and of Dunland against Gondor and Rohan. In 2885, Umbar supported the Haradrim who claimed Harondor, and when Sauron declares himself openly in 2951, Umbar declares its allegiance to him, and the great monument commemorating Ar-Pharazôn's triumph at Umbar is thrown down.

Harondor/South Gondor: Occupied by Haradrim. What does this look like? Patrols, camps? Cities?

 

[Haerangil]

What i can make out is desert of Tumladen... but i think it refers to a place in gondor, not harad.Theres mention of celos and sirith nearby..

From what i remember from hoME are the Barangils, Harwan and Benish Armon, which could be a placename...



I always had theorized that Sauron pretty much controlled the Urban centers while there was a greater level of freedom among the wilder tribes such as Nomads, hill-folk, reclusive mountain men, forest-men and the ,like... which would make some sense because the coastal city centers would have had some black numenorean influence probably, while the more rural or unsettled lands would be less interesting in economical and political sense... so if there were sauronic legates and temples it would be in the urban centers and along the coast and main roads and traderoutes i think

I also thought the short speech the mouth of Sauron gives may indicate a bit of how Sauronic rule looked like for subjugated peoples..

 

[Haakon]

What i can make out is desert of Tumladen... but i think it refers to a place in gondor, not harad.Theres mention of celos and sirith nearby..

Right, it concerns those streams, south of Minas Tirith.

Barangils, Harwan

Barangils seems to be a Gondorian name for southrons. Harwan is an early name for the land of Harad, unless I am mistaken.

Benish Armon

This is apparently a ruin and a cult place, a home for malevolent spirits - the most notable being the spirit of Tevildo! Later used by Queen Beruthiel. It's not really something we could use (the spirit of Tevildo I mean), which saddens me a little.

 

[Haerangil]

Harwan of course refers to Tolkiens theories on Sigelhearwan

Sigelwara Land

Sigelwara Land is the title of an essay by J.R.R. Tolkien, in which is examined the etymology of Sigelwaran (and the more usual form Sigelhearwan) — the Old English...

tolkiengateway.net

I mean... one COULD somehow build in than "Sun-jewel realm" or toy with something like Harwan, Waran, Silhar, Sigil etc. As a nod to that if one needed names for places or ethnicities... i mean, just as an idea.

Barangil looks Sindarin... though it COULD be an indigenous name... he often revised his ideas or wasn't totally sure about names (it looks a bit like odd sindarin, Barangil is also a not very common turkish name).


Benish Armon... there was the "Cat of Benish Armon", he later replaced it with the cats of Queen Beruthiel.Theres not really any connection with the lost tales or Tevildo... it is just some unknown mythical cat.Though i always imagined it to be a placename somehow connected to Beruthiel and Umbar ..

 

[Haakon]

Benish Armon... there was the "Cat of Benish Armon", he later replaced it with the cats of Queen Beruthiel.Theres not really any connection with the lost tales or Tevildo... it is just some unknown mythical cat.Though i always imagined it to be a placename somehow connected to Beruthiel and Umbar ..

Ok I must have stumbled across a faulty source. In the end though, it is connected to Beruthiel and her cats, and she was a Black Numenorean, not unlikely a sorceress of some kind. She could have dealt with Tevildo... I don’t think his spirit was destroyed. (But of course, Tolkien took him out of his stories)

 

[Haerangil]

The MERP (Middle -Earth Role playing game) made that connection too... i thought it was a very nice nod to lost tales... but its non canon.

JRRT just wasnt t very fond of Cats until in older age a very charming cat was able to convert him a little bit... i mean he commented that siamese cats probably were fauna of Mordor, so he used them as sorcerous creatures, they are classic familiars of witches, thats why they are beruthiels pets i think.Though the cat-cult of old egypt may have played into that too...
Benish Armon seems to be modeled after hebrew or at last semitic, maybe some anglo saxon thrown in? Harwan certainly is anglo saxon, Incánus Latin... no idea what his thoughts on haradrim,language were... Umbar or Mumak ... may yound a bit arabic, a bit latin, a bit serbo-croatian possibly.

I guess he was just toying around with sounds... the Benish Armon - Beruthiel- Umbar connection is just a guess, but one i like...

 

[Ange1e4e5]

This is probably something for our costuming department, but Gandalf will likely need different clothes for when he goes to Harad, something more suitable to the climate. He probably can't dress up in a bermuda shirt, baseball cap and sunglasses (or maybe he can).