Session 5-05: The Storylines of Men, Part 1 - Haleth and ???

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Session 5-05 of Silm Film will be held on Thursday May 21st at 10 PM Eastern Time. We will begin discussing the storylines of Men, especially those that are least fleshed out and understood at this point in the planing.

Our main, hero, point-of-focus human characters this season are: Bëor, Amlach, Haleth, Andreth, Hador, and (to a lesser extent) Barahir, it looks like.

I propose that we start with Haleth. Her story is fairly self-contained, so we can make decisions about it without having a full view of other story arcs. Everyone knows why we want her included in the story, but outside the fight at the stockade...what will she do? Her story is about independence and resisting aligning herself with any particular group of Elves, so...how does that happen? We know her people go through Nan Dungortheb, and we know we want her to kill Tevildo, and they all wind up in Brethil. So, what is the story around those plot points?

We will likely have time to discuss at least one other major character. Who do you think we should focus on in this session?

Hador, too, is someone whose overall story is clear - he becomes a hero and aligns himself with Fingon and Fingolfin. But...how? Why? What happens? We need to invent almost all of this, and as a character who will be interacting with Fingolfin towards the end of the season, that puts him in a uniquely significant place. What will we do with that?

Amlach, like Haleth, is someone whose story is focused on a single event, and it's up to us to tell a story around it. Also, like Haleth, this story is not overly connected to the elvish storylines, so might be a good one to tackle early on.

I anticipate Bëor and Barahir being the easiest to handle, and so am inclined to postpone them until later. Andreth will be strongly tied to the season's theme rather than plot. Maybe we can have a 'House of Bëor' session later.....
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Session 5-05 of Silm Film will be held on Thursday May 21st at 10 PM Eastern Time. We will begin discussing the storylines of Men, especially those that are least fleshed out and understood at this point in the planing.

Our main, hero, point-of-focus human characters this season are: Bëor, Amlach, Haleth, Andreth, Hador, and (to a lesser extent) Barahir, it looks like.

I propose that we start with Haleth. Her story is fairly self-contained, so we can make decisions about it without having a full view of other story arcs. Everyone knows why we want her included in the story, but outside the fight at the stockade...what will she do? Her story is about independence and resisting aligning herself with any particular group of Elves, so...how does that happen? We know her people go through Nan Dungortheb, and we know we want her to kill Tevildo, and they all wind up in Brethil. So, what is the story around those plot points?

We will likely have time to discuss at least one other major character. Who do you think we should focus on in this session?

Hador, too, is someone whose overall story is clear - he becomes a hero and aligns himself with Fingon and Fingolfin. But...how? Why? What happens? We need to invent almost all of this, and as a character who will be interacting with Fingolfin towards the end of the season, that puts him in a uniquely significant place. What will we do with that?

Amlach, like Haleth, is someone whose story is focused on a single event, and it's up to us to tell a story around it. Also, like Haleth, this story is not overly connected to the elvish storylines, so might be a good one to tackle early on.

I anticipate Bëor and Barahir being the easiest to handle, and so am inclined to postpone them until later. Andreth will be strongly tied to the season's theme rather than plot. Maybe we can have a 'House of Bëor' session later.....
For Hador: I’ve proposed reusing the Orcs attacking down the coastline and Hador, who is young, no older than mid-twenties (he receives the fiefdom of Dor-Lomin and the Dragon-Helm at 26), leads his people and plugs the gap so to speak. He’d make his bones there. His end is pretty straightforward: he’s described as being in the rearguard of the Dagor Bragollach and he is KIA along with his younger son. Of the many named deaths (Hador, Gundor, Angrod, Aegnor, Bregolas), Fingolfin will be aware of his death first.

Amlach: I’ve suggested a long plot involving the Catch-and-Release program, with Sauron himself impersonating Amlach at the summit of 368 F.A. Sauron would be luring Men (maybe some young women) away with the assistance of some Elves he’s hypnotized and leaves them behind as patsies.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
One question that I think may arise concerning Haleth's story is whether to show the story of the Haladin before the attack on the stockade where Haldad and Haldar are killed, which would entail their settling in separate homesteads then being united by Haldad when they are set upon by Morgoth.

I'm opposed to this for a few reason:

First, I think the situation of the Haladin could all be conveyed in brief scenes in the same episode as the attack on the stockade, and that would be all the introduction we need for them.

Second, I think it would be better to stagger our introductions to the houses of Men. We would first meet Beor and his house, then the people of Marach through Amlach, then the Haladin through Haleth. This would keep us from having too many storylines going at once and make it easier tor the audience to keep track of the new characters. For this reason, it is also better to not introduce Haleth until after the death of Beor (and to have the death of Beor earlier than the midpoint of the season).

Third, this gives us more screen time to show Haleth being awesome, which will come mostly after the deaths of her father and brother. While it could be argued that spending more time with Haldad and Haldar would make the audience sadder at their deaths, this could also be done by making their deaths especially brutal and showing the great impact they have on Haleth. Really, I think Haleth should be the only character from the Haladin that the audience gets to know well, which makes sense, since she is the one the house gets named after.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Amlach is another character I don't think we need to show before his main event. We probably want to introduce him before he is impersonated by Sauron, but this could probably be done in the same episode as the council. Alternatively, we could show fake Amlach first and let the audience be as surprised as everyone else when the real Amlach shows up.

I suggest that we show Amlach setting off to Himring to enter the service of Maedhros at the end of the episode with the council. Then, if we want to, we can check back in with an older Amlach in a later episode when he is visited by a young Hador. That way, we can have closure for Amlach and introduce a new character at the same time.

One character we may want to appear in Amlach's story is his cousin Adanel, the wise woman from whom Andreth learned the Tale of Adanel about the Fall of Men. If we have Adanel remain in or be visiting Estolad, she could be used to represent the Elf-friends, and her deteriorating relationship with her cousin Amlach could show how divisions are appearing between Men. If we want to include the Tale of Adanel in SilmFilm, we could have Adanel tell parts of it to Amlach or even bring it up at the council.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Amlach is another character I don't think we need to show before his main event. We probably want to introduce him before he is impersonated by Sauron, but this could probably be done in the same episode as the council. Alternatively, we could show fake Amlach first and let the audience be as surprised as everyone else when the real Amlach shows up.

I suggest that we show Amlach setting off to Himring to enter the service of Maedhros at the end of the episode with the council. Then, if we want to, we can check back in with an older Amlach in a later episode when he is visited by a young Hador. That way, we can have closure for Amlach and introduce a new character at the same time.

One character we may want to appear in Amlach's story is his cousin Adanel, the wise woman from whom Andreth learned the Tale of Adanel about the Fall of Men. If we have Adanel remain in or be visiting Estolad, she could be used to represent the Elf-friends, and her deteriorating relationship with her cousin Amlach could show how divisions are appearing between Men. If we want to include the Tale of Adanel in SilmFilm, we could have Adanel tell parts of it to Amlach or even bring it up at the council.
So Amlach's relationship with the Elves would be deteriorating after the Council of 368?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
So Amlach's relationship with the Elves would be deteriorating after the Council of 368?
No, he is serving Maedhros after the Council. I meant that those interactions with Adanel could come before the council, to help us establish Amlach's perspective before he is impersonated by Sauron. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So these were the things I wrote down about the Haladin in the session 5-03 discussion:
  • The Haladin in conflict with the Green-elves
  • Galadriel and Celeborn try to solve the conflict, the Haladin moves north out of Ossiriand into Thargelion.
  • Orcs attack.
  • Caranthir offers Haleth lands in his realm, to protect them. Haleth denies, she doesn’t want serve any elf.
  • Haleth asks for passage through Doriath, which Thingol denies (because Thingol thinks his dreams were about them?)
  • Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb, they are hunted by Tevildo and his cats. Tevildo is slain.
  • Haleth reaches Brethil, but is confronted by the Sindar again.
  • Haleth meets Finrod and shows him the skin of Tevildo.
  • Finrod negotiate with Thingol on behalf of the Haladin. Who eventually lets them stay there.

First, I think the situation of the Haladin could all be conveyed in brief scenes in the same episode as the attack on the stockade, and that would be all the introduction we need for them.
I agree with this. I think the best way to introduce Haleth is through the battle at the stockade. This though could create a problem for us, because they are supposed to be in Ossiriand and argue with the Green-elves first. It could be solved by showing that conflict from the elvish point of view and have the Haladin be shown just as a group, not individual characters. The more personal and human side of the story could begin with Haleth in Thargelion.

I suggest that some of the haladin could be a bit anti-elves after the conflict with Green-elves, and that's a part of why they deny Caranthir's protection. They do not hate elves, but do not love them the way Bëor does. Bëor had a quite different first encounter with elves so their different views are understandable. The haladin's losses because of the orcs on the other hand creates their strong hatred of Morgoth.

I suggest that they feel that the Green-elves drove them into the open areas of Thargelion from the woods that could have protected them more from the orcs. This is one of the reasons they move towards Doriath, it's a wooded area that they could seek refuge in. Haleth could see Thingol's denial of even just passage through his lands as elves driving them into the open, unprotected lands again (Nan Dungortheb).

When Haleth reaches Brethil she is denied living there by the Sindar. For a time they again live in the open lands in Talath Dirnen. This of course attracts the attention of Finrod. Finrod maybe wants Talath Dirnen to be uninhabited so it would be easier to keep Nargothrond hidden, and easier for his spies to see if people, be they friends or enemies, approaches his lands. So Finrod wants to get them out of the Guarded Plain, but also after hearing their stories of how elves have "betrayed" Finrod visits Thingol to make things right. Haleth reluctantly agrees to protect the borders of Doriath because they finally get their lands, they will still remain independent and she has brought her people through a lot of bad things (Nan Dungortheb) and she wants to give something back to her people for trusting her.

Maybe a lot of her people starts to believe that they should just have said yes to Caranthir's offer after being kicked out of Brethil.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So these were the things I wrote down about the Haladin in the session 5-03 discussion:
  • The Haladin in conflict with the Green-elves
  • Galadriel and Celeborn try to solve the conflict, the Haladin moves north out of Ossiriand into Thargelion.
  • Orcs attack.
  • Caranthir offers Haleth lands in his realm, to protect them. Haleth denies, she doesn’t want serve any elf.
  • Haleth asks for passage through Doriath, which Thingol denies (because Thingol thinks his dreams were about them?)
  • Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb, they are hunted by Tevildo and his cats. Tevildo is slain.
  • Haleth reaches Brethil, but is confronted by the Sindar again.
  • Haleth meets Finrod and shows him the skin of Tevildo.
  • Finrod negotiate with Thingol on behalf of the Haladin. Who eventually lets them stay there.



I agree with this. I think the best way to introduce Haleth is through the battle at the stockade. This though could create a problem for us, because they are supposed to be in Ossiriand and argue with the Green-elves first. It could be solved by showing that conflict from the elvish point of view and have the Haladin be shown just as a group, not individual characters. The more personal and human side of the story could begin with Haleth in Thargelion.

I suggest that some of the haladin could be a bit anti-elves after the conflict with Green-elves, and that's a part of why they deny Caranthir's protection. They do not hate elves, but do not love them the way Bëor does. Bëor had a quite different first encounter with elves so their different views are understandable. The haladin's losses because of the orcs on the other hand creates their strong hatred of Morgoth.

I suggest that they feel that the Green-elves drove them into the open areas of Thargelion from the woods that could have protected them more from the orcs. This is one of the reasons they move towards Doriath, it's a wooded area that they could seek refuge in. Haleth could see Thingol's denial of even just passage through his lands as elves driving them into the open, unprotected lands again (Nan Dungortheb).

When Haleth reaches Brethil she is denied living there by the Sindar. For a time they again live in the open lands in Talath Dirnen. This of course attracts the attention of Finrod. Finrod maybe wants Talath Dirnen to be uninhabited so it would be easier to keep Nargothrond hidden, and easier for his spies to see if people, be they friends or enemies, approaches his lands. So Finrod wants to get them out of the Guarded Plain, but also after hearing their stories of how elves have "betrayed" Finrod visits Thingol to make things right. Haleth reluctantly agrees to protect the borders of Doriath because they finally get their lands, they will still remain independent and she has brought her people through a lot of bad things (Nan Dungortheb) and she wants to give something back to her people for trusting her.

Maybe a lot of her people starts to believe that they should just have said yes to Caranthir's offer after being kicked out of Brethil.
Is it possible that they do not meet with Finrod at all and he only hears from a second-hand account from the Green Elves?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
So these were the things I wrote down about the Haladin in the session 5-03 discussion:
  • The Haladin in conflict with the Green-elves
  • Galadriel and Celeborn try to solve the conflict, the Haladin moves north out of Ossiriand into Thargelion.
  • Orcs attack.
  • Caranthir offers Haleth lands in his realm, to protect them. Haleth denies, she doesn’t want serve any elf.
  • Haleth asks for passage through Doriath, which Thingol denies (because Thingol thinks his dreams were about them?)
  • Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb, they are hunted by Tevildo and his cats. Tevildo is slain.
  • Haleth reaches Brethil, but is confronted by the Sindar again.
  • Haleth meets Finrod and shows him the skin of Tevildo.
  • Finrod negotiate with Thingol on behalf of the Haladin. Who eventually lets them stay there.



I agree with this. I think the best way to introduce Haleth is through the battle at the stockade. This though could create a problem for us, because they are supposed to be in Ossiriand and argue with the Green-elves first. It could be solved by showing that conflict from the elvish point of view and have the Haladin be shown just as a group, not individual characters. The more personal and human side of the story could begin with Haleth in Thargelion.

I suggest that some of the haladin could be a bit anti-elves after the conflict with Green-elves, and that's a part of why they deny Caranthir's protection. They do not hate elves, but do not love them the way Bëor does. Bëor had a quite different first encounter with elves so their different views are understandable. The haladin's losses because of the orcs on the other hand creates their strong hatred of Morgoth.

I suggest that they feel that the Green-elves drove them into the open areas of Thargelion from the woods that could have protected them more from the orcs. This is one of the reasons they move towards Doriath, it's a wooded area that they could seek refuge in. Haleth could see Thingol's denial of even just passage through his lands as elves driving them into the open, unprotected lands again (Nan Dungortheb).

When Haleth reaches Brethil she is denied living there by the Sindar. For a time they again live in the open lands in Talath Dirnen. This of course attracts the attention of Finrod. Finrod maybe wants Talath Dirnen to be uninhabited so it would be easier to keep Nargothrond hidden, and easier for his spies to see if people, be they friends or enemies, approaches his lands. So Finrod wants to get them out of the Guarded Plain, but also after hearing their stories of how elves have "betrayed" Finrod visits Thingol to make things right. Haleth reluctantly agrees to protect the borders of Doriath because they finally get their lands, they will still remain independent and she has brought her people through a lot of bad things (Nan Dungortheb) and she wants to give something back to her people for trusting her.

Maybe a lot of her people starts to believe that they should just have said yes to Caranthir's offer after being kicked out of Brethil.
I agree that the conflict with the Green-elves should be shown from the elvish perspective. The Haladin characters that we meet in that episode will be like ‘Haladin Man #4 - caught hunting by some Green-elves and chased away.’
Is it possible that they do not meet with Finrod at all and he only hears from a second-hand account from the Green Elves?
I think Finrod and Bëor leave for Nargothrond before the Haladin cross the mountains.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So this is what I wrote for about the people of Marach/Hador in the Session 5-03 discussion:
  • The people of Marach enters Beleriand and is given lands by Amras in Estolad.
  • They are unsure of what to do, and the bad guys exploit this.
  • They hold a council at Estolad, people from the house of Bëor also comes to speak. Fake Amlach lies and persuades many people to leave with Bereg.
  • It’s revealed that it was a lie and Real Amlach decides to serve Maedhros.
  • Hador visits Amlach and fights in the skirmish at Aglon.
  • Hador denies serving Maedhros, he is given his own lands in Dor-lómin by Fingolfin, and the dragon-helm by Fingon.
  • Bragollach
    • Hador fights with Fingolfin and dies, he loses one of his sons.
One character we may want to appear in Amlach's story is his cousin Adanel, the wise woman from whom Andreth learned the Tale of Adanel about the Fall of Men. If we have Adanel remain in or be visiting Estolad, she could be used to represent the Elf-friends, and her deteriorating relationship with her cousin Amlach could show how divisions are appearing between Men. If we want to include the Tale of Adanel in SilmFilm, we could have Adanel tell parts of it to Amlach or even bring it up at the council.
I really like the idea bringing Adanel into the story and of contrasting them. This whole "conflict" between them would be representative of how the whole group is unsure of what to do. This could maybe show the tradition among men of having Wise-women. Maybe she could at some point of the story meet Andreth who also is a Wise-woman. Maybe first time we meet Andreth she is together with Adanel?

I hope that if we use Adanel it could be pointed out that Amlach isn't the ruler of their house, it's Adanel's father, and that her brother will rule next. I also hope that young Hador can visit an old Amlach in Himring later, and it will be clear that he is the grandson of Adanel's brother.

Maybe we could show Adanel and Amlach together when they come to Estolad, but then when the debate of what to do begins they start to support different sides. Adanel would join the party of her pro-elves father (Malach Aradan), and Amlach the anti-elves.
During the debate Adanel could bring up the stories she's learned as a Wise-woman, and maybe she (or her brother a very minor role) could bring up that Amlach isn't the ruler. Malach Aradan could be serving Fingolfin in this time and therefore not be there during the debate. So Amlach/Fake Amlach could bring up that Malach Aradan (or simply the chieftain) has forsaken them or something similar to discredit Adanel and the elf-friends.

So Malach Aradan wouldn't be on screen, maybe not even named except for as the chieftain and Adanel's father and Amlach's uncle. When Hador fights at Aglon and he gets Dor-lómin it could be because his great grandfather had served Fingolfin.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Alcarohtar, I agree with basically all of what you said about Haleth. What I like most about this is that it gives her whole life an arc of finding a home for her people, and learning how to put up with not-so-helpful-or-friendly elves. It feels like a story rather than a list of events. We want to live in a forest, but keep getting stuck on an unguarded plain seems like a consistent issue that is easy to portray visually.

As I see it, we 'introduce' the Haladin in Episode 2 - they are in Ossiriand, but the story is definitely told from the point of view of the Green Elves, so while we see Haladin on screen...we don't 'meet' any of them or hear their perspective on the situation.

We do get their perspective when they build their stockade in Thargelion. Now, we're introduced to Haleth and her twin brother and her father (also her mother, perhaps?) The audience may think we are 'introducing' the father - he's the leader, and perhaps the twins are young kids in the first scene where we see them. Perhaps something comes up about the elves (Caranthir's people), and one of the kids asks about them. The dad can explain how elves aren't very friendly folk, and how it's best to stay away from them - we leave them alone, and they leave us alone type of philosophy. This will be very different from what we have seen with Bëor, so the audience will naturally be a bit intrigued as to where this is all going. Also, we will have to introduce the precariousness of their situation, and how they know they are not safe where they are now. The desire to live in a forest like beautiful Ossiriand needs to be expressed as soon as possible. Then, naturally, by the end of the episode, Haleth and her brother have grown up, the orcs attack the stockade, and both the father and brother die. Leaving Haleth as the leader who now must choose a path for her people. By rejecting Caranthir's offer, she makes it clear that she's not about to become anyone's subject, and that she is maintaining the suspicions of her childhood - best if we stay apart.

Then comes the journey towards a new home, the conflict with Doriath ('the way is shut'), and the hazards of Nan Dungortheb. This is where Haleth forms up her body guard and proves her ability to lead in difficult circumstances. She is likely helping to raise her nephew, who will eventually be her heir. By the end of it, they are no closer to the beautiful forest, many of the people have died, and Haleth is beyond done with elves. Enter Finrod, ever eager to bridge gaps and make friends, and he wants to help them with their predicament. Haleth sees this as yet another elf saying 'get off my lawn.' But once Finrod understands the dream of a forest home, and how they have been turned away from Ossiriand and Doriath...he sees a solution. He tells Thingol about this hardy people of Men outside the Girdle who would be a good bulwark against any attacks from orcs or spiders or giant cats. Perhaps Haleth kills Tevildo to 'clean out' Brethil and make it her own, so that she is not wholly relying on Finrod to make the deal for her? And Thingol admits that he'd rather have the People of Haleth than the Cats of Morgoth as his neighbors, and lets them stay.

Haleth's childhood --> Attack on the stockade would be one episode, and Haleth would feature very prominently as a character there. The journey and the finding a new home could be the B-plot of two other episodes. So, over all, we get three chances for badass Haleth (stockade, spiders, Tevildo), and three opportunities for her to have dubious interactions with elf-lords (Caranthir, Thingol, and Finrod). And, in the end, the audience is happy and cheering for her that she has found her people a beautiful forest home where they can live secure, on their own terms.

Third, this gives us more screen time to show Haleth being awesome, which will come mostly after the deaths of her father and brother. While it could be argued that spending more time with Haldad and Haldar would make the audience sadder at their deaths, this could also be done by making their deaths especially brutal and showing the great impact they have on Haleth. Really, I think Haleth should be the only character from the Haladin that the audience gets to know well, which makes sense, since she is the one the house gets named after.
While I agree with you that we don't need to introduce the Haladin as characters until we reach the episode with the stockade battle, and I also agree that Haleth is the only one the audience will get to know well, I do want to caution a bit about the approach to character death here. It is simply not the case that a particularly gruesome death will make the audience care more about the character who dies. In fact, if no effort has been made to actually introduce the character dying, a brutal death could make the audience laugh at what happens! We don't need to get to know Haldad or Haldar well. They are going to be in just the one episode. But we should take the time to introduce them, find out what kind of parents and brother Haleth had, and we should see both Haleth and her brother reacting to their father's death - her brother recklessly enough to get himself killed, and Haleth single-handedly taking over the defense of the stockade. They are both supporting characters in Haleth's story, but we should know them well enough to care about them when they die...and not just because Haleth is upset about the loss.


(As an aside, I do think it would be beneficial to depict the death of Bëor before the stockade attack, as we will want to establish the mortality of Men fairly early on; not just for the audience, who probably assumed as much, but for the Noldor, who are surprised by this. Especially if we decide that Haleth's mother got sick and died at some point - that can't be an aside, and then later we make a big deal over Bëor. But that is a season structure issue, and here I'm mostly just trying to sort out what Haleth's story is about.)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We might want to establish Haleth's nephew Haldan; he's likely her protege and he succeeds her as head of the House of Haleth.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So I made some timelines:
The house of bëor.png
Baran, Bereg, Bregolas, Emeldir, Baragund and Belegund are just minor characters, maybe they aren't even named on screen.
House of Haleth.png
All but Haleth are minor characters.
House of Hador.png
All but Amlach, Adanel and Hador are minor characters.
I tried to combine these timelines and split it into different storylines:
Timeline.jpg
So the first part focuses on Bëor and other elvish stories. The Green-elves are part of this bulk. Bëor's people goes to live with Finrod's brothers in Dorthonion. After Bëor's death we could show some men being anti-elvish because of their immortality which is "unfair".

Then we go on to show the dithering men. The cousins Amlach and Adanel's deteriorating relationship because of their different views on what their people should do, and we again see parts of this anti-elvish sentiment. Adanel's father (Malach Aradan) is supposed to be serving the elves some years earlier, but if we can postpone it so that he's away during the council we could have Amlach criticise Adanel's father for serving the elves rather than being with his people. After the Council Fake Amlach is revealed and Amlach goes to serve Maedhros. This was a result of Sauron trying to spread rumours and turning men away from the elves.

After the Council it's time to introduce Haleth. Her talks about that elves are no good (Green-elves pushed them out of the woods into the open, unprotected plains of Thargelion). Orcs attack and she looses her twin brother and father, but Caranthir comes and saves them at last. She denies his protection, elves are no good, this wouldn't have happened if they could have stayed in Ossiriand. She is denied entry into Doriath, goes through dangers in Nan Dungortheb, is pushed out of Brethil by Thingol. Finrod wants them to get off his Talath Dirnen, but hearing the injustice against them he convinces Thingol to let them stay in Brethil. I would like to move the gifting of Brethil earlier than 422. This is Haleth's story, so she can't be dead. I suggest that we condense her story so that she gets Brethil before the fighting in Aglon.
Also we have Andreth during all of this Haleth stuff!

The next part focuses on Hador and Boromir and that they eventually fights in Aglon and receives Dor-lómin and Ladros. All of this should be condensed into one event, Boromir shouldn't receive Ladros 8 years after the battle! Hador goes to visit old Amlach in Himring. Hador is the grandson of Adanel's brother. He receives lands from Fingolfin because his great grandfather (father of Adanel) served him. Amlach, who criticised Adanel for her father's absence, sees that it really did come something good out Malach's absence after all. Maybe he somehow reconcile with Adanel before he dies?

Andreth's story continues through this part, maybe Boromir is a supporting character of Andreth? He is her father. When Boromir receives Ladros, Andreth is separated from Aegnor. Maybe Boromir recognises that her daughter and his folk would be better off if they lived apart from each other? No more impossible love, no more yearning for immortality?

Hador could be seeking safer lands after hearing about the attack on the Haladin. His people lives on the open plains of eastern Beleriand (Estolad), they could need somewhere more protected. Hador is again not willing to submit to the elves, his people want to stay independent. This is why he denies an offer from Maedhros, and gets Dor-lómin from Fingolfin instead.

The last part is again more focused on the elves with Fingolfin's war plans etc. Andreth is still a character.. And we could intoduce Barahir and Emeldir before Dagor Bragollach, when Barahir saves Finrod and Emeldir leads the refugees of the house of Bëor away to Brethil.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
The Athrabeth is supposed to be in 409, but could we have it in the last part, at the funeral of Boromir in 432?
We could also have Bregolas be at the funeral, so people know who he is, or at least have seen him before he dies in the Bragollach.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So I made some timelines:
View attachment 2865
Baran, Bereg, Bregolas, Emeldir, Baragund and Belegund are just minor characters, maybe they aren't even named on screen.
View attachment 2866
All but Haleth are minor characters.
View attachment 2867
All but Amlach, Adanel and Hador are minor characters.
I tried to combine these timelines and split it into different storylines:
View attachment 2868
So the first part focuses on Bëor and other elvish stories. The Green-elves are part of this bulk. Bëor's people goes to live with Finrod's brothers in Dorthonion. After Bëor's death we could show some men being anti-elvish because of their immortality which is "unfair".

Then we go on to show the dithering men. The cousins Amlach and Adanel's deteriorating relationship because of their different views on what their people should do, and we again see parts of this anti-elvish sentiment. Adanel's father (Malach Aradan) is supposed to be serving the elves some years earlier, but if we can postpone it so that he's away during the council we could have Amlach criticise Adanel's father for serving the elves rather than being with his people. After the Council Fake Amlach is revealed and Amlach goes to serve Maedhros. This was a result of Sauron trying to spread rumours and turning men away from the elves.

After the Council it's time to introduce Haleth. Her talks about that elves are no good (Green-elves pushed them out of the woods into the open, unprotected plains of Thargelion). Orcs attack and she looses her twin brother and father, but Caranthir comes and saves them at last. She denies his protection, elves are no good, this wouldn't have happened if they could have stayed in Ossiriand. She is denied entry into Doriath, goes through dangers in Nan Dungortheb, is pushed out of Brethil by Thingol. Finrod wants them to get off his Talath Dirnen, but hearing the injustice against them he convinces Thingol to let them stay in Brethil. I would like to move the gifting of Brethil earlier than 422. This is Haleth's story, so she can't be dead. I suggest that we condense her story so that she gets Brethil before the fighting in Aglon.
Also we have Andreth during all of this Haleth stuff!

The next part focuses on Hador and Boromir and that they eventually fights in Aglon and receives Dor-lómin and Ladros. All of this should be condensed into one event, Boromir shouldn't receive Ladros 8 years after the battle! Hador goes to visit old Amlach in Himring. Hador is the grandson of Adanel's brother. He receives lands from Fingolfin because his great grandfather (father of Adanel) served him. Amlach, who criticised Adanel for her father's absence, sees that it really did come something good out Malach's absence after all. Maybe he somehow reconcile with Adanel before he dies?

Andreth's story continues through this part, maybe Boromir is a supporting character of Andreth? He is her father. When Boromir receives Ladros, Andreth is separated from Aegnor. Maybe Boromir recognises that her daughter and his folk would be better off if they lived apart from each other? No more impossible love, no more yearning for immortality?

Hador could be seeking safer lands after hearing about the attack on the Haladin. His people lives on the open plains of eastern Beleriand (Estolad), they could need somewhere more protected. Hador is again not willing to submit to the elves, his people want to stay independent. This is why he denies an offer from Maedhros, and gets Dor-lómin from Fingolfin instead.

The last part is again more focused on the elves with Fingolfin's war plans etc. Andreth is still a character.. And we could intoduce Barahir and Emeldir before Dagor Bragollach, when Barahir saves Finrod and Emeldir leads the refugees of the house of Bëor away to Brethil.
Why would Boromir decide that Andreth and Aegnor would be best apart from each other? One could say it's not far enough; Ladros is still under Aegnor's jurisdiction.
Another supporting character for Andreth: maybe her brother Bregor? He's apparently a bowman of renown, enough that his bow is a prized heirloom by the Second Age. Or maybe we put a throwaway line that the bow wielded by Barahir or Beren belonged to Barahir's father (Bregor).
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Why would Boromir decide that Andreth and Aegnor would be best apart from each other? One could say it's not far enough; Ladros is still under Aegnor's jurisdiction.
I think that by the time Boromir gets Ladros Aegnor has already told Andreth that they can't be together. Maybe Boromir sees that it hurts his daughter to be so close to him, but yet so far away. Maybe he doesn't want to see her suffer. He says yes to Angrod/Aegnor's offer to get their own lands separated from the elves. In the beginning Bëor's people live together with the elves in Dorthonion, so Ladros is still further away. Now they have their own settlements separated from the elves, even though it's not that far away and they still serve the elves.

Another supporting character for Andreth: maybe her brother Bregor? He's apparently a bowman of renown, enough that his bow is a prized heirloom by the Second Age. Or maybe we put a throwaway line that the bow wielded by Barahir or Beren belonged to Barahir's father (Bregor).
Would be cool to have Bregor's bow!
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think that by the time Boromir gets Ladros Aegnor has already told Andreth that they can't be together. Maybe Boromir sees that it hurts his daughter to be so close to him, but yet so far away. Maybe he doesn't want to see her suffer. He says yes to Angrod/Aegnor's offer to get their own lands separated from the elves. In the beginning Bëor's people live together with the elves in Doriath, so Ladros is still further away. Now they have their own settlements separated from the elves, even though it's not that far away and they still serve the elves.
Why would Beor's people be in Doriath? Thingol's made it abundantly clear that he doesn't want any Men in his kingdom. And Ladros is practically next door to Dorthonion.
 
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Alcarohtar

Active Member
Why would Beor's people be in Doriath? Thingol's made it abundantly clear that he doesn't want any Men in his kingdom (a kingdom that's less than the distance from NYC to Columbus, but still a kingdom). And Ladros is practically next door to Dorthonion.
OOps Dorthonion!! :oops:
Those exams are killing me haha :eek:
 

Octoburn

Active Member
The Athrabeth is supposed to be in 409, but could we have it in the last part, at the funeral of Boromir in 432?
We could also have Bregolas be at the funeral, so people know who he is, or at least have seen him before he dies in the Bragollach.
Personally, I imagine it happening near the middle of the season. I believe that the Hosts mentioning it being after Beor's death (by some time trickery, it would be condensed into Andreth's lifetime.) and that it will be inter-cut with the other stories of that episodes, trying to tie the themes of the conversation into those stories. We would obviously trim it quite a bit, because if you filmed it as written, it would be an entire episode or two!

But, I also imagine, in the last episode, Andreth thinking back on the conversation, and thinking of a part of it that did not come up in the previous "Athrabeth" episode, voicing over much of the devastation of the Bragollach.

"For you speak of death and his shadow, as if these were one and the same; and as if to escape from the Shadow was to escape also from Death.

'But these two are not the same, Andreth. So I deem, or death would not be found at all in this world which he did not design but Another. Nay, death is but the name that we give to something that he has tainted, and it sounds therefore evil; but untainted its name would be good.'

'What do ye know of death? Ye do not fear it, because ye do not know it,' said Andreth.

'We have seen it, and we fear it,' answered Finrod. 'We too may die, Andreth; and we have died. My father's father was cruelly slain, and many have followed him, exiles in the night, in the cruel ice, in the insatiable sea. And in Middle-earth we have died, by fire and by smoke, by venom and the cruel blades of battle. Fëanor is dead, and Fingolfin was trodden under the feet of the Morgoth."
obviously leaving out the Fingolfin mention, since that actually happens after the conversation...

I just feel this little passage is a fitting send off at the end of the season, and would put a nice little cap on the season...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Athrabeth is supposed to be in 409, but could we have it in the last part, at the funeral of Boromir in 432?
We could also have Bregolas be at the funeral, so people know who he is, or at least have seen him before he dies in the Bragollach.
I think that we can break elements of the Athrabeth into different episodes and at different times over the course of Andreth's life. As the thematic lynchpin of the season, she's going to have a lot to say at various times.
 
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