Session 5-07: Storylines of Men - Hador and Amlach

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Session 5-07 will be held on Thursday June 18th, 2020 at 10 PM Eastern Time. We will be continuing the discussion of the storylines of Men, starting with the story of Hador, and (finally!) getting to Amlach after that.

The discussion of Haleth focused on the fierce independence of her people, and how she rules by force of personality. (These are the Teleri of the Edain.)

The discussion of Bëor focused on how he was looking for a promised land in the West, and thinks he's found it when he meets Finrod and moves his people to Nargothrond to live with the Elves. (These are the Vanyar of the Edain.)

Hador has to choose a different path to interacting with Elves, and he's going to be leading the largest of the groups of people. (Who are, at least in some ways, the Noldor of the Edain.) Corey Olsen has had a strong desire to start Hador's house with the story of Hador for some time - the House is named for him, so it must be his story. What is that story, though?

Can Hador be a young man at the Council, who leads the people who follow him from Estolad to Dor-lómin to form an alliance with Fingolfin? And if so...will he die prior to the Dagor Bragollach? What would that mean for the story of his people? What *is* the story of his people, by-the-by?

Thoughts for next time, and how Amlach and Hador's stories fit together, please!
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I think that to make Hador appear earlier in the timeline, we could essentially swap his place in the genealogy with that of Malach Aradan. I also think we might want to consider giving some of Malach's story to Hador as well.

Malach, son of Marach, is born in 307, so he is three or four years old when his house crosses into Beleriand. Here's what The Silmarillion says about him: "Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers of welcome to them; and then many young and eager men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar. Among them was Malach son of Marach, and he dwelt in Hithlum for fourteen years; and he learned the Elven-tongue and was given the name of Aradan." ("Aradan" just means noble man in Sindarin.)

Henceforth I am going to refer to the son of Marach as "Hador" and the father of Galdor as "Aradan."

I suggest that we preserve the element of Hador and other young Men of his house going off to serve Fingolfin while the majority of his people remain in Estolad. We could even use Hador's epithet "Lorindol" ("golden-haired" in Sindarin) to represent his adoption of the Elvish language.

From there, I could see the story going in two ways:
  1. Marach dies or retires, and Hador comes back to Estolad to become chief of his house. At this point, the Council takes place, and Hador is very firmly one of the Elf-friends. He wants the rest of his people to come back to Dor-lomin with him. His nephew Amlach is very opposed to this and helps persuade a large group of people to leave with Bereg. However, after the fake Amlach fiasco, most of the house decides to go back to Dor-lomin with Hador. Hador becomes Lord of Dor-lomin and is given the Dragon-helm.
  2. Hador is still in Dor-lomin when the Council takes place. His son Magor is therefore the chief voice of the Elf-friends. Fake Amlach does his thing and Bereg leaves. When real Amlach turns up, Magor and the rest of the people decide to go join Hador in Dor-lomin. Hador becomes Lord of Dor-lomin and is given the Dragon-helm.
Hador is obviously a stronger and more prominent character in the first option, but I could see us going with the second option if we wanted the episode about the Council to focus more on Amlach and didn't want Hador there to overshadow him.

Later in the season, Aradan would probably agree with Fingolfin about initiating an attack against Angband and then die in the Dagor Bragollach. I'm not sure how much of a role he would have beyond that.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
But do we need to make him earlier in the timeline? Judging by both options he’s going to be rather old when he’s given the Dragon-Helm, which is what we weren’t aiming for.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I have a few suggestions for the Council:
  • I'd like to keep Bereg as a member of the House of Beor, even though he is the one who leads away a large part of the House of Hador. I suggest that he and some other members of the House of Beor come to the council with the intent to persuade the House of Hador to come live with the Elves. Most of the representative of the House of Beor side with the Elf-friends among the House of Hador; however, Bereg himself is persuaded by the arguments against the Elves. He reflects on the growing problems he has seen in Nargothrond and what he hears in Estolad, particularly from fake Amlach, and declares at the end of the Council that he is going back east. A large portion of the House of Hador decides they want to go back east too, and since their current chief wants to go serve the Elves in Dor-lomin and Amlach has mysteriously disappeared, they decide to take Bereg as their leader. The fact that Bereg is from the House of Beor shows both that Sauron's trickery was so powerful that it convinced someone who should have been a die-hard Elf-friend and that there may be some problems with the House of Beor living in Nargothrond.
  • I'd also like to keep Adanel as a member of the House of Hador. I suggest that as a detail, not a storyline or even a whole scene, of this episode, Belemir is one of the Men from the House of Beor who goes with Bereg to the Council. In Estolad, he finds himself arguing alongside Adanel, and they fall in love. Adanel goes back to Nargothrond with Belemir, which puts her in the right place to be Andreth's mentor. In later episodes, Adanel introduces Andreth to the perspective of the House of Hador in addition to the House of Beor, which is one of the things that makes Andreth particularly wise among her own people and makes her suggest that the House of Beor leave Nargothrond and ally themselves with the Elves in a manner more like that of the House of Hador.
  • Although the House of Hador is going to Dor-lomin, Amlach still goes to serve Maedhros. He does this because when he is captured or attacked by Sauron's servants in order for Sauron to take his place, Amras comes to Amlach's rescue. Amlach is grateful and wants to serve the Elves now, but Amras doesn't have any particular use for him, so Amras suggests that Amlach go to serve Maedhros instead. When Amlach returns to his people in Estolad and denies saying the things fake Amlach said, I see three potential reasons he would go to Himring rather than Dor-lomin:
    • Amlach feels that he owes the Feanorians a debt for his rescue.
    • Amlach leaves to serve Maedhros before the rest of his house decides they will go to Dor-lomin.
    • Amlach is worried about the things that fake Amlach said and doesn't want to seem like he is competing with Hador for leadership, so he thinks it best that he just completely remove himself from the situation.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Something about Hador: perhaps his big bond is with Fingon? Fingon is the one who gifts him his lands and the Dragon-Helm of Dor-Lomin.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So here’s an idea I have:
  • Aradan is the young son of Marach (remember they are the House of Marach before Hador comes along), their kind arrives later amidst a dispute with the Green-Elves.
  • Aradan goes to foster with Fingolfin, which is not a popular decision due to the suspicion against Elves, which is later exacerbated by several disappearances amongst the House of Marach (as they’re originally called) that appear to involve the Elves.
  • Amlach suspects them, and believes that the Elves wish them ill-will, making him easy prey for Sauron to manipulate.
  • Aradan is set as Amlach’s opponent for the Council.
  • Because Sauron doesn’t want to take any chance that Amlach might change his mind, Amlach is set upon by Orcs (disguised as Elves) and impersonated, but is rescued by Elves associated with Maedhros (it may even be Maedhros himself) and whatever concealing spell Sauron has vanishes, revealing these “Elves” as Orcs. He races back to the council at all available speed and disrupts Sauron’s plan, having realized Sauron’s deception. Amlach seeks service with Maedhros as gratitude and atonement.
  • Aradan’s grandson is Hador, who wins a great victory against the Orcs at a young age, a feat that impresses Fingon enough that he grants Hador his own lands (keep in mind that Fingon ruled Dor-Lomin before Hador did) and gifts him the Dragon-Helm. Hador is one of the few Men who still remembers the Orcs by the Dagor Bragollach, and is KIA alongside his son Gundor during that battle; of the deaths that occur in that battle, Fingolfin will be aware of his the most and will factor in his decision to challenge Morgoth.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Options thus far:

  • Malach or Marach/Aradan is 'renamed' Hador, and thus the story of 'Hador' becomes the story of one of the earlier people from his family tree. The character known as Hador Lorindol is thus either 'Hador II' or is renamed to something like 'Aradan.' Both characters get stories this season.
  • Aradan is Amlach's contemporary, and Hador comes later. Both Aradan and Hador get stories this season.
  • The House of Hador is not a united House. Instead, they enter Beleriand as a loosely-coordinated group of family clans, each ruled by a chieftain. Thus, Amlach is the leader of one small group, and it is his small group alone that goes to Himring after the Council. Hador's story is thus one of uniting the clans under a single leadership and becoming Lord of Dor-lómin.

Honestly, renaming Marach/Aradan as 'Hador' is the simplest solution, if the sole reason we want him to appear earlier is so that the group can be named The House of Hador right away. The only disadvantage to that would be creating two characters we would want to focus on: Marach-renamed-Hador, and Hador-renamed-Aradan/Lorindol/Hador II. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but early!Hador will be overshadowed by Amlach, I think.

The other option to avoid 'House of Marach' confusion is to not name their House right away...maybe they just call themselves 'the Edain?' Their story of 'dithering' is really a story of many different voices trying to lead, and having trouble uniting. A lot of 'as for me and my house, we will...' What finally brings them together? Common enemy/threat of Morgoth in Angband should do the trick, especially after those who disagreed left Beleriand. Those who remain would be more likely to unite. So, the Council would be one episode, and seeing a good chunk of the Men leave would be discouraging. Seeing Amlach decide to serve Maedhros would be good news, but it wouldn't offset the large exodus - what good is one small little clan going to do? Then, in a later episode, we have Hador unite the clans in Estolad, win renown, and move everyone to his new digs in Dor-lómin, where they are allies of the elves, but not subservient to them. This Hador would do most of the things that Hador in the book does, but he will die before the Dagor Bragollach, leaving the decision to muster the army and fight to one of his descendants. One reason this Hador would have to live earlier is that we would want him alive during the Council, and we want his actions moving his people to Dor-lómin to happen prior to Adanel and a young Andreth moving the House of Bëor to Ladros in Dorthonion.

Would it honestly be that bad to have two different characters both named 'Hador'? Men naming their children after a famous ancestor is not that unusual, after all. I get that it would be confusing, potentially, but it might also be a really helpful way to tie this House's story together.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I don’t care much about the number of Harods, I think we can manage two, although it will probably be easier to tell the guys apart if they don’t share the same name. I do like the idea of Hador uniting a group of people and thereby giving the House his name.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don’t care much about the number of Harods, I think we can manage two, although it will probably be easier to tell the guys apart if they don’t share the same name. I do like the idea of Hador uniting a group of people and thereby giving the House his name.
If we were to go the route of multiple Hadors, we’d likely have to put epitaphs. Most British royal epitaphs have to do with the place they were born; King Edward II was originally named Edward of Caernafon because he was born at Caernafon Castle in Wales, while his son King Edward III was known as Edward of Windsor because he was born at Windsor Castle.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Both Marach and Hador have epithets - Aradan = the royal man, and Lorindol = the golden-headed. Certainly, we could give multiple Hador's different epithets if we wanted to go that route.



Do we need Hador to be a contemporary of Andreth?
I think at this point, we need the House of Hador to move to Dor-lómin before the House of Bëor moves to Ladros in Dorthonion.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Both Marach and Hador have epithets - Aradan = the royal man, and Lorindol = the golden-headed. Certainly, we could give multiple Hador's different epithets if we wanted to go that route.





I think at this point, we need the House of Hador to move to Dor-lómin before the House of Bëor moves to Ladros in Dorthonion.
Why do we want Hador as a contemporary of Amlach and Andreth? While I can see the possibility of shifting around the settling of Ladros and Dor-Lomin (they are about six years apart and Hador is mentioned as going into Fingolfin’s service in 405 F.A., which could make him 15 at the time and then, if we switch the dates around, would make him 20 when he receives Dor-Lomin from Fingon), I don’t see the point of aging Hador up to be a contemporary of Andreth and Amlach unless we’re greatly compressing the timeline.

Also, is there a point that the House of Marach has to arrive in Beleriand that is the earliest they have to arrive?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Something to consider: in readings about the geography of Beleriand it appears that the main thing keeping Men in Estolad is that they can’t cross into the rest of Beleriand; we have the impenetrable kingdom of Doriath to the north and the Fens of Sirion to the South (there’s a source that states that 6,000, in three companies of 2,000, cross into Beleriand). Maybe Hador finds a way to move a large amount of people to the other side of Beleriand?...
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Options thus far:

  • Malach or Marach/Aradan is 'renamed' Hador, and thus the story of 'Hador' becomes the story of one of the earlier people from his family tree. The character known as Hador Lorindol is thus either 'Hador II' or is renamed to something like 'Aradan.' Both characters get stories this season.
  • Aradan is Amlach's contemporary, and Hador comes later. Both Aradan and Hador get stories this season.
  • The House of Hador is not a united House. Instead, they enter Beleriand as a loosely-coordinated group of family clans, each ruled by a chieftain. Thus, Amlach is the leader of one small group, and it is his small group alone that goes to Himring after the Council. Hador's story is thus one of uniting the clans under a single leadership and becoming Lord of Dor-lómin.

Honestly, renaming Marach/Aradan as 'Hador' is the simplest solution, if the sole reason we want him to appear earlier is so that the group can be named The House of Hador right away. The only disadvantage to that would be creating two characters we would want to focus on: Marach-renamed-Hador, and Hador-renamed-Aradan/Lorindol/Hador II. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but early!Hador will be overshadowed by Amlach, I think.

The other option to avoid 'House of Marach' confusion is to not name their House right away...maybe they just call themselves 'the Edain?' Their story of 'dithering' is really a story of many different voices trying to lead, and having trouble uniting. A lot of 'as for me and my house, we will...' What finally brings them together? Common enemy/threat of Morgoth in Angband should do the trick, especially after those who disagreed left Beleriand. Those who remain would be more likely to unite. So, the Council would be one episode, and seeing a good chunk of the Men leave would be discouraging. Seeing Amlach decide to serve Maedhros would be good news, but it wouldn't offset the large exodus - what good is one small little clan going to do? Then, in a later episode, we have Hador unite the clans in Estolad, win renown, and move everyone to his new digs in Dor-lómin, where they are allies of the elves, but not subservient to them. This Hador would do most of the things that Hador in the book does, but he will die before the Dagor Bragollach, leaving the decision to muster the army and fight to one of his descendants. One reason this Hador would have to live earlier is that we would want him alive during the Council, and we want his actions moving his people to Dor-lómin to happen prior to Adanel and a young Andreth moving the House of Bëor to Ladros in Dorthonion.

Would it honestly be that bad to have two different characters both named 'Hador'? Men naming their children after a famous ancestor is not that unusual, after all. I get that it would be confusing, potentially, but it might also be a really helpful way to tie this House's story together.
Renaming Malach Aradan "Hador" does not necessarily mean creating another character from the House of Hador that we need to focus on. I suggested it as a way of aligning with the Hosts' wishes to have the House of Hador established right after the Council and Hador be the one who does this. While Hador-renamed-Aradan/Lorindol/Hador II would be a character, he can just be a supporting character in Fingolfin's story rather than having a story of his own. Except for dying in the Dagor Bragollach, everything that a later Hador does (serving Fingolfin in his youth, being given Dor-lomin and moving his people there, speaking mostly the Elven-tongue, and being the mightiest chieftain of the Edain) could be done a few generations earlier, contemporary with Amlach and the Council. There's already a lot of overlap with the things that Malach Aradan does in the book.

I disagree that an earlier Hador would be overshadowed by Amlach. I think the opposite, Amlach being overshadowed by Hador, would actually be more likely. Originally, I think we wanted Amlach to be the main character from the House of Hador in this part of the season because Hador wouldn't be around yet. However, if we call Malach "Hador" and focus on his story, Amlach does not need to be as big of a character. We would certainly still tell Amlach's story and show him being replaced by Sauron at the Council then going to serve Maedhros, but Amlach would be more of a foil to Hador than the protagonist of his own story. Amlach could be the main character of the episode in which the Council takes place, but I could see Hador's arc spanning at least three episodes: 1) serving under Fingolfin with a few others from his house, 2) the Council (may or may not be present for it), and 3) settling his people in Dor-lomin, receiving the Dragon-helm, and being a great friend of the Elves.

I'm not in favor of having two characters named Hador this season. While the tradition of naming children after famous ancestors is something that Men often do, it does not appear to be as common among the Edain as among Men of later ages. I think it would be particularly confusing to show Hador I and then show Hador II if we want to imply that some generations have passed between them. Also, the fact that these two Hadors would probably look quite similar might make it hard for viewers to recall which Hador did what. I suspect we would end up referring to the first Hador primarily as "Hador" and the second Hador primarily by his epithet, so why not just call the second one "Aradan" from the start?

Why do we want Hador as a contemporary of Amlach and Andreth? While I can see the possibility of shifting around the settling of Ladros and Dor-Lomin (they are about six years apart and Hador is mentioned as going into Fingolfin’s service in 405 F.A., which could make him 15 at the time and then, if we switch the dates around, would make him 20 when he receives Dor-Lomin from Fingon), I don’t see the point of aging Hador up to be a contemporary of Andreth and Amlach unless we’re greatly compressing the timeline.

Also, is there a point that the House of Marach has to arrive in Beleriand that is the earliest they have to arrive?
Since the Hosts want several generations to pass while the House of Beor lives among the Elves and also want Andreth to live to a great age, I'm pretty sure we won't be compressing the timeline after all (Hooray! :D )

However, I think we will be shifting events around a little so that the House of Hador's move to Dor-lomin comes right after the Council. It would probably be in 369 or 370. The House would definitely need to have entered Beleriand and settled in Estolad by then, but I really don't see any reason to delay their arrival from what it is in the book. I think we should show the House of Hador's conflict with the Green-elves right after Finrod and the House of Beor leave Ossiriand.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Even though it kind of overlaps with the villain storylines, I think we may want to figure out how we want to show Amlach's impersonation and how soon we want viewers to learn it is Sauron behind the whole thing. I think the following four scenarios are the most likely:
  1. Viewers know only as much as the other Men in Estolad. They don't suspect that fake Amlach is fake until the real Amlach shows up and denies saying what he said at the Council. He tells about his capture and escape, and this might be shown in flashback.
  2. Amlach is attacked before the Council, but the outcome of this fight is unclear. Someone named Amlach is speaking at the Council, but this may or may not be the real Amlach. The real Amlach later appears and explains that he was captured and never came to the Council.
  3. The storylines of real Amlach and fake Amlach are shown in parallel. Viewers see real Amlach captured and escape/get rescued while Sauron takes the form of fake Amlach and goes to the Council.
  4. The story is told from Sauron's perspective. He captures the real Amlach and impersonates him at the Council then reacts to having his plans thwarted by the real Amlach's unexpected return.
Personally, I like the third option best.

Another thing we may want to answer at this stage is why it is Amlach that Sauron impersonates? Why didn't Sauron impersonate someone with more political power, such as Magor or Hador? Did he target Amalch because of Amlach's previous anti-Elven views? Did he come across Amlach by chance and decide then to capture and impersonate him?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I suggested something along the lines of option 3 a few posts ago, and that Amlach was targeted because of his anti-Elven views and Sauron decides to do this one himself because he doesn’t want to take the chance that Amlach changes his mind.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Renaming Malach Aradan "Hador" does not necessarily mean creating another character from the House of Hador that we need to focus on. I suggested it as a way of aligning with the Hosts' wishes to have the House of Hador established right after the Council and Hador be the one who does this. While Hador-renamed-Aradan/Lorindol/Hador II would be a character, he can just be a supporting character in Fingolfin's story rather than having a story of his own. Except for dying in the Dagor Bragollach, everything that a later Hador does (serving Fingolfin in his youth, being given Dor-lomin and moving his people there, speaking mostly the Elven-tongue, and being the mightiest chieftain of the Edain) could be done a few generations earlier, contemporary with Amlach and the Council. There's already a lot of overlap with the things that Malach Aradan does in the book.

I disagree that an earlier Hador would be overshadowed by Amlach. I think the opposite, Amlach being overshadowed by Hador, would actually be more likely. Originally, I think we wanted Amlach to be the main character from the House of Hador in this part of the season because Hador wouldn't be around yet. However, if we call Malach "Hador" and focus on his story, Amlach does not need to be as big of a character. We would certainly still tell Amlach's story and show him being replaced by Sauron at the Council then going to serve Maedhros, but Amlach would be more of a foil to Hador than the protagonist of his own story. Amlach could be the main character of the episode in which the Council takes place, but I could see Hador's arc spanning at least three episodes: 1) serving under Fingolfin with a few others from his house, 2) the Council (may or may not be present for it), and 3) settling his people in Dor-lomin, receiving the Dragon-helm, and being a great friend of the Elves.

I'm not in favor of having two characters named Hador this season. While the tradition of naming children after famous ancestors is something that Men often do, it does not appear to be as common among the Edain as among Men of later ages. I think it would be particularly confusing to show Hador I and then show Hador II if we want to imply that some generations have passed between them. Also, the fact that these two Hadors would probably look quite similar might make it hard for viewers to recall which Hador did what. I suspect we would end up referring to the first Hador primarily as "Hador" and the second Hador primarily by his epithet, so why not just call the second one "Aradan" from the start?


Since the Hosts want several generations to pass while the House of Beor lives among the Elves and also want Andreth to live to a great age, I'm pretty sure we won't be compressing the timeline after all (Hooray! :D )

However, I think we will be shifting events around a little so that the House of Hador's move to Dor-lomin comes right after the Council. It would probably be in 369 or 370. The House would definitely need to have entered Beleriand and settled in Estolad by then, but I really don't see any reason to delay their arrival from what it is in the book. I think we should show the House of Hador's conflict with the Green-elves right after Finrod and the House of Beor leave Ossiriand.
Question: how does the House of Hador get across Beleriand to reach Dor-Lomin? The book says that they stay in Estolad because they have the impenetrable forest of Doriath to the north and the marshes to the south.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Question: how does the House of Hador get across Beleriand to reach Dor-Lomin? The book says that they stay in Estolad because they have the impenetrable forest of Doriath to the north and the marshes to the south.
I suspect they would either travel across Dorthonion or up and around the highlands through Ard-galen.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Why do we want Hador as a contemporary of Amlach and Andreth? While I can see the possibility of shifting around the settling of Ladros and Dor-Lomin (they are about six years apart and Hador is mentioned as going into Fingolfin’s service in 405 F.A., which could make him 15 at the time and then, if we switch the dates around, would make him 20 when he receives Dor-Lomin from Fingon), I don’t see the point of aging Hador up to be a contemporary of Andreth and Amlach unless we’re greatly compressing the timeline.

Also, is there a point that the House of Marach has to arrive in Beleriand that is the earliest they have to arrive?
Because they don't want to call them the House of Marach. The Hosts would like them to be called 'the House of Hador' right off the bat. So...either Marach is named Hador, or they get the name later, but there's not really an option where the House is introduced as a House but Hador isn't born yet.

With the House of Hador moving to Dor-lómin prior to the House of Bëor moving to Ladros, and the move to Ladros happening in Andreth's lifetime....Hador and Andreth become contemporaries.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Because they don't want to call them the House of Marach. The Hosts would like them to be called 'the House of Hador' right off the bat. So...either Marach is named Hador, or they get the name later, but there's not really an option where the House is introduced as a House but Hador isn't born yet.
It seems to me that the Houses are named after their most significant leaders rather than the current leader. Since Men seem to not want to remember their history before coming into Beleriand, I think we could make the convention of referring to the groups of Men as "House of ____" Elvish in origin. Beor might say to Finrod, "I'm Beor and these are the people who follow me," and Finrod would start calling them the House of Beor, and the name would stick even after Beor's death. The House of Hador would be called such only after they go to Dor-lomin to live near the Elves, and the Haladin would be called the House of Haleth to fit with the pattern.
 
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