Session 5-07: Storylines of Men - Hador and Amlach

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Back to elven trades.

Remember how, when we discussed whether or not Maedhros would have a prosthetic hand, we talked about the elvish aversion to 'machines'? Whereas orcs are very inclined to think in terms of machines.

Men like machines.

I'm fairly certain that's the main reason there's a difference in 'skills acquired' when comparing the Easterlings learning from the orcs vs the Edain learning from the Elves.

Elves are into art. They will of course create the tools to allow them to make their art, but they are at heart artisans, not engineers. Even the Noldor (who are the most engineer-y of the Elves) have a more naturalistic approach to their place in the world than your average Man would. The Elves may be happy to teach the Men various skills, but they will (naturally) teach the way that they do it. Men, who are going to care a lot more about efficiency, will be left to 'adapt' those methods on their own, rather than adopt them wholecloth.

So I agree with those who say the elves aren't very adaptable as teachers - they don't recognize, oh, here is a thing that the Men could do, but they'll need to do it differently to be quicker, simpler, more direct. They are just going to say 'this is how we do this' and let the Men figure out how to adapt it to their own needs.
So would the move to Dorthonion be part of letting the Men figure out how to adapt Elven techniques?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So would the move to Dorthonion be part of letting the Men figure out how to adapt Elven techniques?
Or maybe something that Beor advises Finrod is the best chance for his people. He's watched an entire generation grow up in the "gilded cage" of Nargothrond.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Why would he be reluctant to comply with the dying wish of a friend?
I could see him either acquiescing to Beor’s dying wishes, or becoming more protective, which, in theory, could necessitate Andreth (through her father Boromir) suggesting they move out to Dorthonion.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-07: Storylines of Men pt. 3

Over the course of Season 5, the three houses of the Edain need to have distinct stories that focus on major characters. The two most important characters from the House of Hador will be Hador and Amlach. The House of Hador's relationship with the Elves will be between the House of Haleth (independent) and the House of Beor's (serving the Elves); they will be allies with the Elves and seen as equals.

Hador

In the book, Hador appears fairly late in the genealogy and is alive when the Dagor Bragollach starts, though he dies in the battle. For SilmFilm, he will be a character earlier in the genealogy so that the house will take its name from him early on.

The group of people that will eventually become the House of Hador do not have a strong central leader when first they enter Beleriand and settle in Estolad. They stick together because there is strength in numbers, and there are some influential families among them. This is where Hador, Amlach, and Bereg (who will be part of this house rather than the House of Beor and may need a name change) come from.

Elf-lords send emissaries to Estolad to recruit Men to serve them. Hador and a group of maybe around young 20 Men (and women) go to serve Fingon in Dor-lomin. Hador quickly shows himself to be a daring and heroic leader, which greatly impresses his own people and Fingon. Fingon gives Hador the Dragon-helm, and some of the people who came with Hador to Dor-lomin go back to Estolad to spread the news of Hador's accomplishments.

Back in Estolad, Amlach and Bereg have been the spokespeople for the growing anti-Elf sentiment. They are planning to hold a Council to decide what this group of people is going to do. The Council is going to be a major plot event in the story of the house of Hador. People are going to choose whether to settle in Dor-lomin with Hador or leave Beleriand and go back over the mountains. Hador talks to Fingon and explains that he plans to convince all his people to come back to Dor-lomin and live there.

There may be Elves present at the Council, possibly Fingon, Maedhros, Finrod, and/or Caranthir, but they will recognize that Men need to make this decision on their own and not try to interfere.

Hador goes to the Council and speaks to his people. He talks about how he knows Fingon personally, the land they could have in Dor-lomin, and the need to take part in the war against Morgoth. While Bereg and Amlach identify with the ordinary people, Hador is something different and wants to lead the house in a different direction. He becomes the House of Hador's first military leader with strong central authority, the king of his people. This is a change from their previous decentralized leadership and from the other houses (the House of Beor is ruled by a council of the wise; the House of Haleth is ruled by a tribal chieftain).

Although Bereg leads a sizable chunk of the population back over the mountains, Hador leads the majority of his people to Dor-lomin. They march north across Ard-galen. Fingon helps protect and guide them, and they pass defiantly before the gates of Angband. The group that goes with Hador is fairly unified because all the dissenters have left with Bereg.

Amlach

The Council is initiated by Bereg and Amlach, possibly in response to hostility from the Green-elves and an offer of safe passage back through the mountains from the Dwarves. If we want, we could move the location of Estolad closer to Ossiriand on the map. This group of Men is surrounded by Elves with whom they have not had good interactions: Green-elves, Caranthir, Eol, and Thingol. They come up with two options: Bereg is in favor of leaving Beleriand altogether, while Amlach wants to fight the Elves and claim Beleriand for themselves.

Sauron's big project in Season 5 will be building enmity between the House of Hador and the Elves. For Sauron, the best-case scenario would be a war between Elves and Men. The second-best would be to completely alienate them. Sauron has been in disguise as a Man and manipulating Amlach for a long time. He chooses to impersonate Amlach at the council because he doesn't trust Amlach to be persuasive enough and the things Sauron wants to say to encourage a war won't sound strange coming from Amalch. Before Hador arrives, the options at the Council are either to go back over the mountains or fight the Elves. When Hador shows up with a third option and thwarts Sauron's plan, it is the beginning of Morgoth's grudge against the House of Hador.

A few days before the Council, Amlach goes off to do something. Sauron leaves some minions behind to ambush Amlach and kill him. This fails, and Amlach is only wounded. He is rescued by somebody (maybe Maedhros or Amras or some random Dwarves) and nursed back to health. When Amlach realizes he missed the Council, he hurries back to Estolad and learns about fake Amlach. Amlach speaks now in support of Hador's plan to move to Dor-lomin and help the Elves, although he himself does not want to go. Amlach is still a warmonger, but now his hate is directed at Morgoth.

Amlach abdicates and goes to serve Maedhros alone. A large group of people should not follow Amlach to Himring because they would need a future storyline and there should not be people with Maedhros when he allies with the Easterlings.

The Council will take place after the Haladin settle in Brethil but before the House of Beor moves to Dorthonion.

Adanel

Adanel will be part of the council that leads the House of Beor. She and her young student Andreth will encourage the House of Beor to move to Dorthonion. When they go north to serve on the front lines, the House of Beor will need a military leader rather than a council. The House of Beor moves from a peaceful life directly to the front lines because they recognize that they are capable of quickly changing into a more warlike people.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-07: Storylines of Men pt. 3

Over the course of Season 5, the three houses of the Edain need to have distinct stories that focus on major characters. The two most important characters from the House of Hador will be Hador and Amlach. The House of Hador's relationship with the Elves will be between the House of Haleth (independent) and the House of Beor's (serving the Elves); they will be allies with the Elves and seen as equals.

Hador

In the book, Hador appears fairly late in the genealogy and is alive when the Dagor Bragollach starts, though he dies in the battle. For SilmFilm, he will be a character earlier in the genealogy so that the house will take its name from him early on.

The group of people that will eventually become the House of Hador do not have a strong central leader when first they enter Beleriand and settle in Estolad. They stick together because there is strength in numbers, and there are some influential families among them. This is where Hador, Amlach, and Bereg (who will be part of this house rather than the House of Beor and may need a name change) come from.

Elf-lords send emissaries to Estolad to recruit Men to serve them. Hador and a group of maybe around young 20 Men (and women) go to serve Fingon in Dor-lomin. Hador quickly shows himself to be a daring and heroic leader, which greatly impresses his own people and Fingon. Fingon gives Hador the Dragon-helm, and some of the people who came with Hador to Dor-lomin go back to Estolad to spread the news of Hador's accomplishments.

Back in Estolad, Amlach and Bereg have been the spokespeople for the growing anti-Elf sentiment. They are planning to hold a Council to decide what this group of people is going to do. The Council is going to be a major plot event in the story of the house of Hador. People are going to choose whether to settle in Dor-lomin with Hador or leave Beleriand and go back over the mountains. Hador talks to Fingon and explains that he plans to convince all his people to come back to Dor-lomin and live there.

There may be Elves present at the Council, possibly Fingon, Maedhros, Finrod, and/or Caranthir, but they will recognize that Men need to make this decision on their own and not try to interfere.

Hador goes to the Council and speaks to his people. He talks about how he knows Fingon personally, the land they could have in Dor-lomin, and the need to take part in the war against Morgoth. While Bereg and Amlach identify with the ordinary people, Hador is something different and wants to lead the house in a different direction. He becomes the House of Hador's first military leader with strong central authority, the king of his people. This is a change from their previous decentralized leadership and from the other houses (the House of Beor is ruled by a council of the wise; the House of Haleth is ruled by a tribal chieftain).

Although Bereg leads a sizable chunk of the population back over the mountains, Hador leads the majority of his people to Dor-lomin. They march north across Ard-galen. Fingon helps protect and guide them, and they pass defiantly before the gates of Angband. The group that goes with Hador is fairly unified because all the dissenters have left with Bereg.

Amlach

The Council is initiated by Bereg and Amlach, possibly in response to hostility from the Green-elves and an offer of safe passage back through the mountains from the Dwarves. If we want, we could move the location of Estolad closer to Ossiriand on the map. This group of Men is surrounded by Elves with whom they have not had good interactions: Green-elves, Caranthir, Eol, and Thingol. They come up with two options: Bereg is in favor of leaving Beleriand altogether, while Amlach wants to fight the Elves and claim Beleriand for themselves.

Sauron's big project in Season 5 will be building enmity between the House of Hador and the Elves. For Sauron, the best-case scenario would be a war between Elves and Men. The second-best would be to completely alienate them. Sauron has been in disguise as a Man and manipulating Amlach for a long time. He chooses to impersonate Amlach at the council because he doesn't trust Amlach to be persuasive enough and the things Sauron wants to say to encourage a war won't sound strange coming from Amalch. Before Hador arrives, the options at the Council are either to go back over the mountains or fight the Elves. When Hador shows up with a third option and thwarts Sauron's plan, it is the beginning of Morgoth's grudge against the House of Hador.

A few days before the Council, Amlach goes off to do something. Sauron leaves some minions behind to ambush Amlach and kill him. This fails, and Amlach is only wounded. He is rescued by somebody (maybe Maedhros or Amras or some random Dwarves) and nursed back to health. When Amlach realizes he missed the Council, he hurries back to Estolad and learns about fake Amlach. Amlach speaks now in support of Hador's plan to move to Dor-lomin and help the Elves, although he himself does not want to go. Amlach is still a warmonger, but now his hate is directed at Morgoth.

Amlach abdicates and goes to serve Maedhros alone. A large group of people should not follow Amlach to Himring because they would need a future storyline and there should not be people with Maedhros when he allies with the Easterlings.

The Council will take place after the Haladin settle in Brethil but before the House of Beor moves to Dorthonion.

Adanel

Adanel will be part of the council that leads the House of Beor. She and her young student Andreth will encourage the House of Beor to move to Dorthonion. When they go north to serve on the front lines, the House of Beor will need a military leader rather than a council. The House of Beor moves from a peaceful life directly to the front lines because they recognize that they are capable of quickly changing into a more warlike people.
I’m not quite onboard with having Hador not be alive and of fighting strength at the Dagor Bragollach. Whichever of his descendants who leads the House into battle and is KIA is likely going to have their death impact less on Fingolfin and Fingon than Hador, the great warrior who led his people to Dor-Lomin. Though if we go with the Hosts’ plan, what do we name the head of the House of Hador in that battle? And Hurin is explicitly stated to be Hador’s grandson in the text; either we age up Hurin or someone else is his grandfather.

Also, why not have Bereg be from the House of Beor? To piggyback off of @Nicholas Palazzo’s suggestion of having the House of Beor be somewhat dissolute during their years in Nargothrond, why not have Bereg be their representative, give him something to do? And if the House of Beor doesn’t send representatives, they appear almost apathetic.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I’m not quite onboard with having Hador not be alive and of fighting strength at the Dagor Bragollach. Whichever of his descendants who leads the House into battle and is KIA is likely going to have their death impact less on Fingolfin and Fingon than Hador, the great warrior who led his people to Dor-Lomin. Though if we go with the Hosts’ plan, what do we name the head of the House of Hador in that battle? And Hurin is explicitly stated to be Hador’s grandson in the text; either we age up Hurin or someone else is his grandfather.
I think that Corey Olsen agrees with you. His impulse was definitely to fudge the timeline to allow Hador to be a young man at the Council, and also have Hador be not-too-old-to-fight at the Dagor Bragollach. At the end of the day, that's not going to work, though. We can't push the Council that close to the Dagor Bragollach, because of Andreth's timeline.

The Hosts seemed content to allow Galdor to lead the House of Hador in the Dagor Bragollach. We won't want him to die there, but the death of his brother is canonical. I agree that it's unlikely to impact Fingon and Fingolfin as strongly as the death of Hador, but Hador can't be everywhere. Whoever is leading the House during the battle will be a minor character, and the focus will remain on Fingolfin (who will interact with this person as 'Hador's descendant', most likely). Renaming Galdor's father is also an option, as we've discussed before.

I am not in favor of messing with the dates for Húrin, Huor, Túrin, Tuor, or Beren. I think all of these characters should be born and die precisely when they do so in the texts, to avoid confusion later. The change here would be in the relationship between Húrin and Hador; Húrin is no longer his grandson. Now, we can use amysrevenge's idea of emphasizing distant relationships without stating them too precisely. So, calling Hador Húrin's "long-father" rather than his 'great-great-grandfather' (or whatever the relationship turns out to be) would be a fairly smooth fix/minor adjustment.

Also, why not have Bereg be from the House of Beor? To piggyback off of @Nicholas Palazzo’s suggestion of having the House of Beor be somewhat dissolute during their years in Nargothrond, why not have Bereg be their representative, give him something to do? And if the House of Beor doesn’t send representatives, they appear almost apathetic.
We will have an opportunity next session to discuss the House of Bëor, and their move from Nargothrond to Dorthonion. Certainly, we can bring up options for Bereg then. However, a few points - Bereg is a minor character who will *only* appear in the episode with the Council - we are not likely to give time to exploring his backstory, which is what any sort of attempt to explain why this scion of the House of Bëor now lives in Estolad is going to look like. So, *could* he be Bëorean, but in Estolad for *reasons*? Sure. But unless those reasons are pertinent to the larger story of the House of Bëor and/or the House of Hador, explaining that is a digression that we can't afford. Again, it's possible, but the focus shouldn't be on figuring out how we can get him in Estolad while keeping him related to Bëor, but rather on figuring out how his story contributes to telling the story of Men this season. We don't need to come up with a 'fix' or 'solution' to the problem of his heritage; we can change his heritage. If we keep it, then however we explain that away needs to be enriching the story of the Council in some way.

The other issue is that he is going to lead away a sizable chunk of the people of Hador at the end of the Council. Why would an 'outsider' be persuasive enough to convince the group to undertake a migration like that? It can happen, of course, but does it need to happen with a leader from outside the group we are trying to introduce? What does that add to the story? Tolkien had folk of Bëor living in Estolad, so having Bereg be one of them and one of the voices of dissent didn't require much explanation. We...do not have that. So, we'd have to explain why Bereg is there. Explain why some of these loosely-connected clans decide to listen to him and follow him. Bring up how he is not one of them, but still gains their trust. Etc. It's a story we could tell...but do we want to? What are we gaining by preserving Bereg's connection to the House of Bëor, and can we justify adding to his story in this way?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I guess I can live with moving Hurin’s relationship with Hador. I’ll have to throw out my suggestion on the Casting sub-forum, unfortunately.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I think we will have to have a serious conversation about the ethnicities of the Three Houses before getting too eager with casting suggestions, anyway. So, hold that thought!


Here is the order of events as currently laid out:

Story 1) Bëor comes to Beleriand and meets Finrod. He moves his people to Nargothrond. He lives and dies in Nargothrond as a vassal of Finrod.

Story 2) The Haladin build a stockade in Thargelion. It is attacked by orcs; her father and brother are killed. Haleth takes her people through Nan Dungortheb to eventually settle in Brethil.

Story 3) Unrest among the third and largest of the groups of the Edain leads to a Council in Estolad. As a result, Bereg (renamed?) leads a good chunk of the people out of Beleriand, back east over the mountains. Amlach leads a very small group of people (his immediate family?) to serve Maedhros at Himring. Hador leads the majority of the people to Dor-lomin.

Story 4) Trouble in paradise; the House of Bëor relocates from Nargothrond to Ladros to get a bit more breathing room. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor, and that ends tragically. Their people shift to a less idyllic and more rangery lifestyle.

Story 5) Dagor Bragollach. House of Hador answers Fingon/Fingolfin's call to arms. House of Bëor fights alongside Angrod and Aegnor (and is mostly wiped out). Barahir saves Finrod. An elderly Andreth has some thoughts to share. (Haleth's people stay in their woods and don't bother anyone)

Now, we don't have to tell these stories without overlap. Certainly, it is expected that some of these lives *will* overlap and potentially interact with one another. For instance, in story #1, it is important to introduce Bëor and move his people to Nargothrond before introducing any other story elements. But it is not essential that Bëor die before moving on to tell Story #2. And in Haleth's story, it's important that she be introduced and the battle of the stockade occur prior to the Council, but it is not necessarily true that we will have everything resolved with her happily settled in Brethil prior to the Council - simply that her viewpoint towards 'living among elves' must be clear and well-established prior to the Council (ie, she's already rejected Caranthir's offer, and has likely already had an interaction with Doriath). And we know that we want Hador to move his people to Dor-lomin prior to Andreth and Adanel convincing the House of Bëor to move to Ladros. And that Andreth will meet Aegnor in Ladros, not in Nargothrond.

...and that's why GANTT charts are helpful. They connect events in a 'this has to happen before that can happen' sort of way. I do have some regrets about not creating a real one, and just a pseudo-GANTT chart spreadsheet for this project. Ah well. I am sure we will make it work.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think we will have to have a serious conversation about the ethnicities of the Three Houses before getting too eager with casting suggestions, anyway. So, hold that thought!


Here is the order of events as currently laid out:

Story 1) Bëor comes to Beleriand and meets Finrod. He moves his people to Nargothrond. He lives and dies in Nargothrond as a vassal of Finrod.

Story 2) The Haladin build a stockade in Thargelion. It is attacked by orcs; her father and brother are killed. She takes her people through Nan Dungortheb to eventually settle in Brethil.

Story 3) Unrest among the third and largest of the groups of the Edain leads to a Council in Estolad. As a result, Bereg (renamed?) leads a good chunk of the people out of Beleriand, back east over the mountains. Amlach leads a very small group of people (his immediate family?) to serve Maedhros at Himring. Hador leads the majority of the people to Dor-lomin.

Story 4) Trouble in paradise; the House of Bëor relocates from Nargothrond to Ladros to get a bit more breathing room. Andreth falls in love with Aegnor, and that ends tragically. Their people shift to a less idyllic and more rangery lifestyle.

Story 5) Dagor Bragollach. House of Hador answers Fingon/Fingolfin's call to arms. House of Bëor fights alongside Angrod and Aegnor (and is mostly wiped out). Barahir saves Finrod. An elderly Andreth has some thoughts to share. (Haleth's people stay in their woods and don't bother anyone)

Now, we don't have to tell these stories without overlap. Certainly, it is expected that some of these lives *will* overlap and potentially interact with one another. For instance, in story #1, it is important to introduce Bëor and move his people to Nargothrond before introducing any other story elements. But it is not essential that Bëor die before moving on to tell Story #2. And in Haleth's story, it's important that she be introduced and the battle of the stockade occur prior to the Council, but it is not necessarily true that we will have everything resolved with her happily settled in Brethil prior to the Council - simply that her viewpoint towards 'living among elves' must be clear and well-established prior to the Council (ie, she's already rejected Caranthir's offer, and has likely already had an interaction with Doriath). And we know that we want Hador to move his people to Dor-lomin prior to Andreth and Adanel convincing the House of Bëor to move to Ladros. And that Andreth will meet Aegnor in Ladros, not in Nargothrond.

...and that's why GANTT charts are helpful. They connect events in a 'this has to happen before that can happen' sort of way. I do have some regrets about not creating a real one, and just a pseudo-GANTT chart spreadsheet for this project. Ah well. I am sure we will make it work.
Well, there's certainly threads to discuss the ethnicity of the Houses of the Edain, while the actor I had in mind for the Old Hador (circa Dagor Bragollach) is out because that part of the plot is outmoded.

For Story 5, don't Orcs attack Brethil in the years after the Dagor Bragollach, where Beleg brings a force to assist the Haladin?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The forest of Brethil storyline post- Dagor Bragollach involves a young Hurin and Huor, and so will be saved for the opening of Season 7.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
What should be the relationship between Hador and Galdor? I know in canon that they’re father and son, but given the alterations we’re making in the genealogy Hador will be too old to be Galdor’s father.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Good question! If we have simply 'swapped' Hador and Malach, then the genealogy would be:

Hador (307-398)
Magor (341-???)
Hathol (365-???)
'Aradan' (390-455)
Galdor (417-462)

So, if there are no other changes or alterations, Hador would become Galdor's great-great grandfather. Obviously, no generations between Hador and Galdor's father will appear on screen. So it's more an academic question, but one we should know the answer to so we don't create confusion.

Now, if the timing of the Council is shifted a bit, then that will shift Hador's years. Is Andreth 'still' born in 361 in our version? To be determined.....
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Good question! If we have simply 'swapped' Hador and Malach, then the genealogy would be:

Hador (307-398)
Magor (341-???)
Hathol (365-???)
'Aradan' (390-455)
Galdor (417-462)

So, if there are no other changes or alterations, Hador would become Galdor's great-great grandfather. Obviously, no generations between Hador and Galdor's father will appear on screen. So it's more an academic question, but one we should know the answer to so we don't create confusion.

Now, if the timing of the Council is shifted a bit, then that will shift Hador's years. Is Andreth 'still' born in 361 in our version? To be determined.....
Related: how old do we want Hador to be at the Council? If we retain the original date, Hador would (theoretically) be 61 when it takes place. If we want the Council to take place when Hador is younger, would the Council take place while Beor is alive?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm a bit confused as to what the trouble is with the chronology. Is there a reason why Hador needs to be born so early that the council taking place when he is a young man (say, mid-twenties), it would need to be taking place during Beor's lifetime? Similarly, is it necessary that doing so would cause a problem where Hador would be too old to father a child who would be young enough to fight in the Dagor Bragollach? And though we might miss Galdor's reunion with his sons, if the incident surrounding his death was moved to the tail end of the Dagor Bragollach, it could tie things up quite neatly.

So... let's say that Galdor is 50 at Dagor Bragollach. Old enough to have had his father die and to have two sons on the cusp of manhood, but young enough to be leading troops into battle. If he were born shortly after the move to Dor-lomin, that could put the council 55 BDB, and Hador's birth around 80 BDB, easily long enough ago for him to have died in the interim. If the move of the Beorians to Dorthonion takes place around 50 BDB, doesn't that put all the pieces in play where they need to be?
 
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