Session 5-13 and 5-14: Last of the Elves + Villains

I have less of a problem with this than with them being unwilling to go in and she just leaves them behind.
They'd probably insist on going; it's almost unheard of for a lady in The Silmarillion to go unaccompanied around Beleriand unless you're a powerful enchantress like Luthien; even with us we had Edhellos and her companions (or was she alone?) and when Morwen goes to Nargothrond to ascertain Turin's fate, she travels with 30 of Thingol's soldiers (plus Nienor).
 
Something on the Villains' storyline regarding Annael: how aware should the audience be that he's been put under Sauron's spell? Is it not immediately apparent and we see the spell cast in a flashback, or do we have Sauron put him under his spell and he's essentially a time bomb waiting to go off until he interferes with a rescue effort (is that what we have for the revealing event, right)?
There's been no discussion of an attempt to rescue the prisoners of Angband outside of my suggestion here on the boards, so I don't think we can say that's been decided on for sure.

I think that whether we show Sauron putting the spell on Annael or not in part depends on we're focusing on telling Sauron's story or Annael's story. If we're telling Sauron's story, it might be of interest to show how he performs his own version of the Spell of Bottomless Dread. If we're telling Annael's story, we may not want to make it immediately apparent and let the audience discover Annael's unwitting treachery as he does.
 
They'd probably insist on going; it's almost unheard of for a lady in The Silmarillion to go unaccompanied around Beleriand unless you're a powerful enchantress like Luthien; even with us we had Edhellos and her companions (or was she alone?) and when Morwen goes to Nargothrond to ascertain Turin's fate, she travels with 30 of Thingol's soldiers (plus Nienor).
I don't think it is merely the fact that Aredhel is a woman so much as this is what Turgon ordered them to do. According to The Silmarillion, "Turgon appointed three lords of his household to ride with Aredhel, and he bade them lead her to Fingon in Hithlum, if they might prevail upon her. 'And be wary,' he said; 'for though Morgoth be yet hemmed in the North there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing.'"

Turgon wasn't able to convince Aredhel to just go visit Fingon before she left, so the lords he sends with her are still trying to convince her, in addition to being there to protect her. However, after Aredhel declares that she intends rather to visit the sons of Feanor, "since she could not be dissuaded they turned south as she commanded, and sought admittance into Doriath." The march-wardens will not allow the Noldor to pass through Doriath on their journey east, so they have to go either north or south of it. Aredhel decides she wants to take the shortcut north, and the three lords appear to stay with her until they get separated near Nan Dungortheb.

We should certainly show the three lords trying to dissuade Aredhel from taking the dangerous road north of Doriath, but I think this would be an argument of practicality rather than cowardice (though Aredhel may accuse them of such). Perhaps, after hearing from the march-wardens of Doriath that it would be a long journey to the south and a dangerous journey to the north, the three lords suggest simply returning to Gondolin. Aredhel would then proclaim that she is not afraid of the dangerous road and resolve to go that way.
 
There's been no discussion of an attempt to rescue the prisoners of Angband outside of my suggestion here on the boards, so I don't think we can say that's been decided on for sure.

I think that whether we show Sauron putting the spell on Annael or not in part depends on we're focusing on telling Sauron's story or Annael's story. If we're telling Sauron's story, it might be of interest to show how he performs his own version of the Spell of Bottomless Dread. If we're telling Annael's story, we may not want to make it immediately apparent and let the audience discover Annael's unwitting treachery as he does.
So which way should we tell the story?
 
There's been no discussion of an attempt to rescue the prisoners of Angband outside of my suggestion here on the boards, so I don't think we can say that's been decided on for sure.

I think that whether we show Sauron putting the spell on Annael or not in part depends on we're focusing on telling Sauron's story or Annael's story. If we're telling Sauron's story, it might be of interest to show how he performs his own version of the Spell of Bottomless Dread. If we're telling Annael's story, we may not want to make it immediately apparent and let the audience discover Annael's unwitting treachery as he does.
My thought was to have it told from an outside POV, with Rhogrin's escape and Annael following along, with where he came from not apparent until a later scene where we learn he was just put under Sauron's spell; for that scene, Thurwingwethil or some other subordinate may ask Sauron what he is doing, and Sauron tells Thurwingwethil to keep an eye on them, which we learn later is part of having Thurwingwethil's presence trigger whatever subroutine Sauron has planted in Annael (this is an idea we've had for awhile now), in a nod to how vampires operated.
 
Since this is basically the same topic as last time minus Galadriel, Celeborn and the Green Elves/Men plotline I don't have much to add from the 5-12 Episode Question thread ^^ I'm really looking forward to the host's thoughts about what we even want to do with Gil-Galad's character and Cirdan's role in the season. In terms of the villains, I have really come to like the connection between the bad guys in Brethil (Tevildo) and at the Haladin's stockade battle (orcs) with the plot of Thuringwethil spying on the Pass of Aglon, enabling them to get through the siege-ring around Angband. And it ties into the role of the Aglon Pass in the Dagor Bragollach as well as Celegorm's+Huan's role in the battle and in Season 6. We'll need to work on it in detail during the script outline discussions, but it has great potential to be cool, neat and efficient =)
 
Since this is basically the same topic as last time minus Galadriel, Celeborn and the Green Elves/Men plotline I don't have much to add from the 5-12 Episode Question thread ^^ I'm really looking forward to the host's thoughts about what we even want to do with Gil-Galad's character and Cirdan's role in the season. In terms of the villains, I have really come to like the connection between the bad guys in Brethil (Tevildo) and at the Haladin's stockade battle (orcs) with the plot of Thuringwethil spying on the Pass of Aglon, enabling them to get through the siege-ring around Angband. And it ties into the role of the Aglon Pass in the Dagor Bragollach as well as Celegorm's+Huan's role in the battle and in Season 6. We'll need to work on it in detail during the script outline discussions, but it has great potential to be cool, neat and efficient =)
What role do you envision for the Pass of Aglon in the Dagor Bragollach? It doesn't seem to be mentioned.
 
What role do you envision for the Pass of Aglon in the Dagor Bragollach? It doesn't seem to be mentioned.

It is mentioned as being taken and temporarily re-taken during the Dagor Bragollach in the Silmarillion:

"For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor, and well nigh all the east marches were taken by assault. The Pass of Aglon was forced, though with great cost to the hosts of Morgoth; and Celegorm and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath, and coming at last to Nargothrond sought harbour with Finrod Felagund. Thus it came to pass that their people swelled the strength of Nargothrond; but it would have been better, as was after seen, if they had remained in the east among their own kin. "

"Thus the great fortress upon the Hill of Himring could not be taken, and many of the most valiant that remained, both of the people of Dorthonion and of the east marches, rallied there to Maedhros; and for a while he closed once more the Pass of Aglon, so that the Orcs could not enter Beleriand by that road. But they overwhelmed the riders of the people of Fëanor upon Lothlann, for Glaurung came thither, and passed through Maglor's Gap, and destroyed all the land between the arms of Gelion."

One of the important consequences of the Bragollach is the defeat of Celegorm and Curufin and their flight to Nargothrond. They'll arrive there in Season 6, which in the text is already foreshadowed to play an unfortunate role later on; but I don't think we need more setup for Season 6 than the discovery of Huan's doom and the flight and defeat of the two brothers ^^
 
Session 5-13: Thingol, Círdan, and Gil-galad

Thingol


Thingol’s reaction to Beren in Season 6 should be shocking; he should not just seem like a jerk to Men from the beginning. However, his actions in Season 5 should be setting this up. Thingol can have dreams like in the book, but that should not be his only motivation. Thingol already doesn’t let most of the Noldor into Doriath, but that was for personal reasons, and he still lets some allies in. Thingol can have a dream that is not a specific message or warning, and he chooses to interpret it as a warning. His foreboding could be about Lúthien’s meeting a Man and dying or a Man coming and giving him something, which would represent both Beren giving him a Silmaril and Húrin giving him the Nauglamír.

We should downplay the dream. Thingol has political motives as well, such as the House of Hador’s unfriendship with the Green-elves. The Haladin’s arrival and request for entry can seem like the fulfilment of Thingol’s foreboding. Maybe Hador first tries to go to Doriath and is turned away at the border.

The idea to ban Men should not come from Melian; Melian will say that a Man will enter Doriath despite Thingol’s decree. Thingol gets into trouble with Beren and the Silmaril by trying to resist doom. He thinks he can avoid the consequences by banning Men from Doriath and will not heed Melian’s warning.

Thingol’s arc for this season would be a shadow falling on his heart, hearing from Celeborn about bad things Men have done in Ossiriand, denying the Haladin passage through Doriath (Beleg will increasingly come to admire the Haladin), and being convinced by Beleg to let the Haladin stay in Brethil.

How does the magic of the Girdle of Melian work? Not a wall or physical barrier, not always just turning them around. The Haladin may try to enter the Girdle, but their wills would not be able to overcome Melian’s will, and they would feel like they really don’t want to go that way. Melian’s will enforces Thingol’s decrees. She might be able to give delegation power of some kind to the marchwardens. The girdle can judge whether people are worthy to some extent, which will shape Melian’s view of Beren when he gets through.

Círdan

There is not really a point of building ocean-faring ships since Valinor is closed. Círdan may stubbornly hold out on his vision despite the circumstances. Círdan’s purpose is building havens on the coast and ships to ferry Elves to Valinor. Círdan can be shown in juxtaposition to another Elf who undergoes a crisis of faith, possibly Fingolfin.

Turgon will try to send messengers to Valinor from Gondolin after the Dagor Bragollach, but that may not happen this season.

Gil-galad

Gil-galad will be born early in the season. He will be born during a time of peace and away from the front lines. Gil-galad can be an antiparallel for Maeglin, as they will be growing up around the same time.

Why does Gil-galad end up with Círdan? Not just because Orodreth wants to keep him safe. Gil-galad should choose to go to Círdan. Gil-galad might first go to Nargothrond with the rest of his family and be sent away when Celegorm and Curufin usurp Nargothrond. Celebrimbor might suggest that Gil-galad leave.

Gil-galad might interact with Men in order to set up the Last Alliance, potentially by growing up more slowly than children in the House of Bëor. However, just using him as a point of contrast like this makes him seem less important and momentous than he should be. Gil-galad’s interactions with Eärendil and the refugees will be better for setting up the Last Alliance.

Next session, we will discuss the villains and Rhogrin and Annael’s escape in the context of the villains’ story.
 
Thanks for the summary @Rhiannon
I am sad that there wasn't more discussion about Círdan. I've tried to post ideas the last weeks but it's been frustrating since he was supposed to come up and then wasn't, more than once. The process is hard to follow asynchronously, especially since the sessions are posted on Youtube and not as podcasts anymore (at least to my knowledge) - YouTube is harder to follow for me for various reasons. I would really have wanted to be online during the discussion. Words like "stubbornly" don't match my idea of how Círdan should be portrayed at all. But on the other hand, I guess the idea of juxtaposition sounds good. I would have wanted some interaction with Finrod, and connect Círdan with the theme more, though.
 
Thanks for the summary @Rhiannon
I am sad that there wasn't more discussion about Círdan. I've tried to post ideas the last weeks but it's been frustrating since he was supposed to come up and then wasn't, more than once. The process is hard to follow asynchronously, especially since the sessions are posted on Youtube and not as podcasts anymore (at least to my knowledge) - YouTube is harder to follow for me for various reasons. I would really have wanted to be online during the discussion. Words like "stubbornly" don't match my idea of how Círdan should be portrayed at all. But on the other hand, I guess the idea of juxtaposition sounds good. I would have wanted some interaction with Finrod, and connect Círdan with the theme more, though.

I can see why the hosts don't have much time for many of the characters considering how in-depth this planning phase has become and how little time an hour per week is, but your efforts aren't overlooked here on the forums! The hosts didn't really offer more than a rough outline of Cirdan's role in the season and there's still room for at least some of your ideas. I at least really liked what you came up with and am all for it being influential when we actually get to discussing script outlines...and I don't think I'm alone on that =)
 
I can see why the hosts don't have much time for many of the characters considering how in-depth this planning phase has become and how little time an hour per week is, but your efforts aren't overlooked here on the forums! The hosts didn't really offer more than a rough outline of Cirdan's role in the season and there's still room for at least some of your ideas. I at least really liked what you came up with and am all for it being influential when we actually get to discussing script outlines...and I don't think I'm alone on that =)
Thanks, well I didn't mean to whine...sorry! I just miss the fun.
 
Thanks for the summary @Rhiannon
I am sad that there wasn't more discussion about Círdan. I've tried to post ideas the last weeks but it's been frustrating since he was supposed to come up and then wasn't, more than once. The process is hard to follow asynchronously, especially since the sessions are posted on Youtube and not as podcasts anymore (at least to my knowledge) - YouTube is harder to follow for me for various reasons. I would really have wanted to be online during the discussion. Words like "stubbornly" don't match my idea of how Círdan should be portrayed at all. But on the other hand, I guess the idea of juxtaposition sounds good. I would have wanted some interaction with Finrod, and connect Círdan with the theme more, though.
Well, sometimes the Hosts don’t follow what’s been discussed on the discussion boards, and for some of the podcasts what’s being discussed can come out of left field; Gandalf among the Haradrim comes to mind for me (and I have my own doubts on how it’ll work since the Haradrim are firmly in Sauron’s pocket by the 30th Century Third Age), and there wasn’t much discussion on Celeborn and Galadriel from Season 5 and then we devoted an entire episode to them. I myself been hoping to get to the Villains’ for a while now and we’re supposed to get to them next session... except I’ll miss the first part of it and subsequent sessions through November due to a class I’m taking.
 
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Círdan

There is not really a point of building ocean-faring ships since Valinor is closed.

I might be missing some context here (didn't hear the session), but surely the point of building ships is to build ships?

Like, did the Teleri in Valinor only build their ships as cross-ocean transport devices, or did they build their ships because they loved the sea and they loved building ships?
 
Recall that in Season 2, Olwë and Círdan both had prophetic dreams from Ulmo in which they were given a purpose. So that the elves would not be sundered forever, they would both become mariners, building ships that can traverse an ocean.

Olwë succeeded first, with the swanships. Círdan is still working on it, but will get there soon.

What has changed is the hiding of Valinor, but Círdan has estel, so he continues in the hope that one day it will be possible.

Resurrected Olwë returning with the Hosts of the Valar in the War of Wrath will be the moment Círdan's hopes are realized.

(But yes, they both love building ships, outside their mission)
 
A comment

I know that it is confusing and frustrating when the posts announced here do not match the content of the sessions. This is largely a problem I have created. So, I will offer an explanation and an apology.

With the 'miscellaneous elves' topic, I was very uncertain how the discussion of them would go in the sessions. They all play a very minor, tangential role in Season 5, but are major characters in the project overall. So, it was possible the hosts would decide, well, not much on them for now, just have them appear for this one thing this season, and we'll come back to them in the future, when they are more important. Such a discussion would likely be. . .very brief. Or, they could spend time puzzling out how to advance these characters' stories this season, despite how they are removed from the main storyline. Obviously, that takes longer.

I was not sure which way the discussion would go, so I chose to err on the side of giving them too much material rather than too little. If I had just given them 'miscellaneous elves' in Session 12 and they blasted through that in 45 minutes...then what? So I added in the Villains to make sure we were good. And I included that content in the posts here, so that everyone has the opportunity to contribute prior to the session where it will be discussed.

Clearly, that was the wrong judgement call. They wanted to talk about Galadriel and Thingol at length, and the Villains discussion is completely removed from that. We will talk about the villains in session 5-14. But by now, everyone is impatient to get to that topic, because it has been 'teased' through 2 sessions.

Naturally, it is frustrating for everyone here when I say, 'we are going to talk about x!'...and then we do not talk about x. I do apologize. I do not typically have an 'inside track' with Corey Olsen about how the sessions are going to go. Sometimes I guess wrong. And over the past 2 seasons, I have tended to err on the side of overly ambitious plans to make sure we were prepared, but that is not fair to posters here. I am sorry. I will try to be more transparent about when I am reasonably confident concerning what we will discuss, and when I am. . .including too much just to be safe.
 
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A comment

I know that it is confusing and frustrating when the posts announced here do not match the content of the sessions. This is largely a problem I have created. So, I will offer an explanation and an apology.

With the 'miscellaneous elves' topic, I was very uncertain how the discussion of them would go in the sessions. They all play a very minor, tangential role in Season 5, but are major characters in the project overall. So, it was possible the hosts would decide, well, not much on them for now, just have them appear for this one thing this season, and we'll come back to them in the future, when they are more important. Such a discussion would likely be. . .very brief. Or, they could spend time puzzling out how to advance these characters' stories this season, despite how they are removed from the main storyline. Obviously, that takes longer.

I was not sure which way the discussion would go, so I chose to err on the side of giving them too much material rather than too little. If I had just given them 'miscellaneous elves' in Session 12 and they blasted through that in 45 minutes...then what? So I added in the Villains to make sure we were good. And I included that content in the posts here, so that everyone has the opportunity to contribute prior to the session where it will be announced.

Clearly, that was the wrong judgement call. They wanted to talk about Galadriel and Thingol at length, and the Villains discussion is completely removed from that. We will talk about the villains in session 5-14. But by now, everyone is impatient to get to that topic, because it has been 'teased' through 2 sessions.

Naturally, it is frustrating for everyone here when I say, 'we are going to talk about x!'...and then we do not talk about x. I do apologize. I do not typically have an 'inside track' with Corey Olsen about how the sessions are going to go. Sometimes I guess wrong. And over the past 2 seasons, I have tended to err on the side of overly ambitious plans to make sure we were prepared, but that is not fair to posters here. I am sorry. I will try to be more transparent about when I am reasonably confident what we will discuss, and when I am. . .including too much just to be safe.
I would like to point out that I consider the amount of people who have done anything wrong or even made a mistake to be exactly zero. I think it’s been clear all along, or for a long time, that the ambition or idea that a given session is going to have a predictable content is always closer to a hope or a guess than it is a promise.
 
Thank you for that. I may not have done anything wrong, but I think it is fair to say that the way I've communicated has led to some frustration, disappointment, and confusion, so an improvement in communication might make this a better experience for all involved. It is true that I do not have the power to set the content for the podcast, so it is guesswork on my part, not a promise of guaranteed content. On that note, I am going to see if I can put together a calendar, so people can look ahead to see what is *tentatively* coming - that way, everyone knows what I know, and can adjust their expectations accordingly.
 
Thank you for that. I may not have done anything wrong, but I think it is fair to say that the way I've communicated has led to some frustration, disappointment, and confusion, so an improvement in communication might make this a better experience for all involved. It is true that I do not have the power to set the content for the podcast, so it is guesswork on my part, not a promise of guaranteed content. On that note, I am going to see if I can put together a calendar, so people can look ahead to see what is *tentatively* coming - that way, everyone knows what I know, and can adjust their expectations accordingly.
That would be nice :).
 
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