Session 5-15: Season Outline

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
A few things are coming out in this discussion. There seems to be grave misunderstandings about the timeline, and we will need to work that out prior to sorting out what events go in what episodes. So, again, with the GANTT chart, let's focus on identifying all the discrete events/stories we want to tell, roughly in order for each storyline or character. We can wait on the Villains for 2 weeks, as the Villain discussion will no doubt inform that, but we should have all the info we need for the Men and the Elves at this point.

Also, it's important to remember that we aren't starting from scratch here. We have already had 13 sessions (approx 26 hours of discussion) regarding the content of Season 5. All of that discussion should inform our decisions in putting together a timeline and a season outline. If we have made decisions about which events happen prior to other events, those decisions should be reflected in the suggestions here.

Some things are definitely up for debate, and likely won't be finalized prior to the Session in 4 weeks when we sit down with the hosts and hash this all out. Something like...where does Aredhel's story begin and end? There is some flexibility to tell that story in a way we want to tell it, while moving events to different parts of the timeline, earlier or later in the season. For those events, I'm willing to indicate 'question marks' on the GANTT chart and include a variety of opinions of how to proceed. I still want to figure out the elements of her story and now it progresses, at least.

I am not willing to rearrange items whose timing has already been discussed and determined. I consider those discussions the starting point of how to build the episodes. So, we will introduce the House of Bëor in Episode 1. We will introduce the House of Haleth next with the Stockade Battle. And then we will introduce the House of Hador (including Hador). We are not going to have the conflict between the House of Hador and the Green Elves in Episode 1. That is not what was discussed or decided, and therefore does not work. (If you do not recall that, this post from May clarifies it: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-5-03-season-outline.3847/page-10#post-34460 )
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I am just making suggestions.

I wanted to try to combine our different storylines in a way that takes into account thematic connections between events as a way of potentially making the story more cohesive. Because we did not discuss the layout of the season as a whole before discussing the individual storylines, decisions about the ordering of events did not necessarily take into account thematic and chronological factors.

So, my reasoning for introducing the House of Hador before the Haladin included several factors:
  • The encounter with the Green-elves comes before the introduction of Hador and is largely shown from and Elvish perspective, so it's not really an introduction to that house and its views about Elves.
  • If the House of Hador has their encounter with the Green-elves several episodes (and decades) before the council, then the different opinions about Elves within that house will have had time to grow across generations.
  • However exactly we choose to tell it, the escape of Rhogrin and Annael, will likely provide an opportunity for young Hador to earn renown and be given the Dragon-helm.
  • Showing Sauron's plans for Annael fail because of Annael's self-exile would give him a motivation to switch focus and look at what he can do to turn Men against Elves
    • Men's opinions about their mortality would come up in the episode about the death of Beor, so Sauron's epiphany could happen in this episode
  • Having Hador around when Fingolfin learns about the death of Beor gives us an opportunity to hear another Man's perspective about death, if we choose to do so.
  • The Battle at the Stockade, which introduces the Haladin and makes clear their views about Elves, still happens before the Council.

Also, I noticed that I had Aredhel deciding to leave Gondolin and then appearing to wait decades to actually do so in my timeline post. That was a typo on my part, and I've corrected it in that post.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I certainly appreciate the suggestions, and do think that making connections between our storylines is helpful. My frustration was with many items being placed at points on the timeline that did not work. So, if we can clean that up, the suggestions may be more viable. A lot of what you are suggesting about Hador, the Green Elves, and Rhogrin/Annael could fit in the Episode 5-6 part of the story. It does not fit in Episode 1-2. Certainly, I am not requiring anyone to think through all implications of their suggestions before posting - you can suggest anything, and those here can consider whether or not it would work. But since your suggestion took the form a fully outlined season, I was dismayed to see that timeline decisions that were established months ago had been disregarded. Your suggested outline is not usable in its original form. I am not saying that it can't be salvaged; merely that work needs to be done on the timing of multiple items.


Here are a list of timeline constraints for the Men this season. Any proposed season 5 timelines need to follow these constraints, or address why events are falling outside these established timelines. If someone interprets our prior discussions differently than I have, I welcome that conversation. What I do not welcome is being diverted to discuss something which ignores the discussions we've already had in the podcasts.


  • House of Bëor is introduced first (Main characters: Bëor, Adanel, Andreth, Barahir)
  • Bëor dies of old age before any other deaths of 'natural causes' in Nargothrond
  • The House of Bëor stays in Nargothrond for roughly 3 generations, so that at the time of Andreth, no one among their people personally remembers their time wandering in the East
  • Adanel is contemporary with both Bëor and Andreth
  • Andreth is a young woman in her 20's when the decision to move to Dorthonion is made, after Hador moves to Dor-lómin
  • Andreth meets Haleth before going to Dorthonion
  • Andreth meets and falls in love with Aegnor after moving to Dorthonion
  • Barahir is a young child during the move to Dorthonion, and a man no older than 50 in the Dagor Bragollach

  • House of Haleth is introduced second (Main character: Haleth)
  • Haleth is a young woman during the attack on the stockade; her twin brother has a child (prior to Council)
  • Haleth settles in Brethil after migrating through Nan Dungortheb
  • An elderly Haleth meets a young Andreth
  • Double wedding?

  • House of Hador is introduced third (Main characters: Hador, Galdor)
  • There is conflict with the Green Elves, involving the discovery of a hanged corpse. Galadriel and Celeborn mediate.
  • A young Hador takes service with Fingolfin and wins renown
  • Council - Amlach and Bereg (middle-aged) vs Hador (young man in his 20s) - happens after the stockade battle
  • House of Hador moves to Dor-lómin - happens prior to the House of Bëor moving to Dorthonion
  • Double wedding?
  • Galdor, son of Hador, fights in the Dagor Bragollach

So, there are ranges of dates when events can occur, but they can't just happen whenever. And as you choose the timing for one event, it constrains others.

Dagor Bragollach = FA 455
(Double wedding = FA 435-440)
Birth of Barahir = FA 405-415
Death of Haleth = after FA 406
Move to Dorthonion = FA 406 - 420
Birth of Galdor = FA 400-421
Birth of Andreth = FA 380 - 400
Council = FA 380-405
Haladin settle in Brethil = 365-405
Stockade battle = FA 350-390
Finrod meets Bëor = FA 310-350
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Items marked in red do not work.

310-320:
Episodes 1 (Finrod meets House of Beor, Green-elves meet House of Hador, reactions to Men)


350-355:
Episode 2 (Finrod deals with Thingol and Dwarves, Aredhel decides to leave Gondolin)
Episode 3 (Hador in Hithlum, Escape from Angband, Aredhel's journey from Gondolin to Aglon)
Episode 4 (Death of Beor, discovery of Annael's treachery, Aredhel marries Eol)

370-375:
Episode 5 (Battle of the Stockade, Villains stuff)
Episode 6 (Council in Estolad with fake Amlach, Haleth through Nan Dungortheb)

390-395:
Episode 7 (House of Beor relocates, Haleth kills Tevildo, Young Maeglin hears stories of Gondolin)
Episode 8 (Andreth and Aegnor love story, Cirdan and/or Fingolfin subplot)

400-450:
Episode 9 (Aredhel's return to Gondolin, Celegorm and Huan subplot)
Episode 10 (Fingolfin's push to attack Angband, Andreth passes leadership to Barahir)
Episode 11 (Athrabeth, Double wedding, Maeglin in Gondolin)

455:
Episode 12 (Dagor Bragollach pt. 1)
Episode 13 (Dagor Bragollach pt. 2)
And I suspect that the only reason Episodes 9-11 work is because the range of time given is 50 years. Many of these other events are placed within an untenable range of years. I'm sorry, but this does not work. I know you were not in favor of compression in the timeline this season, but that decision has been made and reaffirmed by Corey Olsen multiple times.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, I've been thinking a bit about Fingolfin's Big Push campaigning tour. We've talked a bit about the reasons why Maedhros turns him down, but I don't want to downplay the fact that Maedhros knows better than anyone that they just aren't ready. So it occurred to me that when Fingolfin comes to him, Maedhros brings him to the "war room" in Himring. Maedhros has a scale model of Thangorodrim set up there (based upon his observations as well as those of the Feanorian scouts [and maybe escaped prisoners]) and he uses it to describe what an assault on Angband would look like. He's calculated it all out, including the casualties they will suffer at each stage (the approach, the assault on the main gate, so on and so forth.)

Not only is this in keeping with Maedhros' character, but it also will help set up Fingolfin's one-man assault. He knows that their armies couldn't take Angband without a lot more help. Help that no one seems able or willing to provide.
Has Maedhros been one for that type of detail?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Another thing to consider when deciding on when Fingolfin should propose his Big Push is the life of Hador. Hador is introduced as a brave young warrior, winning renown. He gets the Dragon Helm, establishes his people in Dor-lómin, and is all ready to be a warrior king.

And then they wait. Sure, things happen, but his life is passing. Does he get impatient to attack and leap at Fingolfin's idea? If so, the contrast of him being too old in the Dagor Bragollach will further the 'missed opportunity' angle of the story. Or is Hador already too old to fight when Fingolfin proposes this idea, and it's already clear that it would be up to young Galdor to lead an army of Men from Dor-lómin?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Another thing to consider when deciding on when Fingolfin should propose his Big Push is the life of Hador. Hador is introduced as a brave young warrior, winning renown. He gets the Dragon Helm, establishes his people in Dor-lómin, and is all ready to be a warrior king.

And then they wait. Sure, things happen, but his life is passing. Does he get impatient to attack and leap at Fingolfin's idea? If so, the contrast of him being too old in the Dagor Bragollach will further the 'missed opportunity' angle of the story. Or is Hador already too old to fight when Fingolfin proposes this idea, and it's already clear that it would be up to young Galdor to lead an army of Men from Dor-lómin?
My thought was the latter: Hador would be too old (judging by what we have he's dead by the time the Dagor Bragollach breaks out) and Fingolfin proposes the idea.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The timelines of the Elves are of course much more flexible than for the humans. For Fingolfin, it won't matter nearly so much as to when he presses for an attack. But for Hador...it's going to matter a good deal.

Here are the dates I currently have for Hador:

Hador:
  • born in FA 378
  • council in 399 (age 21)
  • marries Gildis within the next 10 years (age 27-31)
  • birth of his daughter in 410 (age 32)
  • birth of his son Galdor in 412 (age 34)
  • birth of his son Gundor in 414 (age 36)
  • death in FA 450 (age 72)
Hador's life has consisted of:
  • teenage adventures
  • unites his people into a cohesive group and emerges as their leader
  • establishes a kingdom in Dor-lómin, separate from the Noldor but in allegiance with them
  • gets married, has kids
  • passes his role to his eldest son Galdor
  • dies peacefully

I do think that Fingolfin's Big Push initiative needs to happen after the House of Bëor has relocated to Ladros (c. 406-420). While the existence of a small community of Bëorians isn't going to make or break the Noldor's war effort, it will fit the story better to have all the pieces in place. So, yes, the story with Fingolfin should come after the romance of Aegnor and Andreth. But if it's in FA 420, Hador will be 42 years old with three young children at home, which would be a very different story than if it comes in FA 440, when he is 62 years old, with three adult children.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
It occurs to me that it might be helpful to do that with the rest of the main character Men as well. Some of these dates are flexible, but the ones listed here should all work with each other (if I've done this correctly). If anyone has a question about moving a particular date, we can look at the implications and re-evaluate. So, these dates aren't all final, but some of them are 'fixed' (ie, we're not shifting the birth of Húrin).

So, continuing the House of Hador:

Galdor: (do we want to keep his name? we don't want him confused with the elf in Gondolin)
  • born FA 412
  • marries Hareth FA 436 (age 24)
  • birth of son Húrin FA 441 (age 29)
  • birth of son Huor FA 444 (age 32)
  • Dagor Bragollach FA 455 (age 43)
  • death FA 462 (age 50)
Galdor's story will be split between the end of Season 5 and the beginning of Season 7 (and he may appear in the background in Season 6, as well). For this season, his story consists of:
  • growing up in Dor-lómin
  • marrying someone from the House of Haleth at a feast
  • having kids
  • inheriting his father's position as ruler of Dor-lómin at Hador's death
  • fighting in the Dagor Bragollach, and losing his younger brother
His story will continue in later seasons with:
  • interactions with the refugees from Dorthonion
  • loss of his teenage sons
  • mysterious return of said sons
  • death in battle defending his land

Moving along to the House of Haleth...we really only have one significant character here - and that is Haleth!:
  • born FA 345, in Beleriand
  • defends her family's stockade from orcs in 375 (age 30)
  • kills Tevildo and moves into Brethil ??? (date TBD)
  • dies FA 420 (age 75)
Her story will consist of:
  • growing up in a frontier stockade near (but not too near) elf settlements with a father and twin brother (and mother?)
  • establishing her independence and stubbornness from a young age
  • not marrying when she grows up, though her brother marries and has a child
  • assisting in organizing the defense of the stockade, and then, at the death of her father and brother, taking leadership
  • rejecting Caranthir's offer
  • seeking (and being denied) passage through Doriath
  • crossing Nan Dungortheb will all her people
  • seeking to settle in Brethil, and with some negotiations, being granted permission by Thingol
  • kills Tevildo, settles in Brethil
  • meets a young Andreth
  • dies in peace, leadership passing to her brother's child

The House of Bëor is more involved; we have four main characters to keep track of over the entire season.

Bëor:
  • born FA 272
  • meets Finrod c. 320 (age 48)
  • dies FA 365 (age 91)
Bëor's story consists of:
  • leading a small group of people over the mountains into Beleriand (mostly young families; no old people)
  • meets Finrod and decides that elves are the best ever
  • moves his people to Nargothrond at Finrod's invitation
  • leads his people as a vassal of Finrod
  • dies peacefully of old age, leadership passing to the wise woman Adanel
Adanel [very little about her has been discussed in the podcasts so far, simply that she is the bridge between Bëor and Andreth as leader of the House of Bëor, and that she supports Andreth and speaks in favor of her, as well as serving as her mentor. It was suggested that she could have been a child when they moved into Nargothrond, rather than born there herself]
  • born c. FA 330, in Nargothrond?
  • dies c. FA 410, in Dorthonion? (age 80ish?)
Adanel's story
  • a wise woman of the House of Bëor, she collects stories and learns the history of her people
  • she is trusted by Bëor to lead the people after him; she must share his love for the Elves
  • she becomes the teacher of a young Andreth, who is hungry for knowledge and impresses Adanel with her insight
  • she champions Andreth's ideas to make a change for the House of Bëor and leave Nargothrond, passing leadership to her
  • the journey to Ladros is difficult for her, and she does not survive for many years after they arrive?
Andreth
  • born FA 389
  • decides to move her people out of Nargothrond in 410 (age 21)
  • meets Aegnor and falls in love, c. 412 (age 22-25)
  • transfers leadership to Barahir, c. 425 (age 36)
  • flees Dorthonion with the refugees in 455 (age 66)
  • dies c. FA 465 (age 76)
Andreth's story
  • She is a bright young wise-woman who earns the respect of her mentor Adanel and of Finrod
  • She perceives the unrest of the House of Bëor, and seeks a home for them outside Nargothrond
  • She meets an elderly Haleth and decides...not that
  • She moves her people to Ladros in Dorthonion
  • She meets Aegnor, and over time they fall in love
  • She is heartbroken when he leaves her, but speaks of this to no one
  • She perceives that her people no longer require a wise-woman leader, but will need a leader on the battlefield, so passes leadership to her young kinsman Barahir
  • She eventually speaks of her grief over Aegnor with Finrod
  • When war comes, she leads the refugees away from Dorthonion to Brethil/Dor-lómin with Barahir's wife Emeldir
  • She survives the Dagor Bragollach, but will not live until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Barahir:
  • born FA 405 in Nargothrond
  • moves to Ladros in 410 (age 5)
  • becomes leader of the House of Bëor c. 425 (age 20)
  • marries Emeldir c. 430 (age 25)
  • his son Beren is born in 432 (age 27)
  • rescues Finrod in the Dagor Bragollach in 455 (age 50)
  • dies in FA 460 (age 55)
Barahir's story
  • grows up in Ladros, training as a soldier/scout/tracker/outdoorsman type
  • establishes himself as a leader of the new, post-Nargothrond generation
  • Andreth transfers leadership of their people to him (perhaps retains some aspect of the position for herself?)
  • when he heroically rescues Finrod, Finrod gives him his ring
  • stays in Dorthonion after the battle with a small group of surviving rebel fighters
  • unfortunate massacre



I hope this is helpful for trying to put together the season outline. Again, this is a proposed list of dates rather than a finalized version - some of these have a good deal of wiggle room; others are nearly fixed. The timelines of Men for the season were discussed most explicitly in Session 5-9 in July, if anyone would like to review what was said there:


Most of this is guidelines rather than explicit instructions. So, how long does the House of Bëor live in Nargothrond? Not as long as 100 years, but not as short as 50 years. Andreth is born after the death of Bëor. Few people in Nargothrond have memories of the time before they moved in, though the elders could have been children at that time. Etc. So, we don't have to have the meeting of Bëor happen in 320; it could happen in 330.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I never took Maedhros for a meticulous, detail-oriented type of guy.
I do take him for the kind of guy who has been planning how to attack Angband for hundreds of years now. He would have a plan, and it would be rather detailed. He hasn't done anything yet, because he knows they don't have the numbers, and Morgoth has a dragon. A scale model merely serves as a good visual for the audience. If you want, his brother Maglor could have built the actual model, if you think that's more in his personality.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
GANTT chart logic statements:

You know those puzzles, where they tell you a bunch of statements about how people relate to each other, and it's your job to figure out who the person the original question is about points to? That's how GANTT charts work. You have to establish the relationship between each of the events. What do you have to do first, in order to complete the next task? And how long does that take, so you don't get to the end of the project and then realize, oops, forgot to apply for the permits.... They are good for planning a work schedule, so everyone involved knows what the critical path is and can stay focused.

We're just planning a season plot arc, so our needs are simpler. But many of these plot elements do relate to one another. So, to figure out the relationships, it might help to list all the constraints. This list is far from complete, but should help get us started with making sure we don't get off track as we move things around from episode to episode trying to build an outline.

Aredhel travels through Nan Dungortheb before Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb.​
Bëor dies before the attack on the Stockade.​
Bëor dies before Andreth is born; he is her ancestor, not a grandfather she has fond memories of.​
The House of Bëor spends 50-100 years in Nargothrond. No one has living memory of their travels from the East when they leave.​
Adanel is a contemporary of both Bëor and Andreth. She is old enough to have been given a leadership role when Bëor dies, and young enough to travel to Dorthonion with Andreth.​
Fingolfin's Big Push comes after Aegnor's failed romance with Andreth​
The Haladin are introduced after the House of Bëor and before the House of Hador​
Hador wins renown in the north prior to the Council​
Hador tries to enter Doriath before going to Fingolfin?​
Andreth visits Haleth long after the Haladin have settled in Brethil, but prior to Haleth's death​
Etc.​
What other events are linked to each other, in the sense that one must happen before another?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I know I keep saying 'this season is very full.' Obviously, we can tell however many stories we want...but they will have to share screen time. If we try to tell more than 3 stories in one episode, then they will all get less than 15 minutes, or one of them will only get a single 4 minute scene, etc. Now, in some cases, one brief scene will tell all we need, and that's fine. Keep in mind that the frame gets 2-3 scenes per episode, as well.

An 'A' plot is the main plot line of the episode. The characters appear in all 4 acts of the episode, and the main conflict is resolved during the climax towards the end of the episode. The protagonist is a single character from the A-plot from whose point of view we see the story unfold.

The B-plot is the side story. It's also something the audience is following, but less time is devoted to this plot line and it may feel less 'crucial' to the story of the episode.

The C-plot does not appear throughout the episode. Perhaps there will be a single scene in the middle of the episode, or two scenes as a before/after to establish something. These vignettes must speak for themselves and cannot tell the story of a complex plot. They have to give the audience a glimpse of something. Ideal for villain plots if we don't want to reveal too much, or for 'teasing' an upcoming storyline, or for showing a 'day in the life' scene for some of our characters (Men settling into their new home after a migration, Aredhel's life in Nan Elmoth, a visit with Círdan, etc.)

So, given that, another approach to planning would be to see how much 'space' we have, and if we can fit all the events we plan for our season into the available episodes. It *can* be done, but it's a squeeze, and this is before fully integrating the villain plots we'll talk about next time.


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There's still space for some 'Thuringwethil the spy' action at the Pass of Aglon, and other minor stories. But there's not that much free space, and a lot of these events are rather time-constrained, so it's not easy to just shift them around. Naturally, that doesn't mean that *nothing* can move. I have the 'romance' portion of Aredhel and Eöl's relationship happening in Episodes 3-4. It's possible that Episode 3 could end with her accepting his proposal, and then episode 4 opens with a private wedding. Or something. So, which Episode contains the wedding is not hugely important. However...Episode 3 is (in this scheme) the 'wow, Bëor got old fast!' episode, so if we are emphasizing the 'hasty' nature of Aredhel's courtship, then we probably wouldn't want her decision regarding Eöl to still be in question at the end of the episode. We have to get that resolved. I did move up the Gondolin episode to Episode 10, and put Fingolfin's big push in Episode 11. I think that as long as we have a strong emphasis on the 'everything is still at peace' nature of things, it won't seem like a moot question as to whether or not they will go to war. So, that can work, and I think Maeglin will be old enough for his episodes. The dates assigned to episodes 2, 6, and 10 were fairly arbitrary; the other dates are much more deliberate.

Suggestions?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
One of @Alcarlótë’s thoughts involved combining the Thurwingwethil at Aglon with the assault on the Stockade, which explains how a battalion of Orcs gets through to Thargelion.
 

Alcarlótë

Member
It occurs to me that it might be helpful to do that with the rest of the main character Men as well. Some of these dates are flexible, but the ones listed here should all work with each other (if I've done this correctly). If anyone has a question about moving a particular date, we can look at the implications and re-evaluate. So, these dates aren't all final, but some of them are 'fixed' (ie, we're not shifting the birth of Húrin).

So, continuing the House of Hador:

Galdor: (do we want to keep his name? we don't want him confused with the elf in Gondolin)
  • born FA 412
  • marries Hareth FA 436 (age 24)
  • birth of son Húrin FA 441 (age 29)
  • birth of son Huor FA 444 (age 32)
  • Dagor Bragollach FA 455 (age 43)
  • death FA 462 (age 50)
Galdor's story will be split between the end of Season 5 and the beginning of Season 7 (and he may appear in the background in Season 6, as well). For this season, his story consists of:
  • growing up in Dor-lómin
  • marrying someone from the House of Haleth at a feast
  • having kids
  • inheriting his father's position as ruler of Dor-lómin at Hador's death
  • fighting in the Dagor Bragollach, and losing his younger brother
His story will continue in later seasons with:
  • interactions with the refugees from Dorthonion
  • loss of his teenage sons
  • mysterious return of said sons
  • death in battle defending his land

Moving along to the House of Haleth...we really only have one significant character here - and that is Haleth!:
  • born FA 345, in Beleriand
  • defends her family's stockade from orcs in 375 (age 30)
  • kills Tevildo and moves into Brethil ??? (date TBD)
  • dies FA 420 (age 75)
Her story will consist of:
  • growing up in a frontier stockade near (but not too near) elf settlements with a father and twin brother (and mother?)
  • establishing her independence and stubbornness from a young age
  • not marrying when she grows up, though her brother marries and has a child
  • assisting in organizing the defense of the stockade, and then, at the death of her father and brother, taking leadership
  • rejecting Caranthir's offer
  • seeking (and being denied) passage through Doriath
  • crossing Nan Dungortheb will all her people
  • seeking to settle in Brethil, and with some negotiations, being granted permission by Thingol
  • kills Tevildo, settles in Brethil
  • meets a young Andreth
  • dies in peace, leadership passing to her brother's child

The House of Bëor is more involved; we have four main characters to keep track of over the entire season.

Bëor:
  • born FA 272
  • meets Finrod c. 320 (age 48)
  • dies FA 365 (age 91)
Bëor's story consists of:
  • leading a small group of people over the mountains into Beleriand (mostly young families; no old people)
  • meets Finrod and decides that elves are the best ever
  • moves his people to Nargothrond at Finrod's invitation
  • leads his people as a vassal of Finrod
  • dies peacefully of old age, leadership passing to the wise woman Adanel
Adanel [very little about her has been discussed in the podcasts so far, simply that she is the bridge between Bëor and Andreth as leader of the House of Bëor, and that she supports Andreth and speaks in favor of her, as well as serving as her mentor. It was suggested that she could have been a child when they moved into Nargothrond, rather than born there herself]
  • born c. FA 330, in Nargothrond?
  • dies c. FA 410, in Dorthonion? (age 80ish?)
Adanel's story
  • a wise woman of the House of Bëor, she collects stories and learns the history of her people
  • she is trusted by Bëor to lead the people after him; she must share his love for the Elves
  • she becomes the teacher of a young Andreth, who is hungry for knowledge and impresses Adanel with her insight
  • she champions Andreth's ideas to make a change for the House of Bëor and leave Nargothrond, passing leadership to her
  • the journey to Ladros is difficult for her, and she does not survive for many years after they arrive?
Andreth
  • born FA 389
  • decides to move her people out of Nargothrond in 410 (age 21)
  • meets Aegnor and falls in love, c. 412 (age 22-25)
  • transfers leadership to Barahir, c. 425 (age 36)
  • flees Dorthonion with the refugees in 455 (age 66)
  • dies c. FA 465 (age 76)
Andreth's story
  • She is a bright young wise-woman who earns the respect of her mentor Adanel and of Finrod
  • She perceives the unrest of the House of Bëor, and seeks a home for them outside Nargothrond
  • She meets an elderly Haleth and decides...not that
  • She moves her people to Ladros in Dorthonion
  • She meets Aegnor, and over time they fall in love
  • She is heartbroken when he leaves her, but speaks of this to no one
  • She perceives that her people no longer require a wise-woman leader, but will need a leader on the battlefield, so passes leadership to her young kinsman Barahir
  • She eventually speaks of her grief over Aegnor with Finrod
  • When war comes, she leads the refugees away from Dorthonion to Brethil/Dor-lómin with Barahir's wife Emeldir
  • She survives the Dagor Bragollach, but will not live until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Barahir:
  • born FA 405 in Nargothrond
  • moves to Ladros in 410 (age 5)
  • becomes leader of the House of Bëor c. 425 (age 20)
  • marries Emeldir c. 430 (age 25)
  • his son Beren is born in 432 (age 27)
  • rescues Finrod in the Dagor Bragollach in 455 (age 50)
  • dies in FA 460 (age 55)
Barahir's story
  • grows up in Ladros, training as a soldier/scout/tracker/outdoorsman type
  • establishes himself as a leader of the new, post-Nargothrond generation
  • Andreth transfers leadership of their people to him (perhaps retains some aspect of the position for herself?)
  • when he heroically rescues Finrod, Finrod gives him his ring
  • stays in Dorthonion after the battle with a small group of surviving rebel fighters
  • unfortunate massacre



I hope this is helpful for trying to put together the season outline. Again, this is a proposed list of dates rather than a finalized version - some of these have a good deal of wiggle room; others are nearly fixed. The timelines of Men for the season were discussed most explicitly in Session 5-9 in July, if anyone would like to review what was said there:


Most of this is guidelines rather than explicit instructions. So, how long does the House of Bëor live in Nargothrond? Not as long as 100 years, but not as short as 50 years. Andreth is born after the death of Bëor. Few people in Nargothrond have memories of the time before they moved in, though the elders could have been children at that time. Etc. So, we don't have to have the meeting of Bëor happen in 320; it could happen in 330.
Wow, that must've taken a lot of work to put together! Impressive, and very helpful =)

As for details that are still kind of open, I'd like Adanel to not go on the journey to Dorthonion and instead give up her life willingly in Nargothrond after the decision to move has been made - giving up your life willingly at the right moment instead of dragging it out despite difficulties is what good and wise Edain do throughout the Ages, and it'd be nice to set that up before the Numenorean story. Also, Andreth is supposed to be the focus of the story and Adanel's presence would kind of of loom over Andreth, during the meeting with Haleth and the settling into Dorthonion, as a past authority figure unless she suddenly becomes totally inactive and Andreth doesn't talk to her anymore, which would be weird.

As for Andreth's end, maybe she could wander back to Nargothrond after the refugees are in place? I feel like it'd be poetic for her to see Finrod one last time, and they could talk about the House of Beor (to conclude its story) and Barahir (as a setup for the beginning of the next season).

About the A, B and C plots for each episodes...I'm happy there's still space to do some stories that are a bit on their own at this time, but keep track of minor characters that will become important later on and elegantly give us setup that will benefit us in the future - rather than everything being so busy now that future seasons are hung out to dry ^^



One of @Alcarlótë’s thoughts involved combining the Thurwingwethil at Aglon with the assault on the Stockade, which explains how a battalion of Orcs gets through to Thargelion.
Thank you for remembering that, I wouldn't have remembered it at the moment :)
 

Alcarlótë

Member
Something that came to my mind about the short "Refugees fleeing from Dorthonion"-plot: Morwen and Rian will be with them, leaving their fathers Baragund and Belegund behind - they will die as parts of Barahir's outlaw band. Baragund and Belegund will of course be at most minor, minor characters this season alongside their father, minor character Bregor. The daughters probably (?) merely appear in the background; one scene I can think of where it'd be nice for them to play an active part would be during the Bragollach, if we show them parting with their fathers. Or maybe they talk to Andreth or Emeldir during the fleeing?

So depending on what we end up planning for the scripts, we might want to cast the fathers and young versions of the daughters, just the fathers, or keep them for later seasons...it's not like we're lacking characters to cast this season :p
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Something that came to my mind about the short "Refugees fleeing from Dorthonion"-plot: Morwen and Rian will be with them, leaving their fathers Baragund and Belegund behind - they will die as parts of Barahir's outlaw band. Baragund and Belegund will of course be at most minor, minor characters this season alongside their father, minor character Bregor. The daughters probably (?) merely appear in the background; one scene I can think of where it'd be nice for them to play an active part would be during the Bragollach, if we show them parting with their fathers. Or maybe they talk to Andreth or Emeldir during the fleeing?

So depending on what we end up planning for the scripts, we might want to cast the fathers and young versions of the daughters, just the fathers, or keep them for later seasons...it's not like we're lacking characters to cast this season :p
Baragund and Belegund's place in the family tree has been debated a bit since their father/grandfather is a relatively minor character.

For casting for a young Morwen, I did consider someone.
 
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Alcarlótë

Member
Baragund and Belegund should at least be around in the background so Barahir's band isn't Barahir+Beren+random people...but yeah, where they come from isn't that important. I don't have any ideas for him, but I don't mind Bregor as a minor character related to Barahir that dies in the Bragollach without taking up much screentime.
 
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