Session 5-15 & 5-16: Season Outline

We didn't get much done in terms of new things, but this session certainly helped to clarify and tidy up some big picture things that should help us with the detailed discussions of the next episode - and it was very fun, too :) I also think we at least mostly convinced Corey that Beor can have a seaside vacation. I like the Tuor being the first man at the sea as mythic moment in the text, but I don't see a way we could convey that information to the viewers in anything but frame exposition or a narration voice-over unless Ulmo says it. And even then, it would put more strain on most viewer's suspension of disbelief than it would come across as meaningful and mythic, in my opinion - and it's not like Tuor's time near the sea lacks mythic qualities anyway.

The only things I'm unclear on is firstly what to do with the suggestion about the prophecy of Huan being public and during a battle (?). Was the battle thing a purpose in itself or was it just an idea why there's bad guys around to hear it in public? It could not be a secret and even public knowledge among the local Elves, and still be discovered by a spy being around.

Secondly, the whole "Finrod's location" business at the end went a bit over my head - why can't Finrod be anywhere we want him to? And why couldn't he take a week or two to come to the Bragollach from Nargothrond and then be cut off in the Fen of Serech? It takes time to besiege Barad Eithel and Minas Tirith, and it will be important to stop the western Noldor from flanking Morgoth's eastern forces or disrupting supply and reinforcement lines between Angband and the fronts. And if Dorthonion is already at least partly fallen at the point Finrod is rescued, it makes sense that Barahir and his army would leave it temporarily. My spontaneous idea for the course of events would be that Finrod lifts the siege of Minas Tirith, drives the orcs back to relieve Barad Eithel or Dorthonion, and then gets caught between an army from the east that was victorious in Dorthonion and an army from the north that gets between him and Minas Tirith - either from the force attacking Hithlum or fresh reinforcements from Angband.

As far as the frame goes, I'd like to start in Minas Tirith - with optional inclusions of Ecthelion and Denethor - to show the viewers where Gandalf is going instead starting with "He's somewhere in the south". But maybe the southern mountain border of Mordor could be an alternative landmark to orient the viewers.
 
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The hosts were reluctant but not directly opposed to taking Bëor to the sea to meet Círdan.
Since this was my idea, I should address it.
I don't think, considering Bëor's storyline, his general situation etc that it would be necessary to have him go to Círdan. Instead, Finrod could go to the coast and meet Círdan himself, the important thing is their talk about Men. Alternatively, Círdan could visit Finrod.
 
We were fighting for your idea! You can't abandon it now :p
Thank you. But I do think that the conversation between Finrod and Círdan is the essential part of that idea. (Yes, the presence of the sea is also important, so Círdan going to Nargothrond would feel less satisfying, but Finrod going to Eglarest on his own would work)
 
We didn't get much done in terms of new things, but this session certainly helped to clarify and tidy up some big picture things that should help us with the detailed discussions of the next episode - and it was very fun, too :) I also think we at least mostly convinced Corey that Beor can have a seaside vacation. I like the Tuor being the first man at the sea as mythic moment in the text, but I don't see a way we could convey that information to the viewers in anything but frame exposition or a narration voice-over unless Ulmo says it. And even then, it would put more strain on most viewer's suspension of disbelief than it would come across as meaningful and mythic, in my opinion - and it's not like Tuor's time near the sea lacks mythic qualities anyway.

The only things I'm unclear on is firstly what to do with the suggestion about the prophecy of Huan being public and during a battle (?). Was the battle thing a purpose in itself or was it just an idea why there's bad guys around to hear it in public? It could not be a secret and even public knowledge among the local Elves, and still be discovered by a spy being around.

Secondly, the whole "Finrod's location" business at the end went a bit over my head - why can't Finrod be anywhere we want him to? And why couldn't he take a week or two to come to the Bragollach from Nargothrond and then be cut off in the Fen of Serech? It takes time to besiege Barad Eithel and Minas Tirith, and it will be important to stop the western Noldor from flanking Morgoth's eastern forces or disrupting supply and reinforcement lines between Angband and the fronts. And if Dorthonion is already at least partly fallen at the point Finrod is rescued, it makes sense that Barahir and his army would leave it temporarily. My spontaneous idea for the course of events would be that Finrod lifts the siege of Minas Tirith, drives the orcs back to relieve Barad Eithel or Dorthonion, and then gets caught between an army from the east that was victorious in Dorthonion and an army from the north that gets between him and Minas Tirith - either from the force attacking Hithlum or fresh reinforcements from Angband.

As far as the frame goes, I'd like to start in Minas Tirith - with optional inclusions of Ecthelion and Denethor - to show the viewers where Gandalf is going instead starting with "He's somewhere in the south". But maybe the southern mountain border of Mordor could be an alternative landmark to orient the viewers.
For the prophecy of Huan, I suggested that Celegorm and Huan serve as an escort to the House of Haleth as they make their way westward, Celegorm mentions Huan's fate, Thurwingwethil hears from on high, she reports back to Sauron, and Sauron makes a communique back to Morgoth, though Morgoth doesn't get started until after Huan kicks Sauron's butt. It got swept under the rug.

The thing with Finrod's location is: does it make sense for him to be there and should the Athrabeth and the Dagor Bragollach be so close together for Andreth to make her closing remarks? Is it not enough time for Andreth to sound older and wiser and let go of some of her bitterness? Why would Finrod be bringing his troops to hear Fingolfin's Big Push if he doesn't support it?
 
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Sauron makes a communique back to Morgoth, though Morgoth doesn’t get started until after Huan kicks Sauron’s butt. It got swept under the rug.
How much time do we think transpires between the fall of Tol-in-Gaurhoth and the theft of the Silmarils? Long enough for Carcaroth to exist, I assume. How long do we imagine that process taking?
 
How much time do we think transpires between the fall of Tol-in-Gaurhoth and the theft of the Silmarils? Long enough for Carcaroth to exist, I assume. How long do we imagine that process taking?
The timeline of the First Age says that Huan beats Sauron in 465 F.A., and that Beren and Lúthien (and Huan) reach Angband in 466 F.A. This could be anywhere from months to a year later, although Carcaroth can exist, while Morgoth could roiding him up once he hears of Sauron's defeat. The shorter amount of time would imply that Morgoth is putting his power into Carcaroth.
 
I always assumed (and the hosts mentioned this as a reason for getting Huan's Doom out now) that Morgoth would start raising Carcharoth personally soon after he learns of Huan's Doom.

It wouldn't make sense to wait considering how big of a deal Huan already is; he has been a formidable and prominent fighter since the Second Battle, and it's time to deal with him now that his weakness has been figured out and Morgoth sees himself close to conquering all of Beleriand. Sauron is kind of seperating from Morgoth (especially after his duel with Fingolfin), doesn't learn about Carcharoth and goes to live in Tol-in-Gaurhoth.
 
While the Hosts seemed to be pretty satisfied with most of the material in the outline, there were a few parts of the proposed Season Outline that need work. We will probably want to give some attention to these areas over the next two weeks so that we can finalize the Season Outline at the beginning of next session.

Silm Film Season 5 Outline - Google Docs spreadsheet

The first is: the scene with Bëor meeting Círdan at the coast in Episode 2. Corey Olsen brought up the same objection that Bre raised on Sunday - "it is said" that Tuor was the first Man to see the Sea (in Unfinished Tales). If we keep that in our story, it will only be in the most passive of ways - that the first time we show a man at the Sea, it is Tuor. The novelty of that scene will have to speak for itself; no one will be there pointing out this 'first'. Is that worth it, to lose the opportunity for Círdan to meet Men now? So, any suggestions for other possible scenes with Círdan this season?

The second is inserting the doom of Huan. Corey envisions this as happening in the aftermath of an awesome action sequence with Huan. An elvish character utters a prophetic foretelling of his doom while Huan is a topic of conversation, and there are villains around to hear it (a la Glorfindel uttering the doom of the Witch-king). The most likely place to insert this is in Episode 4 with the Stockade battle (if Celegorm and Huan accompany Caranthir), or in Episode 5, while Galadriel is brokering peace in East Beleriand and there are conflicts and troubles with Sauron stirring things up and Green Elves and Men not getting along, etc. What we are seeking to avoid is a game of 'telephone' where the news has to be repeated on screen to inform all players - we want the uttering of the prophecy to do the full job of getting the word out (we aren't going to see Morgoth get the news, so we have to give the viewer enough to conclude that Morgoth gets the news). Maglor (or Maedhros), Galadriel, Finrod, and Fingolfin were all mentioned as possible elves to have the prophetic insight.

The third is the dwarf storyline this season. We have not yet discussed what the Dwarves are up to, merely that we know they appear in Aredhel's story. We have room for them in Episode 9. So, what do we want to do with them this season, and how will that tie into the Season 5 storylines? Will we do something with the two kingdoms of Belegost and Nogrod? [The Nauglamir, which was the proposed dwarf storyline for this season, has been pushed back to Season 6 to tie into the story of the silmaril in Doriath.]

The fourth is some timeline issues in the last few episodes of the season. The Hosts confirmed that they wanted both Fingolfin's Big Push and the Athrabeth in Episode 11. That leaves...everything else...for Episode 10. The timeline issue is this: for most of the middle of the season, there is only 3-10 years between episodes. Time is passing, and storylines may take more than a year, but we do not have full human generations pass between episodes for Episodes 4-9. In fact, from the end of Episode 4 until the end of Episode 9, only about 30 years pass. Andreth's romance with Aegnor plays out in the years immediately after they settle in Ladros, so episode 9 will be c. 412-414 FA. That means that in Episodes 10 and 11, we have to bring the story to the Dagor Bragollach in Episode 12 (455 FA). So, at this point, we do need to have about a 20 year time skip inserted into the story somewhere. There are 3 possible places to put it, and we should probably pick one, so we're all happy with how the story is unfolding
  1. Option 1 - The time skip takes place between Episodes 9 and 10. So, Episode 9 ends with the end of Andreth and Aegnor's relationship, and in the next episode, enough time has passed for Barahir to have grown up and for the double wedding to happen (FA 436) and for Maeglin to have grown up enough to be a moody teenager. So, 22-24 years of time skip, leading to the introduction of adult Barahir, Galdor, Gundor, etc. Episode 11 would then take place maybe 9-10 years later (c. 445), focusing on 60-year-old Andreth and a dying Hador, and then leaving 9-10 years after the end of Episode 11 to lead into the Dagor Bragollach.
  2. Option 2 - The time skip takes place during Episode 11. Now, we have Episode 10 happen roughly 10 years after Episode 9, in 425. Maeglin is 40 years old (the youngest possible age for him for the return to Gondolin). Barahir is 19, so old enough to be establishing himself as a warrior and possibly getting married. A little young to be entrusted with the leadership of his people, but possible, especially if Andreth retains some of the responsibilities. Episode 11 will start out 10 years later (FA 436) with the double wedding, establishing the time of peace among the Men, and the 1st Athrabeth conversation will happen in that context - it's impersonal, just about Elves and Men, not about Aegnor. Fingolfin is starting his Big Push, trying to get things in motion. Then, at the mid-point of the episode, we skip ahead 15 years. Andreth ages from 50 to 65. It's now 451. Fingolfin has given up on his Big Push. Finrod and Andreth have another conversation, and this time, it's personal, focused on the lost time she thought she could have had with Aegnor. That leads us directly into the Dagor Bragollach, with the sudden flames leaping up from Angband at the very end of Episode 11.
  3. Option 3 - The time skip takes place between Episodes 11 and 12. Just as in Option 2, Episode 10 happens in FA 425. So, about 11-13 years after Episode 9. And then Episode 11 happens 11 years later in 436, so the double wedding, the Athrabeth, and Fingolfin's Big Push are all happening at this time. There may be some indication of time passing at the very end of the episode. And then, 19 years later, the Sudden Flames. [As a word of caution: Beren is a 4 year old child in FA 436.]
And the fifth is...what is the story of the Dagor Bragollach? Yes, yes, we know it's 'sudden flames, lots of people die, scattered elves'. But if we want to suggest how that plays out on a 'broad strokes' level, especially considering what will be part of Episode 12 and what will be saved for Episode 13, now might be the time to do that. (We can work out the details of who kills whom later.)
 
I think Beor and Finrod visiting Cirdan was the most naturally arising and best scene for this purpose, but if even Haakon's not married to it then I won't be either :D There's certainly other possibilities that work.
 
Where does everyone fall on the spectrum of yea or nay for the Big Push? Fingolfin proposes it, Angrod and Aegnor support it, Maedhros does not support it because there are not enough combatants (plus if there’s a Glaurung in the room, introduce it), Curufin might have his own plans (hint: Luthien), there was an argument that Finrod would not support it because of his attachment to Men and not wanting to risk their lives, but what about everyone else?
 
Well I accept the argument that Tuor should be the first Man to see the sea. :) I still think Finrod could visit Círdan and talk about Men without bringing one along.
 
I think Beor and Finrod visiting Cirdan was the most naturally arising and best scene for this purpose, but if even Haakon's not married to it then I won't be either :D There's certainly other possibilities that work.
Oh my last post was an answer to this post, not the last before mine.

I don’t want to sound confused, I can see Círdan getting visits from Finrod as well as from Fingolfin.
 
Right, I think two scenes with Círdan would be fine, especially if the latter one is so late in the season. If Fingolfin and Círdan interact in episode 11, it will be very brief, and might be a case of Círdan coming to Fingolfin. Maybe Fingolfin tries to hold a 'Council of Elrond' with many voices, so Círdan is there, but says how non-committal the Sindar of Doriath would be. Or something like that.


As for the earlier scene, I think we will definitely keep Finrod meeting Círdan at the Sea. We then have some options for how to handle Bëor.
  • Finrod invites Bëor, and Bëor agrees to come with him. Bëor is enthusiastic about seeing the western edge of the world, but when he sees the sea, he expresses how glad he is to have found Nargothrond. Círdan gets to see Men, not just hear Finrod's report of Men.
  • Finrod invites him on this trip, but he turns down the invitation because he is perfectly happy in Nargothrond - tell me all about it when you get back!
  • Finrod invites him on this trip (late in Episode 2), and Bëor turns him down because he is now quite elderly, and travel would be an Ordeal.

Speaking of the "Council of Fingolfin", here's the run-down:
  • Aegnor and Angrod - on board
  • Fingon - probably on board
  • Maedhros and the Fëanoreans - *not* on board; don't have the numbers, and forswearing the Oath is a non-starter
  • Men of Dor-lómin - Hador is dying, but Galdor and Gundor are likely on board
  • Men of Brethil - No thank you
  • Men of Ladros - On board; they will support Angrod and Aegnor
  • Orodreth - Manning Minas Tirith is more important than attacking Angband
  • Finrod - my purpose from Ulmo was to create a safe haven for the Noldor in Nargothrond. I'm not marching to war right now.
  • Turgon - who knows where he is?
  • Aredhel - dead
  • Thingol - Doriath is not marching out to war, no matter how many times Angrod asks.
  • Dwarves - not interested
 
If we go that route, then we will need to think up a scene of Finrod and Bëor doing something together earlier in the episode - whether another trip, or something in Nargothrond.
 
Considering the larger Nargothrond plot, whatever they do should probably either set up the problematic differences of Elves and Men or show why those aren't a big issue for the first decades in Nargothrond. Who cares what they're actually doing, right? :D
Agreed! Could it involve a decision to not train for combat? Bëor finds weapons tiresome and now pointless, and Finrod happily agrees? Something like that?
 
Inserting the doom of Huan. Corey envisions this as happening in the aftermath of an awesome action sequence with Huan. An elvish character utters a prophetic foretelling of his doom while Huan is a topic of conversation, and there are villains around to hear it (a la Glorfindel uttering the doom of the Witch-king). The most likely place to insert this is in Episode 4 with the Stockade battle (if Celegorm and Huan accompany Caranthir), or in Episode 5, while Galadriel is brokering peace in East Beleriand and there are conflicts and troubles with Sauron stirring things up and Green Elves and Men not getting along, etc. What we are seeking to avoid is a game of 'telephone' where the news has to be repeated on screen to inform all players - we want the uttering of the prophecy to do the full job of getting the word out (we aren't going to see Morgoth get the news, so we have to give the viewer enough to conclude that Morgoth gets the news). Maglor (or Maedhros), Galadriel, Finrod, and Fingolfin were all mentioned as possible elves to have the prophetic insight.


I have an unusual suggestion of how to do this. We showcased Huan in the Season 4 finale, and Celegorm and Fingon have many opportunities to talk with one another. Even more than that, there is at least one scene where Glaurung is clearly listening to their conversation unawares! I don't think we're going to find a better opportunity to showcase the prophecy than that in Season 5. So, what would you think about adding the Prophecy of Huan's fate to the end of this scene? We will need to transition from the 'fight' and unkind words between Celegorm and Fingon to Fingon sharing his kind(?) words about Huan not being defeated by this monster they are facing, but living to meet the greatest wolf ever born.

EXT. ERED WETHRIN – DAY
CELEGORM, HUAN, the FËANORIAN SOLDIERS, FINGON, and his ARCHERS continue following the trail. They pass a place where the trail cuts very close to the edge of a gorge with some woods on the other side of it. Fingon spurs his horse and rides up beside Celegorm. They ride beside each other in silence for a moment before Fingon speaks.

FINGON: Have you any idea how fast this beast doth travel?

CELEGORM: Faster than the soldiers King Fingolfin promised would be taking their turn at Fort Soronúmë.

There is a long pause.

FINGON: Celegorm, I am deeply sorry we were not there to fight alongside your men. We will never let this happen again.

CELEGORM: 'Never again' cannot return to life the slain.

(Beat. Celegorm draws his horse a little ahead so he does not have to look at Fingon.)

Though it turned out better that ye were late. Had ye been there on time, ye likely would only have been slain as well.

Fingon takes this as an insult to his men’s fighting ability. He spurs his horse again, drawing back alongside Celegorm.

FINGON: Then let us make up for it by finding and slaying this beast together.

The camera shows the Elves riding by from a point of view within the woods across the gorge. Glowing red eyes shine out of the darkness behind some trees.


Thoughts?
 
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