Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I would love if he could meet Emeldir in Brethil but not sure we’d have time
Although I’ve lost track of her in SilmFilm terms. Need to reread season 5 and see if it still makes sense for her to be there
Session 6-01: Big Picture Questions
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
I would love if he could meet Emeldir in Brethil but not sure we’d have time
Although I’ve lost track of her in SilmFilm terms. Need to reread season 5 and see if it still makes sense for her to be there
Odola
Well-Known Member
I had no made myself clear, it seems that Luthien is the first female being Beren meets for same time, maybe the first in his adulthood. As such him chasing her is understandable in his desperation to claim the female element he was lacking in his life for some time. His need is more primal than even the romantic/erotic one, it is the drive for live/normalcy/sanity itself. Luthien becomes the Female for him, he does not choose her from among other women as a person suitable for him, he chases what he lacks regardless of suitability - imho.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Our Beren is an adult during the Dagor Bragollach, so Luthien's definitely not the first girl he's met as an adult.
Odola
Well-Known Member
How old has he been at the separation from his people's women in this version?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Oh it is both still played today... just a bit different.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
20-25 years old, I think.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
There are two parties of members of the House of Beör who are fleeing Ladros: one led by Emeldir which flees to Brethil; the other includes Morwen (12-13 years old) and Rian (5 years old), which flees to Dor-Lomin. I can't really imagine Beren deciding to just pop in on his mother and the story not telling us.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I’m confused by what you mean by the story not telling us? Surely we haven’t decided the story yet? Oh, do you mean in like, season 5 terms it hasn’t been set up to happen.
I actually think having Luthien meet Emeldir while on the way to rescue Beren would be even better. And give some shared screen time between significant women.
If anything Odola, the idea of Beren pursuing Luthien, not for any personal qualities but simply because she’s the first woman he’s seen in ages is a far more problematic story. Might be believable for a certain type of person but not something I want to associate with a heroic character.
Odola
Well-Known Member
It is problematic for the modern reader, I do completely agree. But this is a mythic story and therein it is fine. This is the priority we have to decide. How far we are ready to sacifice the myth on the altar of modernity?
Odola
Well-Known Member
Still young enough not to having thought seriously about women himself yet, especially in a loomimg war context.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Why would Luthien want to delay in rescuing Beren? She gets intercepted by Celegorm and Curufin on the borders of Doriath and taken to Nargothrond, Huan frees her. From there, they're going with all available speed to Tol-en-Gaurhoth.
Odola
Well-Known Member
I do see Rob's point. Having the blessing and acceptance of the future mother-in-law is important. But this would diminish the "scandalousness" of the union. As such I am against it. ;-)
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
When Beren arives at Doriath he is seriously starved, turned half savage and out of his mind... then he sees Luthien and what happens is fairy magic. You have to find ways to make this understandable and clear to a viewer. They meet more than one time in the woods and they change and their attitude to each other changes.That is very interesting character developement to me. Or it could be if done right.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I think the fact that it will be (theoretically) watched by a modern audience is important. I think things can be grand by they still need to be emotionally grounded. 'Mythic' can't be a stand in for 'untethered'. We can do both but I think the human relational connection is what will resonate with audiences.
I also don't know that Emeldir needs to be giving blessing. I just think it could be a window into another human culture. She could be seeking aid in her quest. It doesn't have to be for respite - she could be seeking information or back-up. As I say, I don't think there will be time to explore it in a single season telling anyway.
I think one of the most important questions is how easy will the relationship be between Beren and Luthien. Will it be a 'love and first sight and all is well' type of romance. Or will we lean into the fact that both probably have some baggage surrounding the other's race and a huge gulf of perspective. And, you know, Beren is probably suffering immense trauma. What unites them can also be how they overcome these things. Luthien is obviously a healer and I think would want to 'heal' her kingdom (there's already been plenty of talk about Thingol's specific kind or reign in contrast to Finrod). Beren is obviously after vengence. So I can see how they might align in wanting to hold back darkness and restore Beleriand. BUT the juiciness comes from where they clash in how to do this and where their own goals are at odds. The audience would root for them to overcome these divisions and thrive as legendary lover heroes.
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I'm really gonna have to control myself during season 6 to not every 5 minutes mention the Beren&Luthien rockopera(s), but this scene from Finrod the rock opera (basically B&L, but Finrod is kinda the protagonist) is really what i imagine whenever i read that Beren & Luthien meeting, just these two worlds of war and death and grief on one side and enclosed serenity, magic and beauty on the other meeting and clashing but also harmonising and gravitating towards one another.
(there are english subtitles)
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Having been a young man before, I assure you it is plenty old enough to have seriously thought about women.
Odola
Well-Known Member
That's reassuring, because I would find the attitude of most 20-25 year men towards women quite often quite "thoughtless". ;-)
But while I do get the point of a relationship development this is imho explicitly not what the story is about. B&L is an amost cliche romantic "sove as some strange suprarational semi-divine nature force" that needs no words and just "happens" We know that such an infatuation seldom ends well and its sustainability is little, and the romantics knew it too, but they preferred to imagine such an infatuation to be "even-lasting if "true"". Luthien being non-human and magical creature makes it actually possible for Beren no living long enough to "fall out of love"= his fascination with her. As for her destination with him - I would assume the intesiviity and urgency of a human man's need and passion might impress. We know elvish men can wait for centuries for reasons we would consider trifle. There seems to bevlittle urgency in their passion. This might make a mortal man attractive for an elleth. And we know ellith do find mortal men attractive. Over-psychologisation and over-rationalisation would not serve this specific romance story imho.
I've always read the interaction when he's chasing her as having subtle and not-so-subtle flirting on the behalf of Luthien (maybe not the BoLT one, if that's where she runs away scared. Too lazy to check rn). Giving Luthien agency is the important thing here. If she's leading him on, deliberately, and the audience can see she's clearly into it, then "rough man from the woods starved of female company chasing beautiful single girl" is not hopefully not the first thing that pops into people's minds. Having Beren happy to see an eruhin, any eruhin, not just a pretty woman, would tone down the stalker-ness of it all. And she could challenge him in some way that makes him stop and think, not sure what atm.
Also, speaking personally, my wife was, 20 years ago as a teenager, very much thinking Aragorn in Jackson's FotR better-looking than Legolas (and I'm no Legolas ;-). Luthien's been surrounded by pretty and/or superlative Elf dudes her whole life (Saeros, anyone? We are playing him as a dandy and/or a fop, iirc), it's a plausible trope to have her prefer something different. I suppose the whole Daeron dynamic is relevant here, but I can't recall how their relationship was framed in the past. "Just good friends"? "Like a brother/sister"? Or was he a spurned suitor?
On a different note, pixie cut Luthien after the treehouse scene? Thoughts?
Also, speaking personally, my wife was, 20 years ago as a teenager, very much thinking Aragorn in Jackson's FotR better-looking than Legolas (and I'm no Legolas ;-). Luthien's been surrounded by pretty and/or superlative Elf dudes her whole life (Saeros, anyone? We are playing him as a dandy and/or a fop, iirc), it's a plausible trope to have her prefer something different. I suppose the whole Daeron dynamic is relevant here, but I can't recall how their relationship was framed in the past. "Just good friends"? "Like a brother/sister"? Or was he a spurned suitor?
On a different note, pixie cut Luthien after the treehouse scene? Thoughts?
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I find it really hard to approach Beren and Luthien with the idea that there should be zero character development. Yes, it’s not something Tolkien was interested but ad Corey pointed out, at this point even he is moving out of the plot summary stage into more narrative story telling. And regardless of what Tolkien did, a good story needs to come first. That had to centre on character arcs. Plot is what facilitates that. I just can’t see how telling the Beren and Luthien story and having there relationship not develop would be anything less than boring. Surely that is the core of the season? Am I alone in that.
I do agree the urgent passion of a mortal would be enticing. If we choose to focus on his desire for revenge, even his fire for that might be alluring in some ways. Not want he wants per se, but how much he wants it. Can reflect his love for her. But of course, she’s grown up in Thingol’s court and has been surrounded by a mistrust snd literally been separated from mortals. He also has a family pact with an elf king to come when his father was in need. Then his father and his clan were killed and no elf came to their aid. I think he’d have qualms about elves. Maybe they act to slowly. He probably sees Luthien as not understanding what’s really going on out there in the wild world. She probably thinks his scope of vision is too narrow. Plus, he’s recently seen war and massacre and I don’t know how easily he will express his own emotions beyond binary love and hate. I think they need to compliment the other and blossom as they grow. You really want the season to begin with them unable or unwilling to do -something- and by the climactic finale you see them able to do -that thing- and it be obvious the other has helped them get to that place.
Odola
Well-Known Member
If you want to go deeper into what do Luthien and mortals have in common it is the sense of urgency that elves generally lack. Elves are about enhancement of what is, humans have the capacity to move beyond that - for good or ill. Luthien is half-Ainur - she might find her dormant Ainur side woken by the confrontation with someone restless to the core - even if in great need for said rest - but deeply discontent with how things are - with the human longing for something "completely new" - which is foreign to most elves.
It is not that elves lack passion or fire, they do not, if anything their fire of anger or revenge is more fervent, it goes deeper and lasts far longer. But it has less urgency for sure, they master it better, they are less overwhelmed by it. And seeing a mortal man overwhelmed by his passion for oneself is quite impressive for the object of such admiration, even if is generally of short duration.
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