Session 6-01: Big Picture Questions

If you want to go deeper into what do Luthien and mortals have in common it is the sense of urgency that elves generally lack. Elves are about enhancement of what is, humans have the capacity to move beyond that - for good or ill. Luthien is half-Ainur - she might find her dormant Ainur side woken by the confrontation with someone restless to the core - even if in great need for said rest - but deeply discontent with how things are - with the human longing for something "completely new" - which is foreign to most elves.

It is not that elves lack passion or fire, they do not, if anything their fire of anger or revenge is more ferment, it goes deeper and lasts far longer. But it has less urgency for sure, they master it better, they are less overwhelmed by it. And seeing a mortal man overwhelmed by his passion for oneself is quite impressive for the object of such admiration, even if is generally of short duration.

Totally agree. I also think there’s some interactions to be had between her snd her mother. After all, her mother ‘marries beneath her’ as it were, to another race of being. She’d have real unique insight.

And I think the significance of a woman wanting to see change and having a literally powerful voice, powerful enough to undo oppressive strongholds, is a big part of her character. As is healing. One and the same thing.

I think of Beren at the start of the story as wanting to take our dark forces for a very personal quest for vengeance. Luthien could remind him there are bigger pieces at work and that its not enough to undo darkness, you need to replace it with healing. And I from him I think she could finally gain that impetus to leave Menegroth and be a more active player in a world where time is short, where life can be lost in the blink of an eye
 
Totally agree. I also think there’s some interactions to be had between her snd her mother. After all, her mother ‘marries beneath her’ as it were, to another race of being. She’d have real unique insight.
Luthien has pobably grew up with songs and stories about her parents meeting and may not be not uninfluenced by it in her own romantic expectations - similarly to how Arwen is infuenced in hers by Luthien's own story.

So you would see Beren as being for Luthien as a unwitting ambassador of the "big world out there in need to be saved" ? A catalyst for some surpressed impulses she aleady had? A pretext for a more active role? A sign that "now is the time" to get involved?
 
Luthien has pobably grew up with songs and stories about her parents meeting and may not be not uninfluenced by it in her own romantic expectations - similarly to how Arwen is infuenced in hers by Luthien's own story.

So you would see Beren as being for Luthien as a unwitting ambassador of the "big world out there in need to be saved" ? A catalyst for some surpressed impulses she aleady had? A pretext for a more active role? A sign that "now is the time" to get involved?

I think that’s one option. It’s where I see the easiest ‘call to action’ for Luthien. But I would want to make sure those seeds are planted. I don’t want the trope of her bring a naive princess who’s never seen the real world. She needs to be trying to change things and Beren might be that final push IMO
 
I think that’s one option. It’s where I see the easiest ‘call to action’ for Luthien. But I would want to make sure those seeds are planted. I don’t want the trope of her bring a naive princess who’s never seen the real world. She needs to be trying to change things and Beren might be that final push IMO

If Luthien already considered in previous seasons being a "warrior princess" and then decided against because something else was needed more by her people at that moment, this already implies the potential still being there, even if not acted upon.

I would advice keeping the psychology simple, just complex enough to be believable. An archetype is being relatable by being an archetype, not by making it the nextdoor neightbour. This is exactly what TLOTR movie got wrong with Aragorn and his self-doubt - imho it was completely unneeded. They make the characted more muddled and less clear and as such less relatable actually.

Beren and Luthien have more than enough outward obstacles to fight against together to get close, their story imho does not need any inward ones to overcome in addition. Keep their romance pure, simple and uncomplicated - do not overload it with psychology - the (action) story is complicated enough for that to be possible. His motive - apart from her being a very beautiful female - is his need for healing, hers - apart from him being completely enchanted by her ("cute") - is her considering him her "sign of fate/call to action". I think anything more will only distract from the story and not enchance it.
 
I think if Luthien's arc is from inactivity in the real world to "I need to help change the world" the end result is... disappointing. They basically steal a Silmaril and retire to Florida. I know that their quest eventually inspires the Union Of Maedhros to take action, but that's not really a direct result of some "change the world" directive. Yes, their great-grandchild is eventually Earendil, but again, it's basically a direct parallel to Cory's disappointment with the whole Morgoth-afraid-of-Turgon thing.

Other options for Luthien could be a need to grow up and get out of her parents' shadows or even or escaping an overprotective father.
 
I think if Luthien's arc is from inactivity in the real world to "I need to help change the world" the end result is... disappointing. They basically steal a Silmaril and retire to Florida. I know that their quest eventually inspires the Union Of Maedhros to take action, but that's not really a direct result of some "change the world" directive. Yes, their great-grandchild is eventually Earendil, but again, it's basically a direct parallel to Cory's disappointment with the whole Morgoth-afraid-of-Turgon thing.

Other options for Luthien could be a need to grow up and get out of her parents' shadows or even or escaping an overprotective father.

They do a lot - she confronts both Sauron and Morgoth - on the way and then they die. The retirement is after they die. That is fine. You cannot ask for much activity after you have died.
 
If Luthien already considered in previous seasons being a "warrior princess" and then decided against because something else was needed more by her people at that moment, this already implies the potential still being there, even if not acted upon.

I would advice keeping the psychology simple, just complex enough to be believable. An archetype is being relatable by being an archetype, not by making it the nextdoor neightbour. This is exactly what TLOTR movie got wrong with Aragorn and his self-doubt - imho it was completely unneeded. They make the characted more muddled and less clear and as such less relatable actually.

Beren and Luthien have more than enough outward obstacles to fight against together to get close, their story imho does not need any inward ones to overcome in addition. Keep their romance pure, simple and uncomplicated - do not overload it with psychology - the (action) story is complicated enough for that to be possible. His motive - apart from her being a very beautiful female - is his need for healing, hers - apart from him being completely enchanted by her ("cute") - is her considering him her "sign of fate/call to action". I think anything more will only distract from the story and not enchance it.

Outward obstacles aren’t the story though. Story is people. Outward obstacles are plot elements but if you have no inward obstacles you just don’t have a storyline. It’s totally fine if you don’t want them to have a complicated relationship. They could get each other from the start (though I find it a tad unbelievable and doesn’t really speak to the idea of the remarkable nature of their coming together. If they aren’t from different worlds, their union isn’t remarkable). But sure, you can have their love be statically certain ala Romeo and Juliet. But they need their own journeys that are fulfilled by uniting.

I personally much prefer movie Aragorn
 
They do a lot - she confronts both Sauron and Morgoth - on the way and then they die. The retirement is after they die. That is fine. You cannot ask for much activity after you have died.
Well, yes. I know the "stole a Silmaril and retired to Florida" was an oversimplification, but I still hold that it's not far from the truth. I'm not downplaying all they went through and accomplished, but I believe that we're fooling ourselves if we think they are doing it for some "greater good" and not for each other. The biggest thing we could claim they did for the greater good was overthrowing Sauron, but the truth is Luthien did that to save Beren, not for some greater good. Confronting Morgoth and stealing the Silmaril accomplished what? It allowed them to be together, per the quest.

Maybe if we want to lean into that role for her, we could have them, after returning from Mandos, travelling around actually inspiring the people of Middle-earth before heading to Ossiriand? Outside of that, most of their accomplishments can't really be considered selfless.
 
Well, yes. I know the "stole a Silmaril and retired to Florida" was an oversimplification, but I still hold that it's not far from the truth. I'm not downplaying all they went through and accomplished, but I believe that we're fooling ourselves if we think they are doing it for some "greater good" and not for each other. The biggest thing we could claim they did for the greater good was overthrowing Sauron, but the truth is Luthien did that to save Beren, not for some greater good. Confronting Morgoth and stealing the Silmaril accomplished what? It allowed them to be together, per the quest.

Maybe if we want to lean into that role for her, we could have them, after returning from Mandos, travelling around actually inspiring the people of Middle-earth before heading to Ossiriand? Outside of that, most of their accomplishments can't really be considered selfless.

I think you need to bake that into the story. I think Beren getting the silmaril to win the hand of someone we are setting up to be a strong protagonist in her own right could be…tricky. I think we could set it up so that the plan to steal a silmaril from Morgoth is something they between them have agreed is a necessity for done greater purpose. Thus we help our season connect to the wider world and have later season implications
 
Well, yes. I know the "stole a Silmaril and retired to Florida" was an oversimplification, but I still hold that it's not far from the truth. I'm not downplaying all they went through and accomplished, but I believe that we're fooling ourselves if we think they are doing it for some "greater good" and not for each other. The biggest thing we could claim they did for the greater good was overthrowing Sauron, but the truth is Luthien did that to save Beren, not for some greater good. Confronting Morgoth and stealing the Silmaril accomplished what? It allowed them to be together, per the quest.

Maybe if we want to lean into that role for her, we could have them, after returning from Mandos, travelling around actually inspiring the people of Middle-earth before heading to Ossiriand? Outside of that, most of their accomplishments can't really be considered selfless.

Why does it need to be selfless? She gets a reason to use her potential. Both villians are substantially weakened and demoralised. B&L recover some "divine light" from Hell itself. Hero's deeds are hero's deeds, most heros in most stories have agendas and are far from selfless. That does not dimish their achievements.

And the point of their retirement is having Dior - because Luthien was promised her bloodline will not die out - so she has to start one in the first place - no other real point in it - they have aleady done their stuff before they have died the 1st time.
 
Why does it need to be selfless? She gets a reason to use her potential. Both villians are substantially weakened and demoralised. B&L recover some "divine light" from Hell itself. Hero's deeds are hero's deeds, most heros in most stories have agendas and are far from selfless. That does not dimish their achievements.

And the point of their retirement is having Dior - because Luthien was promised her bloodline will not die out - so she has to start one in the first place - no other real point in it - they have aleady done their stuff before they have died the 1st time.

The idea of stealing light being equivalent to recovering hope in this time when we know Sauron is secretly growing in darkness I think could be mirrored beautifully.

Also, am I the only person who loved Corey’s joking suggestion of ending a the series with Beren’s death. So bittersweet. Perhaps not the finale episode but certainly a late episode I think. Maybe penultimate? Then have this amazing finale of Luthien travelling to the halls of Mandos and their return together, Beren having found healing and Luthien having being this epic hero, transcending the deeds of both her parents.
 
I find it really hard to approach Beren and Luthien with the idea that there should be zero character development. ... I just can’t see how telling the Beren and Luthien story and having there relationship not develop would be anything less than boring. Surely that is the core of the season? Am I alone in that.

No? Obviously the entire point of this season is to tell their stories, and they will have character arcs? Their stories go from meeting to marriage to death to afterlife (not necessarily in that order), so there is some alteration in how they interact with one another over time! (Even if much of the story is 'Lúthien saves Beren again'). They each have starting points prior to this season, so Lúthien at least has an established character - the audience already knows what she is passionate about, and what type of stance she is likely to take on questions. Her 'childlike' nature has been presented in a way that is meant to avoid accusations of naivety. Beren is a fairly new character, but he is not being introduced in Season 6. We did show scenes of young Beren with his mother. We saw him fighting beside his father Barahir in the Dagor Bragollach, so seeing him with the outlaws when Season 6 opens is a continuation of that story. So, a fierce sense of family loyalty and defending his people and his land is his starting point. He then...loses that. So he goes from having a tight-knit community to being utterly alone, and then meets Lúthien.

Beren is born in FA 432. So, he is a young man of 23 years of age during the battle. He will be meeting Lúthien within about 5 years of the battle (depending on how closely we keep to the timelines of the betrayal of Barahir's band and how long we leave Beren in Dorthonion alone). So, he's roughly 28 when he meets her, and it's been roughly 5 years since he has seen the rest of his people (including the women).

I've always read the interaction when he's chasing her as having subtle and not-so-subtle flirting on the behalf of Luthien (maybe not the BoLT one, if that's where she runs away scared. Too lazy to check rn). Giving Luthien agency is the important thing here. If she's leading him on, deliberately, and the audience can see she's clearly into it, then "rough man from the woods starved of female company chasing beautiful single girl" is not hopefully not the first thing that pops into people's minds. Having Beren happy to see an eruhin, any eruhin, not just a pretty woman, would tone down the stalker-ness of it all. And she could challenge him in some way that makes him stop and think, not sure what atm.

Yes, exactly! I wouldn't want to go so far in the other direction that she is then viewed as an enticing temptress, but the general idea that she is a participant is important to the optics. And I also think this is strongly implied by Tolkien in the dialogue he gives her - she challenges Beren to dance with her, teasing him about not being fleet enough to catch her. I don't think it will be too difficult to convince the audience that Lúthien has allowed herself to be caught, and is pleased with that development. I don't think the story is creepy the way Tolkien wrote it - but I think we have to be very careful not to MAKE it creepy. Because, without some interjection of playfulness and back-and-forth, it could come across as very one-sided.

I like the idea of her healing him for compassionate reasons as part of this initial interaction as well.

I suppose the whole Daeron dynamic is relevant here, but I can't recall how their relationship was framed in the past. "Just good friends"? "Like a brother/sister"? Or was he a spurned suitor?
Lúthien and Daeron are good friends, and everyone assumes that someday they will get married. Apparently, including Daeron, though he was not a suitor so was not spurned.
 
Last edited:
The idea of stealing light being equivalent to recovering hope in this time when we know Sauron is secretly growing in darkness I think could be mirrored beautifully.

Also, am I the only person who loved Corey’s joking suggestion of ending a the series with Beren’s death. So bittersweet. Perhaps not the finale episode but certainly a late episode I think. Maybe penultimate? Then have this amazing finale of Luthien travelling to the halls of Mandos and their return together, Beren having found healing and Luthien having being this epic hero, transcending the deeds of both her parents.

Sounds nice.
But I would refrain from them having the idea of going after the Silmarill themselves. As this would make them directly involved in the Oath of Feanor - and this is imho best reserved Thingol himself alone.
Let them plan some future outside of Melian's Girdle together - maybe try to regather and rebuild the House of Beor first and Luthien being an equivalent of Melian as the queen of the humans - teaching them how to heal and recover and then resist or even attack later.
 
As a heads up, Corey Olsen would like to discuss the other storylines of the season first, and then tackle Beren and Lúthien after.

I do think that meaning of the quest of the silmaril is something we will have to discuss in this pre-season, yes! Because they are stealing light, and they do conquer Morgoth (temporarily), but they did not name or choose the quest themselves. They simply wanted to get married, and would have lived in the woods together happily. It was Thingol's idea to request world-changing events. Once they accept the quest, they can discuss with one another what it would mean to fulfill it, though.
 
Why does it need to be selfless? She gets a reason to use her potential. Both villians are substantially weakened and demoralised. B&L recover some "divine light" from Hell itself. Hero's deeds are hero's deeds, most heros in most stories have agendas and are far from selfless. That does not dimish their achievements.

And the point of their retirement is having Dior - because Luthien was promised her bloodline will not die out - so she has to start one in the first place - no other real point in it - they have aleady done their stuff before they have died the 1st time.
I'm not saying it should be selfless. I'm basing that on someone else's comment earlier that suggested her arc being realizing she needs to help "save the world" but she literally does nothing to do that. Like I said, I'm not taking anything away from their story, just saying that a "save the world" arc for Luthien would end in disappointment. She doesn't do anything to attempt saving the world.
I think you need to bake that into the story. I think Beren getting the silmaril to win the hand of someone we are setting up to be a strong protagonist in her own right could be…tricky. I think we could set it up so that the plan to steal a silmaril from Morgoth is something they between them have agreed is a necessity for done greater purpose. Thus we help our season connect to the wider world and have later season implications
I can get behind that. I could see a scene where after they reunite they discuss this. Luthien after being captured and taken to Nargothrond realizes the people of Beleriand need to be united, rather than the infighting. They say that their winning a Silmaril (maybe Beren even hints that stealing more would help their cause;foreshadowing his second attempt) could show the people that "Morgoth is not unassailable."
The idea of stealing light being equivalent to recovering hope in this time when we know Sauron is secretly growing in darkness I think could be mirrored beautifully.

Also, am I the only person who loved Corey’s joking suggestion of ending a the series with Beren’s death. So bittersweet. Perhaps not the finale episode but certainly a late episode I think. Maybe penultimate? Then have this amazing finale of Luthien travelling to the halls of Mandos and their return together, Beren having found healing and Luthien having being this epic hero, transcending the deeds of both her parents.
Yeah, ending the second episode with his/their death(s) would be a good idea, IMO. From their deaths to their returns is actually like a 2 year gap I believe, so we could get quite a bit of stuff after their deaths and before their return in the finale. Spreading the word of their deeds, setting stuff up for the next season, etc.

As a heads up, Corey Olsen would like to discuss the other storylines of the season first, and then tackle Beren and Lúthien after.

On that note, what are we doing with Galadriel and Celeborn? Galadriel said they went over the mountains before the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin, and those events are only a few seasons off (though it could be 5 years away in our time.) Maybe we can get them out of Ossiriand by the end of the season, so Ossiriand doesn't feel too crowded with two power couples there at once?
 
Sorry yes, that’s what I meant. 100% needs to be Thingol. But if say Beren is working his way up the chain to avenge his father (Gorgonzola, Sauron, Morgoth) it makes sense he has other motives for going. Maybe becoming more ultruistic as he spends time with Luthien, stopping Morgoth for grander reasons. So it makes sense Luthien would understand his reason to go, beyond trying to get a bride price. And we’ve already set up that she might at first stay home to help in other ways. Until she hears of what’s happened to him
 
As a heads up, Corey Olsen would like to discuss the other storylines of the season first, and then tackle Beren and Lúthien after.
Well, as of the Dagor Bragollach and the taking of Tol Sirion, we have refugees coming from two areas: Ladros and Tol Sirion. My idea would be to have Celegorm and Curufin intercept Orcs pursuing the refugees from Tol Sirion who are fleeing towards Nargothrond, which puts Orodreth in their debt (and makes them hard to jostle until word comes of Finrod Felagund's demise).

For the Taking of Tol Sirion, @Haakon and I have discussed placing Annael's unwitting treachery as part of the Taking of Tol Sirion, leading to his exile. I suggested during the podcast that Annael spread false information about attacking Barad Eithel, which prevents Fingon from saving Tol Sirion, but another option would be to have Annael kill sentries that could have warned of Sauron's advance.

For the demise of Thurwingwethil, how about Beren killing Thurwingwethil during his four years alone in Dorthonion, then sending her cloak back to Sauron (which explains why Sauron has it for Luthien to use? Then Sauron forces Beren to flee from Dorthonion to Doriath.
 
Sorry yes, that’s what I meant. 100% needs to be Thingol. But if say Beren is working his way up the chain to avenge his father (Gorgonzola, Sauron, Morgoth) it makes sense he has other motives for going. Maybe becoming more ultruistic as he spends time with Luthien, stopping Morgoth for grander reasons. So it makes sense Luthien would understand his reason to go, beyond trying to get a bride price. And we’ve already set up that she might at first stay home to help in other ways. Until she hears of what’s happened to him
I had no idea that Beren was going up against cheese.
 
Back
Top