Session 6-02: The Villain Storylines

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The next session of the Silm Film Project will be held on Thursday December 16th at 10 PM Eastern Time (or, rather, about 15-20 minutes after that, once Corey Olsen has everything set up for broadcasting).

Our main topic will be the storyline for Sauron this season. Inevitably, this will consider some anticipation of future storylines for him, but what is his actual plan to conquer Beleriand that Lúthien thwarts? Why is he now in command of orc armies, when he was sidelined from that up until the Dagor Bragollach? How does he take Minas Tirith? (What role does Annael play?)

Obviously we know his role in the story from the hero's perspective:
In Dorthonion, he tricks and kills Gorlim, he sends the orcs who kill Barahir's band, and he puts the price on Beren's head.
He captures the fortress of Minas Tirith, turning Tol Sirion into Tol-in-Gaurhoth. He captures and/or kills elves who stray too close.
He has a song duel with Finrod, and then kills Finrod and all of his followers.
He is defeated by Lúthien and Huan.
He flees to parts unknown.

But we will want this to all be part of a plan to conquer Doriath and Nargothrond, right? Securing Morgoth's control over Beleriand. And we will want to know where he flees to at the end.

There are a lot of villains who will potentially meet their ends this season:
Draugluin and Carcharoth will both be killed by Huan. Beren will kill Gorgul the Butcher. Thuringwethil will meet her end how??? And do we want to include the part where Boldog is killed by Thingol?

And while Morgoth and Glaurung certainly survive and are not defeated, we do have to figure out what they're up to. Why does Glaurung abandon his hoard at Keep Helevorn and return to Angband?

So, a lot to think about!
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
For the demise of Thurwingwethil, how about Beren killing Thurwingwethil during his four years alone in Dorthonion, then sending her cloak back to Sauron (which explains why Sauron has it for Luthien to use? Then Sauron forces Beren to flee from Dorthonion to Doriath.
Could we have luthien take out Thuringwethil? Almost planted the seeds that the shouldn’t be taken lightly by the dark forces. And then she would just have the pelt/cloak. Just tightens things up a little more.

The one thing I’m really worried about, as Nicholas expressed, is the repetition of werewolf at adversaries. I really liked the idea of Carcharoth being a reaction to Draugluin’s defeat snd I love the seeding of him as a puppy and the rumour of a new guardian.

We still have Draugluin, then wolf Sauron then Carcharoth though. It feels repetitive if it’s just three big wolves to defeat. Could Sauron be flavoured differently to break this up. Maybe he has more of a smoke like metaphysical wolf dark ‘patronus’ surrounding him as he battles. He’s still lord of werewolves but also set apart as a different kind of foe?
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
For Sauron, it really does feel like he is sweeping potential threats of the board. They feel like disconnected actions with the overall big picture of making this his land. Take out men, distrust the elves. Sow havoc. Which is his deal. This feels like big movement toward trying to become a dark Lord. The fact it fails should inform him later. So he should maybe make mistakes here that he doesn’t repeat later? I don’t know what they are, but we could view this as Dark Lord beta testing. So we build it some aspects we know audiences won’t recognise as the later staples of Sauron’s machinations. What does he learn in this series by being defeated by Luthien? Is it to not underestimate individual foes? Maybe he hears of some small individual movement that he doesn’t bother to stop. In contrast to later sending our black riders to sleepy hobbiton?

I’ve previously toyed with the idea of having this be the time he starts using the Eye as a cost of arms for his army? Ala Sauraman and his white hand. It may be a little early for a step that far though. But maybe something to indicate this is a unified power play?

Could Sauron flee because basically this power play is exposed to Morgoth and now he’s in his boss’ black list? And Glaurung is sort of recalled to fill the void left by Sauron?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'd say that the taking of Tol Sirion is a strategic move; it essentially cuts Beleriand in two at the River Sirion.

Also, The Silmarillion says that after getting his ass kicked by Luthien and Huan, Sauron transforms into a vampire and flees to Taur-nu-Fuin. Maybe he'll menace any unwary traveler in that land, say the Orcs who are passing through with Turin as their prisoner or Beleg and Gwindor.
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
Could we have luthien take out Thuringwethil?
I have always liked the idea of Luthien going after Thuringwethil personally, she acquires her 2nd coat fully proactively going after Beren to confront the baddies, where she weaves her first cloak as an escape from her prison. How exactly she goes after her is very open, it doesn't have to just be another boss battle, we definitely have enough of those.

luthien final_comp.jpeg


(Yeah i love luthien very much, how did you notice)

I still am not completely decided how i imagine the metamorphosis of luthiens magic with her cloaks... but i am very intrigued.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
I wonder if we could have Celebrimbor take out Thuringwethil on their way to Nargothrond as part of reestablishing him as a character, perhaps in helping. Orodreth to escape. We’ve already seen him be very brave in trying to rescue his mother. It can be done in a clever way (so not by brute strength since T. is a spy, not a warrior herself).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The most boring option available for the death of Thuringwethil is that she be killed by a falling block of rock when Lúthien razes Minas Tirith/The Wizard's Tower. Meaning, yes, technically she is killed by Lúthien, but it's not a direct confrontation. Obviously, I wouldn't be suggesting this if I didn't think we should do it, but with the caveat that we interject a lot more meaning and significance into that moment. I don't want a 'rocks fall; vampire dies' situation! But it would be nice to have Huan defeat wolf-Sauron, only for Lúthien to take down the tower and Thuringwethil in a single blow. I think there are advantages to keeping Thuringwethil alive long enough to witness Sauron's defeat - her horrified perspective on Huan winning that fight against wolf-Sauron would be useful.

Also, The Silmarillion says that after getting his ass kicked by Luthien and Huan, Sauron transforms into a vampire and flees to Taur-nu-Fuin. Maybe he'll menace any unwary traveler in that land, say the Orcs who are passing through with Turin as their prisoner or Beleg and Gwindor.
Right. That's his first stop. Corey Olsen did suggest an interaction between Sauron and Shelob this season. Perhaps a before/after situation? The Lord of the Isle of Werewolves is talking to Shelob in an effort to work spiders into his plan, but then a wounded/defeated/ousted Sauron contacts Shelob with a much less ambitious strategy....or the same request, but now it's his only game running. We are going to want to see the transformation of Taur-nu-Fuin...but how long will Sauron stick around there?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The most boring option available for the death of Thuringwethil is that she be killed by a falling block of rock when Lúthien razes Minas Tirith/The Wizard's Tower. Meaning, yes, technically she is killed by Lúthien, but it's not a direct confrontation. Obviously, I wouldn't be suggesting this if I didn't think we should do it, but with the caveat that we interject a lot more meaning and significance into that moment. I don't want a 'rocks fall; vampire dies' situation! But it would be nice to have Huan defeat wolf-Sauron, only for Lúthien to take down the tower and Thuringwethil in a single blow. I think there are advantages to keeping Thuringwethil alive long enough to witness Sauron's defeat - her horrified perspective on Huan winning that fight against wolf-Sauron would be useful.



Right. That's his first stop. Corey Olsen did suggest an interaction between Sauron and Shelob this season. Perhaps a before/after situation? The Lord of the Isle of Werewolves is talking to Shelob in an effort to work spiders into his plan, but then a wounded/defeated/ousted Sauron contacts Shelob with a much less ambitious strategy....or the same request, but now it's his only game running. We are going to want to see the transformation of Taur-nu-Fuin...but how long will Sauron stick around there?
Well, I had that option in mind for Thurwingwethil. Another option I've had is that she's killed in the four years Beren fights his one-man war in Dorthonion; he'd send back the cloak/pelt.

Well, Beleg is killed in 490 F.A. and that's the last that Dorthonion appears in Tolkien's works chronologically (barring Treebeard's poem about the pines of Dorthonion in winter). He could leave at any point afterwards if we so wanted.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Could we have luthien take out Thuringwethil? Almost planted the seeds that the shouldn’t be taken lightly by the dark forces. And then she would just have the pelt/cloak. Just tightens things up a little more.

The one thing I’m really worried about, as Nicholas expressed, is the repetition of werewolf at adversaries. I really liked the idea of Carcharoth being a reaction to Draugluin’s defeat and I love the seeding of him as a puppy and the rumour of a new guardian.

We still have Draugluin, then wolf Sauron then Carcharoth though. It feels repetitive if it’s just three big wolves to defeat. Could Sauron be flavoured differently to break this up. Maybe he has more of a smoke like metaphysical wolf dark ‘patronus’ surrounding him as he battles. He’s still lord of werewolves but also set apart as a different kind of foe?
Like the Lost Souls in Soul?

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
OK, I don't have a lot of time to wade into this right this second, but isn't there a time after the destruction of the tower during which Luthien and Beren are separated? Might be a good opportunity for a vengeful vampire to show up and get killed.
 

kanji_d

Member
Jumping into this while the story is fresh: to me this is kind of the point where Sauron loses favor with Morgoth, which is why he goes to Taur-nu-Fuin. He's running away from Morgoth's wrath. But we still need him to be around Morgoth for a bit. He's captured along with the rest of Morgoth's Ainur and tried after the War of Wrath. Why does he return then? Is it forcible? I get the feeling it might be. Maybe Morgoth sends one of his other lieutenants (it would be satisfying if it were Gothmog but he tends to draw attention to himself what with the flames and all) to capture Sauron and return him? Maybe Sauron "repents" of his betrayal. We could mimic the Trial of Melkor in Season 2, perhaps, keeping that cufflink Morgoth was bound with while on probation (I have just read the script where this is what Maedhros is bound to the cliff with in our version), and Sauron can have that around his wrist until being freed after his repentance (feigned or otherwise) before Manwë after the War of Wrath. Just some thoughts.

Bit of an aside as I don't have much of an opinion on Thuringwethil, but it's also the time to start thinking about the name Thû (for the uninformed, this was the character's name in the Lay of Leithian). I see two places we can use it: and one of them is here. The other involves postponing it until the Third Age (having it be a name used for the Necromancer in Dol Guldur), so we don't have to worry about that one. But if we choose to use it here, I suggest that when Sauron takes over Tol Sirion he names himself Thû (maybe the identity of the invading captain isn't known to the audience, so they're surprised too). Then, we can have people in our Nargothrond subplots talking about the dark wizard Thû who controls Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and then he reveals himself as Sauron when Beren and Finrod arrive and are captured.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, I think this is the perfect opportunity to make use of the name Thû. We likely will have the opportunity to use it for the Sauron-in-the-east plot that we will need to invent for Season 7, though, as well.
 

David_M_R

Member
One thing we might need to set up/prefigure is Morgoth's "evil lust". If he suddenly discovers his hormones when Luthien starts dancing, there's not necessarily an easy and unforced way to show it. Dark mutterings amongst the bad guys about the unspecified uses to which Morgoth puts some of his elf women slaves offscreen means we know what he's capable of, is in the habit of doing, and what his tastes are. Luthien playing the coquette (as in the Lay) was either a stroke of inspired genius/luck on the spur of the moment, or perhaps it was planned, based on stories spread by escaped Noldor thralls.

This way, also, we would removing the parallel with Beren seeing Luthien then instantly falling in love/lust, inviting the potential for people to think there was a similar aspect to their much more wholesome relationship. Not to mention Celegorm's apparently instant infatuation, and the question of what his intentions were.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I wonder if Luthien has a sort of hypnotic quality naturally. Something that brings people peace and calm as she heals them. But can be ‘weaponised’ an enhanced through a dance to sedate watchers
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
One thing we might need to set up/prefigure is Morgoth's "evil lust". If he suddenly discovers his hormones when Luthien starts dancing, there's not necessarily an easy and unforced way to show it. Dark mutterings amongst the bad guys about the unspecified uses to which Morgoth puts some of his elf women slaves offscreen means we know what he's capable of, is in the habit of doing, and what his tastes are. Luthien playing the coquette (as in the Lay) was either a stroke of inspired genius/luck on the spur of the moment, or perhaps it was planned, based on stories spread by escaped Noldor thralls.

This way, also, we would removing the parallel with Beren seeing Luthien then instantly falling in love/lust, inviting the potential for people to think there was a similar aspect to their much more wholesome relationship. Not to mention Celegorm's apparently instant infatuation, and the question of what his intentions were.
I thought this Morgoth's lust aspect was from before the Ainur got desexualised. Morgoth is not completely incarnate so no "hormones" for him, imho. Whatever lust he might feel would be a desire for power and the possessions of light. Captured ellith would not be attractive to him in their misery, as they are overpovered already. Luthien might, as being half-Ainur she is a powerfull being he could theoretical get into a relationship (of powers) with.
 

David_M_R

Member
I thought this Morgoth's lust aspect was from before the Ainur got desexualised. Morgoth is not completely incarnate so no "hormones" for him, imho. Whatever lust he might feel would be a desire for power and the possessions of light. Captured ellith would not be attractive to him in their misery, as they are overpovered already. Luthien might, as being half-Ainur she is a powerfull being he could theoretical get into a relationship (of powers) with.
Hmm. That seems plausible. Probably worth re-checking the material where it was decided how Morgoth interacted with Varda and Arien. But Morgoth of this season is not the Melkor of then, so it has to be distinguished here. At that point there was still a constructive side to Melkor's motivation (to a greater or lesser degree). Now his motivation is much more destructive. I'm not sure I see him offering a partnership, but more wanting to hurt; if not merely Luthien herself, then Thingol and Melian by proxy. There is no premeditation here, it is something that happens relatively quickly. I'm not sure Morgoth would have a plan to enact in case a Sindarin princess turned up in his court.

This is I guess my overarching point: we need to set up what he is thinking at the point Luthien is dancing, and why, so that the audience can deduce it and it makes sense. If we are not having him lust (in the modern sense) after Luthien, then it needs to be clear that it's not that. Getting Morgoth to have a discussion with Luthien about some kind of proposal might be too much of a stretch of this really pivotal scene. Having an audible internal monologue seems a bit on the nose, too.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Hmm. That seems plausible. Probably worth re-checking the material where it was decided how Morgoth interacted with Varda and Arien. But Morgoth of this season is not the Melkor of then, so it has to be distinguished here. At that point there was still a constructive side to Melkor's motivation (to a greater or lesser degree). Now his motivation is much more destructive. I'm not sure I see him offering a partnership, but more wanting to hurt; if not merely Luthien herself, then Thingol and Melian by proxy. There is no premeditation here, it is something that happens relatively quickly. I'm not sure Morgoth would have a plan to enact in case a Sindarin princess turned up in his court.

This is I guess my overarching point: we need to set up what he is thinking at the point Luthien is dancing, and why, so that the audience can deduce it and it makes sense. If we are not having him lust (in the modern sense) after Luthien, then it needs to be clear that it's not that. Getting Morgoth to have a discussion with Luthien about some kind of proposal might be too much of a stretch of this really pivotal scene. Having an audible internal monologue seems a bit on the nose, too.
The desire to claim and destroy something fresh, powerfull and beautiful needs no long deliberation either. But this is not a carnal desire per se but one of power and dominance.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
What does Morgoth want is a great question. What is his motivation right now and what does Luthien bring to that? How does their confrontation change is character and push the story forward for each for them?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The one thing I’m really worried about, as Nicholas expressed, is the repetition of werewolf at adversaries. I really liked the idea of Carcharoth being a reaction to Draugluin’s defeat snd I love the seeding of him as a puppy and the rumour of a new guardian.
Reminds me of how i once wanted to see Melkor with a young Glaurung... i thought of Blofeld and his cat but
Cory was vehemently against it because he feared viewers might find a tiny serpent-Glaurung cute...

Would be the same problem again i think, except if we show Carcharoth at a somewhat later age, and the flesh melkor feeds him maybe comes from a person we used to like.People would feel uncomforatble and think of the Wolf as far less cute already then i believe.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I thought this Morgoth's lust aspect was from before the Ainur got desexualised. Morgoth is not completely incarnate so no "hormones" for him, imho. Whatever lust he might feel would be a desire for power and the possessions of light. Captured ellith would not be attractive to him in their misery, as they are overpovered already. Luthien might, as being half-Ainur she is a powerfull being he could theoretical get into a relationship (of powers) with.
He isn't completely incarnate at that point? I thought he was by the time he visited Hildorien and certainly the time he dueled Fingolfin?

Anyway... i think of Melkor as a corruptor, so when he becomes aware of Luthien he would wish to corrupt her, spoiling her by harassing and contaminating her physically would suit him, that incorporates sexually, no hormones needed, it is domination and humiliation.
 
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