Session 6-02: The Villain Storylines

He isn't completely incarnate at that point? I thought he was by the time he visited Hildorien and certainly the time he dueled Fingolfin?

Anyway... i think of Melkor as a corruptor, so when he becomes aware of Luthien he would wish to corrupt her, spoiling her by harassing and contaminating her physically would suit him, that incorporates sexually, no hormones needed, it is domination and humiliation.

Could Daeron be planted as precursor of this. Obviously he obsesses over Luthien and his response after being spurned implies an unhealthy layer to this. Luthien, after being objectified, would likely respond unfavourably and we can plant the seeds that she is not the sort of woman who takes being idealised and objectified lightly. So when we see Morgoth lusting after her we are like ‘oh, he’s opened a can of worms here. If there was one thing he should not have done it’s turn her into an object of domination.’ Beren could even see this, and than rather trying to be defensive in this moment we could see him letting Lúthien take control of standing up for herself without him feeling the need to be her protector. Maybe he’s been defensive of her early on but after their long journey he fully appreciates the power she holds more than before. I mean, I don’t think he should ever see her as a damsel in distress but he is a warrior who fights for what he loves. And we could see him react very strongly to Daeron perhaps and has to be quelled by Luthien. And with Morgoth he realises she can take on a dark god in a way he just can’t and doesn’t need to on her behalf. Maybe not that specifically, but you get what I mean. The finale being a moment in their relationship empowering to the both and showing they fully understand who they are together that leads to the defeat of the darkness
 
Would we want to? Daeron is not a bad guy... he turns creepy at some point but it is because of his pain and deluted unrequited love.He certainly somehow he feels as if he was Luthiens boyfriend and both were destined for each other... Luthien does not.But still i insist... Daeron feels jilted and makes mistakes, but not because he is an evil guy.
 
Would we want to? Daeron is not a bad guy... he turns creepy at some point but it is because of his pain and deluted unrequited love.He certainly somehow he feels as if he was Luthiens boyfriend and both were destined for each other... Luthien does not.But still i insist... Daeron feels jilted and makes mistakes, but not because he is an evil guy.

I don’t think he needs to be evil. But I don’t think his actions should just be brushed off. We don’t have to make him villainous or an utter incel for luthien to be angered or Beren to react strongly (if he finds out). We can redeem Daeron if we want but there would still be immediate reactions from characters involved, rightly or wrongly (though I do feel having a character basically obsess over a woman and then be forgiven or redeemed needs to be handled very delicately). I think I to have an easy out for him would be misplaced. He should earn back any respect. But I think he’s a good place to speak to Luthien not being a character who cannot be easily dominated or objectified as a singular thing. Which helps also negate any fears the audience may have about her just being an object of Beren’s affection by making it clear she knows she has agency and won’t stand for being objectified. In that sense it’s clear again that she’s chosen Beren as much as her fallen for this immortal enchantress
 
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Would we want to? Daeron is not a bad guy... he turns creepy at some point but it is because of his pain and deluted unrequited love.He certainly somehow he feels as if he was Luthiens boyfriend and both were destined for each other... Luthien does not.But still i insist... Daeron feels jilted and makes mistakes, but not because he is an evil guy.

Yeah, I support that. Daeron invented runes, he cannot be a bad guy. ;-)
Just make him a very orderly guy who had his future life with Luthien already carefully planned out and who is furious of a mere human vagabound throwing all his plans and (from his point - justified) expectations into thin air. This would nicelly recall Feanor's fears of the Second-Comers "disowning" the elves in Middle-Earth - which would then seem a more general elvish attitude, and not limited only to the Noldor. Make this about "entitlement", not lust.
 
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Yeah, I support that. Daeron invented runes, he cannot be a bad guy. ;-)

Then I don’t think we can do the being a creep storyline. If we want to keep him as a pure hero we can’t go there. If we want to stick to the book and make him a complex figure then I support that, but it must come with consequences and response. We obviously don’t want a story promoting male entitlement. You don’t want to be playing off stalking or getting revenge on someone who spurned you as coming from a sweet place of misunderstanding. He doesn’t need to be villainous but his actions need to be dealt with in knowledge it was very wrong and that what he did was morally reprehensible, even if we don’t make him a two dimensional villain. We can certainly have flawed characters but this is a pretty big flaw to not result in a response. I just think Luthien’s reaction needs to inform us about who she is in a weightier portion than Daeron’s actions
building any potential sympathy with him
 
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Then I don’t think we can do the being a creep storyline. If we want to keep him as a pure hero we can’t go there. If we want to stick to the book and make him a complex figure then I support that, but it must come with consequences and response. We obviously don’t want a story promoting male entitlement. You don’t want to be playing off stalking or getting revenge on someone who spurned you as coming from a sweet place of misunderstanding. He doesn’t need to be villainous but his actions need to be dealt with in knowledge it was very wrong and that what he did was morally reprehensible, even if we don’t make him a two dimensional villain. We can certainly have flawed characters but this is a pretty big flaw to not result in a response. I just think Luthien’s reaction needs to inform us about who she is in a weightier portion than Daeron’s actions
building any potential sympathy with him
If we show this as an example of elves struggling to come to terms with the disruptive and fate-changing elements and the uncertainity and "chaos" that humans bring into their world, he might be forgiven.
 
If we show this as an example of elves struggling to come to terms with the disruptive and fate-changing elements and the uncertainity and "chaos" that humans bring into their world, he might be forgiven.

He can be forgiven but I don’t think it can be by removing the blame from his own actions. As I say, he don’t have to make it an outright villain but dealing with this particular storyline needs a lot of sensitivity. To say that the harassment he causes isn’t his fault is super problematic unless we overtly show him under some literal form of control that does mitigate his choices. If we are to forgive snd reintegrate him, he needs to own what he did and do something to redeem himself. Maybe he aids in the liberation of Beren as self-imposed recompense. I mean, maybe him forcing Luthien to be in his company as an apology for stalking her isn’t right. But perhaps he’s forced to go. Though I don’t love the narrative of prioritising his redemption over Luthien’s care in that instance. I’m thinking aloud here. Something to redeem him through actions anyway. And it should be his choice.
 
It would be far more interesting to make Daeron a complex character.Somebody who does have a lot of intellect, and a lot of passion, but who also is emotional, makes bad decisions. Why i always liked Daeron is because he is an artist... he is a poet, a musician... no doubt a person with very strong feelings, no doubt also a man of much learning. Yet... he does things that are not allright, he acts certainly over Luthiens head, that also is in a way a betraying of trust for a loved one.Yet he feels no doubt totally right, it is i feel a bit similar to what odola wrote about Eol.Under different circumstances Daeron could have become a second Eol...
 
It would be far more interesting to make Daeron a complex character.Somebody who does have a lot of intellect, and a lot of passion, but who also is emotional, makes bad decisions. Why i always liked Daeron is because he is an artist... he is a poet, a musician... no doubt a person with very strong feelings, no doubt also a man of much learning. Yet... he does things that are not allright, he acts certainly over Luthiens head, that also is in a way a betraying of trust for a loved one.Yet he feels no doubt totally right, it is i feel a bit similar to what odola wrote about Eol.Under different circumstances Daeron could have become a second Eol...

I agree, we should sympathise with him. Or at least know him well. That way his betrayal hurts the viewer too. We feel that sting as we thought we knew this person. As Luthien did.

All I think is that there needs to be fallout. He can climb back in our esteem if we want that but it really has to merited otherwise we’re on very thin ice. It could come off as the ‘forgivable abuser’
 
He can be forgiven but I don’t think it can be by removing the blame from his own actions. As I say, he don’t have to make it an outright villain but dealing with this particular storyline needs a lot of sensitivity. To say that the harassment he causes isn’t his fault is super problematic unless we overtly show him under some literal form of control that does mitigate his choices. If we are to forgive snd reintegrate him, he needs to own what he did and do something to redeem himself. Maybe he aids in the liberation of Beren as self-imposed recompense. I mean, maybe him forcing Luthien to be in his company as an apology for stalking her isn’t right. But perhaps he’s forced to go. Though I don’t love the narrative of prioritising his redemption over Luthien’s care in that instance. I’m thinking aloud here. Something to redeem him through actions anyway. And it should be his choice.
Just make him Dior's "god-father" and teacher after his parents are gone - imho redemption enough. Maybe he invents the runes to preserve Beren's story for human posterity?
 
Just make him Dior's "god-father" and teacher after his parents are gone - imho redemption enough. Maybe he invents the runes to preserve Beren's story for human posterity?
He was a stalker and he didn’t really make up for it or pay any price but we all let that go and in the end he wasn’t too bad?
 
Sure, but the writers did a very great Job in portraing Feanor... we somehow still like him, even if he is a very cruel, fanatic man.He is a magnetic personality.

Worst thing we could do is i believe make Daeron a typical creepy jilted Jerk.He should have qualities too and a likeable side.Why would Luthien spend so much time with him? She friendzones him, sure, but i believe she also honestly likes him and enjoys his company.He must have something about him too.
 
For me this goes back to a storywriting principle of holding a question in mind when writing a story. Not the be all and end all but a guiding light to determine if story elements are contributing to the story or not. Not a yes or no question either. Or even a simple descriptive answer. A question about ‘to what degree’ and ‘to what purpose’ type of question. It ideally shouldn’t be a question that can be easily answered or that IS answered, but something to be explored and meditated on. It’s a port in the storm.*

For me, Beren and Luthien is about to what degree love might enough be enough to overcome evil.

To that end, it’s good to look at different kinds of love and different kinds of evil. And how they interact with one another and if one always does defeat the other

If Daeron ‘loves’ wrongly and does evil, can love overcome that? Whose love? Does the duty fall on his offended party/victim to love him regardless? Is that right or even enough? Does the love need to come from him? For whom? Those kind of questions can get us to an answer. Depends on the overarching question of the season and how that ties into the overarching question of the series. But I think dropping that thread and allowing it to be resolved letter as just ‘he didn’t do it again and that’s okay’ doesn’t tie to the question or tie into the wider story of the season in which case, why tell it?


*you can call it the theme or focus
 
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For me this goes back to a storywriting principle of holding a question in mind when writing a story. Not the be all and end all but a guiding light to determine if story elements are contributing to the story or not. Not a yes or no question either. Or even a simple descriptive answer. A question about ‘to what degree’ and ‘to what purpose’ type of question. It ideally shouldn’t be a question that can be easily answered or that IS answered, but something to be explored and meditated on. It’s a port in the storm.

For me, Beren and Luthien is about to what degree love might enough be enough to overcome evil.

To that end, it’s good to look at different kinds of love and different kinds of evil. And how they interact with one another and if one always does defeat the other

If Daeron ‘loves’ wrongly and does evil, can love overcome that? Whose love? Does the duty fall on his offended party/victim to love him regardless? Is that right or even enough? Does the love need to come from him? For whom? Those kind of questions can get us to an answer. Depends on the overarching question of the season and how that ties into the overarching question of the series. But I think dropping that thread and allowing it to be resolved letter as just ‘he didn’t do it again and that’s okay’ doesn’t tie to the question or tie into the wider story of the season in which case, why tell it?
I am not sure what element you do consider as Daeron's doing wrongly exactly? As far I remember most of his action are in line also with him being loyal to his king? As he has not yet exchanged any vows with Luthien at present his first loyalty still lies with the king over even her as his childhood friend and confidante.
 
I am not sure what element you do consider as Daeron's doing wrongly exactly? As far I remember most of his action are in line also with him being loyal to his king? As he has not yet exchanged any vows with Luthien at present his first loyalty lies with the king over even her as his childhood friends nad confidante.

He is in love with her snd then when she rejects him he very intentionally tells Thingol of her relationship with Beren which up till that point he has kept secret. It’s very intentionally a reaction to her sidelining of him and speaks to an entitlement that his desire should’ve been reciprocated. Even if implicit, unless we change the order of things that’s certainly how the audience will view it and allowing that to go unaddressed won’t paint him favourably. It’ll be hard to keep him as a liked character if we see him betray our protagonist with pretty major results and there be no response for him to make.

I do think in an isolated telling of Beren and Luthien you can play him as an antagonist without the necessity for redemption but in this series where he is already established and we likely want to follow up with him later we need to be clear on how this event is dealt with and that it is not the end nor lies unresolved. Or you could have subsequent seasons play with him trying to make up for this, which is an option. Save his personal journey back for later.
 
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To return to the thread topic, if we go along the line of Morgoth wanting something so fair just to despoil it, could the Boldog attack be worked into the season?

@Rhiannon's thoughts on the matter, since this thread seems more apt to discuss it:
  • Allowing us to keep the reference to Boldog when Finrod and Beren talk to Sauron. I really like the way this exchange plays out in "The Lay of Leithian," and I would prefer to keep as much as possible.
  • Demonstrating the strength of Doriath. Dorthonion has fallen. Most of the Feanorian lands have been taken. Sauron is in command of Minas Tirith. Now, Morgoth's forces have reached the marches of Doriath, and there is no reason to think this attack would be doomed. Melian's magic may be able to keep evil forces out of the land surrounded by the Girdle, but there is clearly land outside it that the Sindar feel necessary to protect; otherwise, Beleg and Turin wouldn't have anything to do when Turin is living in Doriath. A show of Doriath's military might would remind the viewers that the Sindar do not just rely on Melian's magic to protect them; they are also quite capable of fighting.
  • Creating a greater sense of danger for those outside the Girdle. Whether or not we keep the capture of Luthien as one of the motives of Boldog's attack, the fact that there is a large force of Orcs attacking Doriath will lend credibility to Thingol's desire to keep Luthien from following Beren and heighten the sense of danger when she does set out.
  • Giving Thingol something heroic to do. Thingol is going to be an antagonist of the Beren and Luthien story, but if all he does is sit on his throne and tell people what to do, I think there is a danger of him seeming all bark and no bite. Moreover, this battle would be a chance to show that Thingol is not a completely one-sided character, that he cares for his people's safety, and that he is not a coward who always hides behind the Girdle.
  • Giving Beleg and Mablung something to do. Beleg and Mablung help out with the Hunting of the Wolf, but that is pretty much all they currently have to do in Season 6. This attack on Doriath is a chance for them to have some more screentime.
  • Foreshadowing the impact of Thingol's death. A reminder that Thingol is an effective military leader will also help explain why Doriath falls apart after his death, and I would kind of like to include a brief scene where Thingol is about to set out and Melian warns him to be careful and cryptically hints that the power of the Girdle is tied to his life as well.
 
I agree that despoiling what is fair is a major thread. The dark lust for what is beautiful is prominent also in Thingol. I think any change to visually play up that dichotomy is a good thing

If we’ve now established Daeron doesn’t fall into ‘villain’ (maybe ‘antagonist’ is still appropriate to a degree) let’s pick that up elsewhere
 
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