Session 6-04: Villains

Rob Harding

Active Member
True. But if he catches Beren too soon he will have to go to Dorthonion himself and prepare the attack on Doriath. He will do that, someday, soon, just not now.
Not sure what you mean by catching Beren too soon? I really don't think Beren should be a priority of his. As I said, he would probably want no survivors, but when he finds out there is one, I doubt he'd care at this point. I think the point is that he overestimates what he can accomplish and underestimates a mere mortal.

Which, you know, ties into our ideas that immortals may be able to plan for the long haul, but immortals like Luthien, like Sauron, don't easily anticipate the haste and passion of a mortal, and what they can accomplish with it.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean by catching Beren too soon? I really don't think Beren should be a priority of his. As I said, he would probably want no survivors, but when he finds out there is one, I doubt he'd care at this point. I think the point is that he overestimates what he can accomplish and underestimates a mere mortal.

Which, you know, ties into our ideas that immortals may be able to plan for the long haul, but immortals like Luthien, like Sauron, don't easily anticipate the haste and passion of a mortal, and what they can accomplish with it.
Morgoth is dimishing. He knows it, he feels it. He just got wounded by one of the Children for crying out loud! But he won. It was worth it. Now he must not lose momentum. He has to get rid of the only really big player left, while he still can. The other little players can be taken out later, one by one. That one big player left is Thingol. When Thingol is slain, the Sindar will splitter. Melian will leave. Thingol has no heir like those little Noldorings do. The Sindar never saw the Trees. They are Eldar in name only. They will become little more than Avari without Thingol. They are the most numerous. This would be a corruption indeed. If he puts all the power he has against Doriath the little Maia's girdle will shatter. Now is the time. Let's go on with this.

But Sauron does not think so. To him it is more important to save himself from going down Morgoth's path. Sauron will dimish others to increase himself, but he is not yet ready to dimish himself just to dimish others. He wants achieve greatness still. He is not yet content in just destroying the work of others. Doriath can wait. Lets make sure we find a better way to this whole "being evil thing" - a less costly way to ourselves. Doriath can wait, Dorthonion can wait, that silly human there can wait too, he dies on his own soon enough. First things first.
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
Morgoth is dimishing. He knows it, he feels it. He just got wounded by one of the Children for crying out loud! But he won. It was worth it. Now he must not loose momentum. He has to get rid of the only really big player left, while he still can. The other little players can be taken out later, one by one. That one big player left is Thingol. When Thingol is slayn, the Sindar will splitter. Melian will leave.Thingol has no heir like those little Noldorings do. The Sindar never saw the Trees. They are Eldar in name only. They will become little more then Avari without Thingol. The are the most numerous. This would be a corruption indeed. Of he puts all the power he has against Doriath the little Maia's girdle will shatter. Now is the time. Let's go on with this.

But Sauron does not think do. To him it od more important to save himself from going down Morgoth' path. Sauron will dimish others to increase himself, but he is not yet ready to dimish himself just to dimish others. He wants achieve greatness still. He is not yet content in just destroying the work od others. Doriath can wait. Lets make sure we find a better way to this whole "being evil thing" - in less costly way to ourselves. Doriath can wait, Dorthonion can wait, that silly human there can wait too, he dies on his own soon enough. First things first.
Yes, I get what you mean now. I do think I got wires crossed as to Morgoth/Sauron motivations in what you said. This I agree with as Sauron motivation.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I do assume they could but I've never seen a map with those orc roads included. Do you know of any map showing the orc road network? Or maybe we should creates one ourselves for this purpose?
We know little about them, but Tolkien mentions them on and off... i could look for quotes if we want to...

The Orcs' Road of Haste led into the Pass of Anach, which cut down the mountains of Ered Gorgoroth and across the shadowed valley of Nan Dungortheb. So there is at last one of them very relevant for Dorthonion.I'd like to see if theres more on it, otherwise, yes we could ourselves try to rationalize possible orc routes and roads, could be interesting...
 
Last edited:

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I am for both, economical storytelling AND establishing Barahir's bands reputation, i think it can be done, i like some things being told optically or graphically instead of in dialogue... that is a weak point in many modern tv shows and cinematic movies which the classics often did better by leaving things open to suggestion and let the pictures talk instead.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I am for both, economical storytelling AND establishing Barahir's bands reputation, i think it can be done, i like some things being told optically or graphically instead of in dialogue... that is a weak point in many modern tv shows and cinematic movies which the classics often did better by leaving things open to suggestion and let the pictures talk instead.
The Mandalorian does an excellent job of establish time, tone and the character of the setting (and by extension, it’s inhabitants) by simply showing bloodied Stormtrooper helmets on spikes during its opening. I still think we can do the same thing.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
We know little about them, but Tolkien mentions them on and off... i could look for quotes if we want to...

The Orcs' Road of Haste led into the Pass of Anach, which cut down the mountains of Ered Gorgoroth and across the shadowed valley of Nan Dungortheb. So there is at last one of them very relevant for Dorthonion.I'd like to see if theres more on it, otherwise, yes we could ourselves try to rationalize possible orc routes and roads, could be interesting...
Yeah, there should be one in the Sirion valley, since Sauron is there, and then some on towards Angand itself, I would think.
 
Last edited:

Odola

Well-Known Member
I am for both, economical storytelling AND establishing Barahir's bands reputation, i think it can be done, i like some things being told optically or graphically instead of in dialogue... that is a weak point in many modern tv shows and cinematic movies which the classics often did better by leaving things open to suggestion and let the pictures talk instead.
I would love some scene of Barahir's men having skillfully lured orcs in a open clearing in the forest then attacking them with atlatls from several sides. Would look nice, even if I would be tempted to pity the orcs...
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
I would love some scene of Barahir's men having skillfully lured orcs in a open clearing in the forest and then attacking them with atlatls from several sides. Would look nice, even if I would be tempted to pity the orcs...
This could be good for showcasing Beren’s normal status quo, his character snd skills, before his catalytic event that gets him out the door onto adventure. That is, the brutal massacre of his people
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there should be one in the Sirion valley, since Sauron is there, and then some on towards Angand itself, I would think.
Karen Wynn Fonstadt has the troop movements mapped out pretty well in her Atlas of Middle-earth, i think they can be used to guess possible tracks for roads.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yes, I get what you mean now. I do think I got wires crossed as to Morgoth/Sauron motivations in what you said. This I agree with as Sauron motivation.
The things this approach I described above would accomplish are:

1) to stress the impact of Fingollfin's deed
2) to give our villains a believable conflict of interest
3) to explain why Dorthonion is vital for Morgoth at the moment and
4) why the orc road build though Dorthonion leading to Doriath is called "Orcs' Road of Haste"
5) the building of which road gives the orcs the reason to have been there in Dorthonion to be ambushed by Barahir's men in great numbers o warrant their reputation as orc-killers
6) to explain why Morgoth placed a price on Beren's head without thinking too much of him personally
7) to explain why Sauron is so little interested in Beren himself when they do meet finally
8) to have Thuringwethil be the poor messenger who Sauron sends to face a more and more annoyed Morgoth as she has to stand in and explain Sauron's apparent negligence or incompetence in clearing and claiming the whole of Dorthonion and moving along with the Doriath attack plan
9) to set up Thuringwethil's fury at finding out that while she had to be covering in front of Morgoth for Sauron's out of a sudden losing interest in "doing his homework", he was not only "playing with his new play station instead" but he was "playing with HER very own play station he appropriated for himself behind her back without her even knowing"
10) to explain why Sauron does claim Dorthonion after the explosion of the "tub of evil" before he moves on to future plans behind the mountains - the Doriath attack part is shelved for now due to Morgoth's need to recover and to deal with Maedhros encouraged after the B&L success, but Sauron finishes the Dorthonion part that has been his duty.

We do not have to show all of such a dynamic, but what we show should be making sense. We should take our villains seriously.

Such a dynamic would also explain Thingol's being on the edge, overstrained and impatient with both wife and daughter. He has more pressing things to deal with now than his wife's cryptic warnings or his daughter's ridiculous new choice of a lover ("This one at least will die before she gets bored with him, .like she did with the previous one, but still, she will be heartbroken. Let's sends him away and they will both come to their senses when apart for a while. I really have no leisure to reason with her now.)
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
I’m not sure I understand the point of 6. I really am not sure why Morgoth would put a bounty on one man.

As for 8 and 9, I don’t think we should casually show Morgoth much. I think he should be a whispered name this season to reflect how his presence Is experienced by our protagonist, as a sort of bogeyman. Save him for his big reveal. Ala Mr Fiskin the Daredevil series
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure I understand the point of 6. I really am not sure why Morgoth would put a bounty on one man.
It is in the texts and one of my questions here was exactly - why? But if the orc are really as terrified of him as the texts say and this impacts the swiftness of the road's completion Morgoth would do that. He might even dispatch some special mysterious assassin forces who are the ones who make Beren leave Dorthonion in the end - he might not even see them but the dread he feels might be enough to make him leave for good.

As for 8 and 9, I don’t think we should casually show Morgoth much. I think he should be a whispered name this season to reflect how his presence Is experienced by our protagonist, as a sort of bogeyman. Save him for his big reveal. Ala Mr Fiskin the Daredevil series
Thuringwethil might report to somebody some levels down if you do need it. Maybe somebody she does not like personally. Still she would be made to understand that Morgoth's patience grows thin and then be ridiculed herself for following such a failure. Not much of a difference imho.

Also the "small scale" attack on Doriath that does take place during Lay of Leithan might be a test attack to check the reactivity and fighting style of the Sindar - in preparation for the total war planned.

[And we get the origin story of the named orc road which will feature in future seasons as a bonus.]
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
I still don't really think the bounty adds much. I'm not sure it's a vital part of the text we need to hold to.

In terms of Thuringwethil, I can picture a scene of her flying back from Angband shortly after the taking of Tol Sirion. And later discussing Morgoth's pleasure at Sauron's taking of it. And maybe Sauron reveals he didn't do it for Morgoth. And she begins to see Sauron's burgeoning independence. As things progress, he tells her not to go to Morgoth. They don't need to know the thoughts of Angband anymore. But of course, Thuringwethil being who she is, she does need to know. So we see her again flying to Angband, going against Sauron's commands.

I think that's enough to imply Morgoth within the story, up to the half way (ish) mark at least, without needing to see him or hear too much from him. Just snippets of Angband are enough to imply his presence over affairs.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I still don't really think the bounty adds much. I'm not sure it's a vital part of the text we need to hold to.

In terms of Thuringwethil, I can picture a scene of her flying back from Angband shortly after the taking of Tol Sirion. And later discussing Morgoth's pleasure at Sauron's taking of it. And maybe Sauron reveals he didn't do it for Morgoth. And she begins to see Sauron's burgeoning independence. As things progress, he tells her not to go to Morgoth. They don't need to know the thoughts of Angband anymore. But of course, Thuringwethil being who she is, she does need to know. So we see her again flying to Angband, going against Sauron's commands.

I think that's enough to imply Morgoth within the story, up to the half way (ish) mark at least, without needing to see him or hear too much from him. Just snippets of Angband are enough to imply his presence over affairs.
We do need a strong motivation for Beren to leave Dorthonion - his home he defended with so much commitment so far - especially as both the montains that he crosses as also the plain between them an Doriath are about the worst possible places ever to cross. So he must be driven by something even worse behind him. He also does not take the pass - as that is exactly where the orc road is being build.

We need Thuringwethil to be away often enough for Sauron o make his tub of evil without her noticing and we need her realy, realy livid with him. Her having to face the consequences of his negligence and being left out of his new project at the same time - as such having to pay the price but not sharing in the gains - is what makes her feel used and betrayed. And her role as a regular messenger to Morgoth has to be established this season also, otherwise Luthien in her diguise will arouse suspicion.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
We do need a strong motivation for Beren to leave Dorthonion - his home he defended with so much commitment so far - especially as both the montains that he crosses as also the plain between them an Doriath are about the worst possible places ever to cross. So he must be driven by something even worse behind him. He also does not take the pass - as that is exactly where the orc road is being build.
......his dead family and friends, surely? He is looking for Gorgol. He is driven and motivated. It's a very clear direct motivation with a clear example of what success looks like in his mind. I really think that's the best, strongest motivating factor for leaving. I thought that was a given, sorry if I misunderstood.

We need Thuringwethil to be away often enough for Sauron o make his tub of evil without her noticing and we need her realy, realy livid with him. Her having to face the consequences of his negligence and being left out of his new project at the same time - as such having to pay the price but not sharing in the gains - is what makes her feel used and betrayed. And her role as a regular messenger to Morgoth has to be established this season also, otherwise Luthien in her diguise will arouse suspicion.
Yeah, I agree we can explain she is coming and going but I don't think we need to show Morgoth is my point. I also don't get the impression Thuringwethil would just be hanging round Tol Sirion. She is the aerial scout. I feel it wouldn't be odd to not see her for extended periods. I doubt the audience would see a scene with Sauron and think 'why isn't Thuringwethil there.' I don't think it has to be so explicit that we always show where she is and what she's up to. She has that mysterious nature already established.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
......his dead family and friends, surely? He is looking for Gorgol. He is driven and motivated. It's a very clear direct motivation with a clear example of what success looks like in his mind. I really think that's the best, strongest motivating factor for leaving. I thought that was a given, sorry if I misunderstood.
Then Beren should go North-West and not South. The montains are full of horror and the plain is poisoned by Ungoliant's offsping to a degree of orcs themselves not going there. So Gorgol would not go there either.
 
Last edited:

Rob Harding

Active Member
Why would he go North West? I think if he follows tracks South then he goes South. If Sauron is trying to claim the land and sending out troops to build outposts then they that's where they go. Doesn't mean he doesn't find orcs skeletons plastering spider holes etc.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Why would he go North West? I think if he follows tracks South then he goes South. If Sauron is trying to claim the land and sending out troops to build outposts then they that's where they go. Doesn't mean he doesn't find orcs skeletons plastering spider holes etc.
Dorthonion is North of the montains. Why would Gorgol go South, if he even made it though the montains and the plain he would be just shoot down by the Sindar?
 
Last edited:
Top