Session 6-04: Villains

Odola

Well-Known Member
Why would he go North West?
Because Gorgol should be returning to Sauron after accomplishing a mission and the fastest way to reach Sirion Valley would be North-West. If he were on a spy mission to Doriath (e.g. to capture some Doriathian border gards for interrogation) he would not draw attention to himself by involving himself in a massacre in Dorthonion.

I think if he follows tracks South then he goes South. If Sauron is trying to claim the land and sending out troops to build outposts then they that's where they go. Doesn't mean he doesn't find orcs skeletons plastering spider holes etc.
If there are any tracks to the South this would need an own backstory and an elaborate explanation. The orc road from the pass down is being build exactly to avoid this area and to bypass it from the West as there is nothing there but poison and spiders. The only reason for Gorgol to go through there would be if he were to defect to Thingol, but that is not reasonable to assume.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
Because Gorgol should be returning to Sauron after accomplishing a mission and the fastest way to reach Sirion Valley would be North-West. If he were on a spy mission to Doriath (e.g. to capture some Doriathian border gards for investigation) he would not draw attention to himself by involving himself in a massacre in Dorthonion.



If there are any tracks to the South this would need an own backstory and an elaborate explanation. The orc road from the pass down is being build exactly to avoid this area and to bypass it from the West as there is nothing there but poison and spiders. The only reason for Gorgol to go through there would be if he were to defect to Thingol, but that is not reasonable to assume.
This is all why I was suggesting taking hold of the land. No reason Gorgol would have to return. If we suggest Sauron is trying to build a powerbase in the lands surrounding the elvish strongholds without encroaching to far then it makes sense orcs are moving around and he is following them. I mean, in the text Beren tracks Gorgol for vengence and winds up in Doriath. It's the story as laid out. I don't think it needs much overcomplicating with orcs having set roads. Sure, the lands are dangerous and you can show that but I think it's a protracted montage at best. We haven't got a lot of time this season to spend much on these early events.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
This is all why I was suggesting taking hold of the land. No reason Gorgol would have to return. If we suggest Sauron is trying to build a powerbase in the lands surrounding the elvish strongholds without encroaching to far then it makes sense orcs are moving around and he is following them. I mean, in the text Beren tracks Gorgol for vengence and winds up in Doriath. It's the story as laid out. I don't think it needs much overcomplicating with orcs having set roads. Sure, the lands are dangerous and you can show that but I think it's a protracted montage at best. We haven't got a lot of time this season to spend much on these early events.
Taking Nan Dungortheb itself? That would need an army and some very strong magic to turn it into anything usefull. Still no way the tracks would lead Beren into Doriath.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Well I think that would be after killing Gorgol and he just wanders in the wild. I mean, regardless, he has to end up there. And it is south of him. So he does goes South.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Well I think that would be after killing Gorgol and he just wanders in the wild. I mean, regardless, he has to end up there. And it is south of him. So he does goes South.
So you would have Beren kill Gorgol in Nan Dungortheb? After already having crossed Ered Gorgoroth? Still Gorgol needs a valid reason to go to Nan Dungortheb as this not a obvious place to go for an orc.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Didn’t you discuss mining ore before? Ok what if the orcs are establishing tunnels and perhaps mines in the Gorgoroth range? Beren follows Gorgol there, kills him, but has to flee, but gets lost and ends up in Nan Dungortheb (which he of course tries to get out of) through a tunnel.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Didn’t you discuss mining ore before? Ok what if the orcs are establishing tunnels and perhaps mines in the Gorgoroth range? Beren follows Gorgol there, kills him, but has to flee, but gets lost and ends up in Nan Dungortheb (which he of course tries to get out of) through a tunnel.
Could work as is told that he was the only one of the good guys to ever cross it and that he never ever told anyone anything about it. But the ore idea has been dismissed?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Could work as is told that he was the only one of the good guys to ever cross it and that he never ever told anyone anything about it. But the ore idea has been dismissed?
Was it dismissed? By the execs? Sorry I’m not up to speed….
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I believe the orcs are going to fortify their conquest.they build roads so they'll also have to at last build watchtowers and i believe they would certainly put up steady and somewhat fortified warcamps. Nan Dungortheb is a bad idea... it serves as a deadzone between Dorthonion and Doriath... elves do not go there but neither would Orcs if they don't have to...
The spiders are everybody's enemy, they are free agents, not their allies.

Showing the orcs do something to the land is a good idea.have a scene where they build a road, harass the herds, destroy old settlements -maybe for stones yes, have them hew down entire forests -but in the background of the story, to make their occupation of Dorthonion more realistic.It is not a central thing, it is not major part of the story. It is just useful to better i,agine the surroundings of what and how exactly Barahirs band and later Beren are fighting.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Was it dismissed? By the execs? Sorry I’m not up to speed….
During the discussions here, @MithLuin explained that the interest in Dorthonion is strategical and not in its resources, so that extracting both ore or wood would done only on the side and more as a means to destroy or corrupt the land than anything else. And you cannot corrupt Ered Gorgoroth more than it already is?
I don't think the topic of ore was ever discussed. They were more focused on the "tub of evil".
It was. As I have brought it up here in this thread. ;-) I have even linked a paper showing that there is ore in the Altai, which is our location for Dorthonion. But the idea has not been met with much enthusiasm.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
During the discussions here, @MithLuin explained that the interest in Dorthonion is strategical and not in its resources, so that extracting both ore or wood would done only on the side and more as a means to destroy or corrupt the land than anything else. And you cannot corrupt Ered Gorgoroth more than it already is?


It was. As I have brought it up here in this thread. ;-) I have even linked a paper showing that there is ore in the Altai, which is our location for Dorthonion. But the idea has not been met with much enthusiasm.
Ok so it’s not a central thing. They could still delve into the mountains and make tunnels. I don’t see the problem.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Altai is the FILMING location for the Dorthonion set! It's not like we said Dorthonion is the Altai.Of course there could be mines Barahir could attack ...but why do that? That is where orcs would be safe... if attack,them then at best on the road when they're outside their comfortzones...
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I don’t think a story thread about mining is particularly appealing, but as part of the background and as a way to help forwarding the main story, why not?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
The Altai? Did you check the Sets section? I believe we have made other decisions on the matter, back in something like season 3.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Altai is the FILMING location for the Dorthonion set! It's not like we said Dorthonion is the Altai.Of courae there could be mines Barahir could attack ...but why do that? That is where orcs would be safe... if attack,tzemmthen at best onmthe riad when they're outside their comfortzones...
Yes, but there are locations where ore is likely to be found geologically and some where it is not. Those have a certain look about it. As I am not a geologist the easiest way to check if the given resource is at all likely to be present at a certain kind of location is to check if it does.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I can’t listen to the sets decisions episode for season three now but I find that Ered Gorgoroth are to be filmed in the Dolomites. Several scenes have been shot already, it seems.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I can’t listen to the sets decisions episode for season three now but I find that Ered Gorgoroth are to be filmed in the Dolomites. Several scenes have been shot already, it seems.
But hey, Altai looks great.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The Altai? Did you check the Sets section? I believe we have made other decisions on the matter, back in something like season 3.
Here you have it. We were talking about iron ore in Dorthonion. Ered Gorgoroth have not yet been mentioned much. Only on the context of what makes Beren leave Dorthonion and cross them. If Beren does it following Gorgol then Gorgol had to be crossing them before Beren - for what reason?

We set Dorthonion in the Altai. And for Tarn Aeluin we picked a lake in Snowdonia, Wales. So, we do have a range to work with.

'What are the orcs doing in Dorthonion?' is a good question. At the very least, they are holding the territory to prevent Elves or Men from retaking the territory. Barahir and his band are the only ones challenging them at the moment.
Here it is.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Here you have it. We were talking about iron ore in Dorthonion. Ered Gorgoroth have not yet been mentioned much. Only on the context of what makes Beren leave Dorthonion and cross them. If Beren does it following Gorgol then Gorgol had to be crossing them before Beren - for what reason?


Here it is.
I found it now, Altai was chosen in season four.
 
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