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Session 6-05: Glaurung and Nargothrond

What does that look like, to your thinking?

Hmmm. That is indeed difficult, as we have ruled out the Doriath attack. So spiritual struggle with Morgoth himself is also out of question, it seems. So what is left are spiders or some internal policy matters. He has little oportunity to prove himself to the audience, always hiding behind his wife's girdle. But to reduce one of the three most revered elves ever to a mere jerk does not cut it either.

How about him being totally commited to the Sindar - his people? Trying to make up for the couple of centuries he abandoned them for when enchanted by Melian? Maybe his distancing himself from Melian is based on him not wanting to get her in between him and his people again?
 
Hmmm. That is indeed difficult, as we have ruled out the Doriath attack. So spiritual struggle with Morgoth himself is also out of question, it seems. So what is left are spiders or some internal policy matters. He has little oportunity to prove himself to the audience, always hiding behind his wife's girdle. But to reduce one of the three most revered elves ever to a mere jerk does not cut it either.

How about him being totally commited to the Sindar - his people? Trying to make up for the couple of centuries he abandoned them for when enchanted by Melian? Maybe his distancing himself from Melian is based on him not wanting to get her in between him and his people again?

Totally committed to the Sindar people tracks with his story thus far. I don't think he sees Melian as some kind of obstacle in that sense though, and it has certainly not been depicted that way in the past three seasons. It would be a bit weird to do so now.

I think one of the main things that will redeem him is making sure that at least some of his motivation comes from legitimate concern for his daughter.

I have to push back on the idea that this is made any more difficult by cutting the attack on Doriath. Being a competent warrior or commander does not make one any more moral an individual. As Yoda says, "War does not make one great."
 
@Odola
On Dior's nature:
Well i agree with you that by formal logic that is the way it SHOULD be.But in the story it just clearly ISN'T and i guess we'll have to play that way...
 
I also think Thingcol works fine this way as Nick stated.It would have been a nice twist to give him a bit more of a reason to be concerned and under stress, but the Doriath attack is not necessary for that.
 
Totally committed to the Sindar people tracks with his story thus far. I don't think he sees Melian as some kind of obstacle in that sense though, and it has certainly not been depicted that way in the past three seasons. It would be a bit weird to do so now.

But the story requires him to ignore Melian's warnings more and more? So some alienation does need to occur, or not?

I think one of the main things that will redeem him is making sure that at least some of his motivation comes from legitimate concern for his daughter.

But this would require him to follow her or to send some significant forces to resque her. Does he has this option in our story?

I have to push back on the idea that this is made any more difficult by cutting the attack on Doriath. Being a competent warrior or commander does not make one any more moral an individual. As Yoda says, "War does not make one great."

Not necessary, but it does shows a "hero" in a heroic context. Sacrifice of own blood, a good commander whom his people trust and depend on - all of that is easy to show in a military conflict/battle context. How could Thingol be a "hero" without it? Difficult. Is his giving up on pursuing Luthien to be able to protect Doriath his sacrifice? Also problematic.
 
@Odola
On Dior's nature:
Well i agree with you that by formal logic that is the way it SHOULD be.But in the story it just clearly ISN'T and i guess we'll have to play that way...

Still, it needs an logical explanation in our story why it does not follow that formal logic. So we do need a reason why Dior decides to follow Thingol over his more naturally expected "career path". And this would be very difficult to do if all we know about Thingol is that he is a jerk.

But "love for Sindar" works. If Thingol manages to instill this love in the heart of his grandson, Dior's becoming his follower becomes understandable.
 
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No it doesn't i am afraid. We simply can't put things right the way we think it should be with the given material we have. As far as i am on your side that it is tempting to find conclusions and solutions inworld, as far we should stay away from the temptation to out-Tolkien Tolkien on his own turf.It won't help the story and it isn't necessary, probably it could even be fatal for it to open Pandora's box.

That doesn't mean we cannot tell Dior's story when it comes to it and maybe expand on it if we feel it is necessary at some point.
 
No it doesn't i am afraid. We simply can't put things right the way we think it should be with the given material we have.

? Are we not changing the story to make it internally coherant already at many places?

As far as i am on your side that it is tempting to find conclusions and solutions inworld, as far we should stay away from the temptation to out-Tolkien Tolkien on his own turf.It won't help the story and it isn't necessary, probably it could even be fatal for it to open Pandora's box.

? Where do I suggest this? Thingol is the ultimate elven king in Tolkien. We should not let the audience forget it in our jerkification of him.

That doesn't mean we cannot tell Dior's story when it comes to it and maybe expand on it if we feel it is necessary at some point.

Yes, but Dior's story is to be Thingol's heir. If we do not get Thingol right, we will not get Dior right.
 
I don't see so far that there have been any significant changes to Thingol. He IS quite an elf-superiorist, almost racist in the books, he is really aloft and arrogant. I'm gonna wait and see how the writers play him out... so far i was quite very okay with him, but... even a nice guy may take some serious turns when it comes to his daughter! And then... he really is unfair with the dwarves at some point.He hasn't been so far, he was very okay with all of them as far as i could see.
 
I don't see so far that there have been any significant changes to Thingol. He IS quite an elf-superiorist, almost racist in the books, he is really aloft and arrogant. I'm gonna wait and see how the writers play him out... so far i was quite very okay with him, but... even a nice guy may take some serious turns when it comes to his daughter! And then... he really is unfair with the dwarves at some point.He hasn't been so far, he was very okay with all of them as far as i could see.

Yes, but as you say he does to be full of cruel disregard and contempt towards a famous human noble refugee, tyranical towards his own daughter, cold and dismissive towards his wife, unwise in his decissions to get himself involved with the Silmarils, far too fond of jewels, and unfair to the dwarves. So we would need his main good quality - his love for his people - to shine brightly and pure to outweight all of this.
 
Concerning Dior and the House of Bëor:

The House of Bëor goes into a diaspora situation at the Dagor Bragollach. They flee Ladros, and the refugees travel to Brethil (and later Dor-lómin). In time, these refugees would go from being 'foreign guests' to being members of those people. Those living in the Forest of Brethil would be under the rule of Haleth's heir, and those living in Dor-lómin would follow Hador's heir (at this time, Galdor).

Barahir is thus the last chieftain or ruler or lord of the House of Bëor. He was Lord of Ladros...but thanks to Glaurung, Ladros is a desolate ruin. Beren, his son and heir apparent, never claims that title or role. He abandons Dorthonion and lives as a loner (or with Lúthien) for the remainder of his days. He never 'reconnects' with his people. The only instance in which he claims that inheritance is...when he goes to Finrod with his father's ring. That is his claim to authority, not among his own people, but to the elves. Finrod acknowledges Beren as Barahir's Heir when he agrees to undertake the quest with him.

Dior is born in Ossiriand at the end of Season 6, after his parents return from the dead. There is no indication that Dior has ever travelled to Brethil or Hithlum. Nor even that he has met any other mortal humans besides his parents (though we could find ways to introduce him to them if we wanted to). So, no, it would not be a 'natural career path' for him to become leader of a scattered people from a conquered and haunted realm that he has never met. His father walked away from that path, and so there is not a 'path' for him to follow. The only connection he has to that heritage is the Ring of Barahir.

So, if we want to show Dior honoring his father and his mortal heritage from his paternal side, we should depict him wearing the Ring of Barahir. That's it. That is the beginning and the end of his responsibility in that regard. [As for his nature - Dior is indeed mortal, marrying when he reaches human maturity, not elven maturity. So it is no mystery to him or his people that he has been granted a human lifespan - his swift childhood revealed that.]

As for 'Eluchil' - obviously, this is not a surname, because Elves don't use surnames. The sobriquet means 'Heir of Thingol,' and is a reminder that he has the right to the throne of Doriath. Thingol died, leaving behind no son. His daughter Lúthien has shown no interest in ruling, and no longer lives in Doriath. So, inheritance passing through the distaff line is not that unusual, though we have established that Elves have rather unique views on inheritance, not necessarily expecting to need an heir. Dior, on the other hand does expect this - he names his sons Eluréd (Heir of Thingol) and Elurín (Remembrance of Thingol), making their roles as suitable future kings clear in their names. And, naturally, it is in honor of Thingol, which...brings us back to this season.


Concerning Thingol in Season 6:

Naturally, Thingol does present an obstacle to the marriage of Beren and Lúthien. He disapproves, and does not want his daughter to marry a mortal. Rather than flat out forbid it, he proposes the quest, basically telling Beren to 'go away'. This is already a mitigated response - he had wanted to imprison or kill Beren for entering Doriath unbidden. So, in the proclaiming of the quest, we can depict him giving a more measured response than his first impulse, just as we saw him give a more measured response to the kinslaying reveal than his first impulse. He issued the Ban, but did not declare war on the Noldor or keep Galadriel and her brothers imprisoned.

So, what should happen, is that the episode in Season 6 should have some parallels to the Episode in Season 4. Thingol is angry, he talks the dilemma over with Melian, and then he issues his decree. But...there are some changes. It's not simply a repeat of the earlier situation. His willingness to listen to Melian's counsel is reduced, and his anger over the situation should seem a bit more disproportionate. In Season 4, he has just found out that his brother and niece were murdered. His anger against the Fëanoreans over this seems very understandable. In Season 6, the borders of his land have been violated, so he is justifiably upset over this (he did ban humans from entering Doriath, after all, foreseeing it would bring about his people's doom). But now, the difference is that his daughter loves this person, and he's still treating him as an enemy. So, his anger in this situation comes across as must less justifiable.

That's okay - Thingol has hubris, and it is going to bring about his downfall. Failing to listen to his very wise wife is the root of his problems, and we can show that without destroying his character. Quick, unreasonable actions aren't great leadership. We don't need to frantically polish up his character to preserve his reputation - people can see the flaws for what they are.

What we want to do is to contextualize his decisions so that they don't come across as needlessly cruel or completely unreasonable. He is going to imprison his own daughter. That...is not a good look. But if we depict his very real fear for her life and safety and well-being as the motivation for that decision, he comes across as an overprotective father, not a deliberately cruel and unfeeling father. Same with his decision to put a stipulation on his daughter's marriage - the quest can be portrayed as his answer to the dilemma he is placed in. It gets Beren out of Doriath as quickly as possible, without directly causing any harm to him. Thingol supposes his hands are clean, and his land and family are safe. He is trying...though as Melian will be quick to point out, he's not as clever as he thinks, and trying to control this situation will not end how he wants it to. It is okay if the audience judges him to be a jerk. It would not be okay if the audience views him as completely racist and unreasonable as well as being a jerk.

The best chance of reconciliation comes when Beren and Lúthien return. Beren declares the Quest fulfilled, but, well, he didn't exactly bring the silmaril back with him. Thingol chooses to accept this as his conditions being met, and welcomes Beren as a son-in-law who may now live in Doriath. That is...a significant change from their first meeting. So...something has happened in the interim. Thingol has gone through some things that have taught him that his first response was too rash. What? He lost Lúthien. Lúthien left Doriath, left the safety of the land where she has lived since the end of Season 3, and marched directly into danger - facing Sauron, Carcaroth, and Morgoth (okay, and not to mention the sons of Fëanor, who also have an interest in the brideprice Thingol named....) Thingol's time bereft of his daughter and fearing for her safety has obviously mellowed him...which means he has taken the time to reconsider, and recognize his own role in what is happening. Perhaps a 'you were right/I told you so' conversation with Melian, where he just wants his child back, and for everyone to live happily will show a bit of humility on his part, and make him understandable as a father, not just a king.

We will have future opportunities to mitigate the harshness of his character with the fostering of Túrin...but he is going to end his life alone, being slain by dwarves he was treating maybe-less-than-fairly (depending on which version of that story we follow). At the end of the day, he is a jerk, but it's okay if his death is viewed as a tragic end of his life, with might-have-been possibilities glimpsed by the audience of how he could have gone differently.
 
Concerning Dior and the House of Bëor:

The House of Bëor goes into a diaspora situation at the Dagor Bragollach. They flee Ladros, and the refugees travel to Brethil (and later Dor-lómin). In time, these refugees would go from being 'foreign guests' to being members of those people. Those living in the Forest of Brethil would be under the rule of Haleth's heir, and those living in Dor-lómin would follow Hador's heir (at this time, Galdor).

It there time for that process to complete? Such a process would need at least 1,5 full human generations. If we go with the 30 years for the duration of one generation (which is not a human livespan - a generation span is the time when a certain cohort of people dominates a culture before younger people take over) so we would need at least 50 years for the younger ones to get intergrated and identify fully with their adoptive tribes. Do we have this time here? - Otherwise it is not believable.

And how can Beren claim the ring (not only as a pretty heirlom but also) with the allegiance connected to it and not claim his father's position at the same time? The ring was given to Barahir as token and a reward for a deed he did personally, if Beren abandons Barahir's heritage, duties and obligations he has no right to any favours connected to a position which he does not claim. - It simply does not add up imho.
 
Brief comment on timeline (with the understanding that the end of the First Age has a rather murky timeline in Tolkien's work, and we have not made all the decisions concerning that at this time).
FA 455 - Dagor Bragollach
FA 470 - Birth of Dior
FA 503 - Dior moves his family to Doriath.
So, yes, roughly 50 years have passed from the destruction of Ladros in the Dagor Bragollach to the decision of Dior to claim the throne of his grandfather Thingol. The children of the diaspora have grown to adulthood, married, had children of their own...who have likewise grown to adulthood and married. Túrin is older than Dior. They marry at roughly the same time.... Also, 'reclaiming Ladros' is never on the table. 'Reconquering Dor-lómin' isn't even on the table, since that land has also fallen, post-Nirnaeth. The Men of Beleriand are about to enter into the 're-establish themselves at the Havens of Sirion' stage of things. The refugees of Doriath do go there, so Dior likely has had good relations with Círdan prior to this.

Whether or not that amount of time has passed, though, neither Barahir nor Beren nor Dior ever join the refugees in Brethil or Dor-lómin. So they are not part of that process, and they are no longer acting as lords of their people. Barahir is the leader of a band of outlaws after the attack on Ladros. Beren is following in his footsteps, but cannot take leadership of a band that is now all dead. Rían and Morwen were children when the attack happened; they are well aware that they are from the House of Bëor, but they naturally have joined their husbands' people. Their fathers were with Barahir's outlaw band; they have not seen them since childhood. While Dior could conceivably view himself as a lord-in-exile of a dispersed people...he does not have an innate responsibility to reclaim a conquered ancestral land and relocate his people back to there. No one expects this of him.

In other words, there is no opportunity in the story for Dior to do much of anything with his mortal heritage. So, his failure to do so is not a rejection of that heritage. He grew up on Tol Galen in southern Ossiriand, very far removed from everything in Beleriand. The death of Thingol is what recalls him to Doriath. There is no comparable event that recalls him to lead the House of Bëor. But, naturally, we will have plenty of opportunity to discuss Dior's storyline in later seasons. In Season 6, he likely appears as a baby during the ending montage of the finale episode. What matters for now is how we depict Thingol. Let's focus on that.





What has to happen in Doriath from Lúthien's departure until the return of Beren-Onehand and Lúthien:

1) Daeron looks for Lúthien but does not find her
2) News arrives from Nargothrond that Lúthien is there and Celegorm Son of Fëanor would like to marry her.
3) News arrives from released prisoners in Tol Sirion that Lúthien brought down the tower and defeated Sauron
4) News arrives from Nargothrond that the place is under new management and Celegorm no longer resides there.
5) No further news about Lúthien's whereabouts.

I think that the way Thingol deals with the news of Lúthien's escape from his own imprisonment (for her own benefit, naturally) and then the way that he deals with news of the Sons of Fëanor demanding her hand in marriage could really show the shape of his concern and how he misses his daughter. He really is worried about her, and that should be clear in scenes where he is 'helplessly' receiving news of where she has gone and what she has done. She's not a child, and he wouldn't typically order her around like this. Watching that approach backfire so spectacularly is going to cause some self-examination on the part of the king. And the situation with the Fëanoreans is a good opportunity for Melian to say that, well, you are the one who named the silmaril as her bride-price. You can't be too surprised that the Sons of Fëanor took interest..... Thingol's gradual realization of his responsibility for what has been set in motion would make him figure out that if he had accepted Beren at first, Beren and Lúthien would be safe and happy and with him in Doriath right now. The fact that they are not is because...Lúthien wasn't going to let Beren take on the quest on his own. And Thingol set the quest. Ergo....
 
We do not know how many human generations they would need.We have to remember these are not yet fully spellt out monarchies, they come from meritocratic great-man traditions.The refugees become members of the other houses, are integrated to their tribe.They already ARE intermarried.This is totally believable to have happened within one generation as the tribes are already had been closely related by marriage before and their noble hozses have joined.No problem.A Dior showing up and suddenly claiming any heritage over these very people, that would be unbelievable and quite absurd.

In everything else i fully agree with Mithluin. Barahirs Ring... Thingol acknowledges Berens child as member of his family.Also no problem.Taking the ring wouldn't make him Finrod's liege as Finrod is dead.He has no obligations to his successor because of the ring.
 
We do not know how many human generations they would need.We have to remember these are not yet fully spellt out monarchies, they come from meritocratic great-man traditions.The refugees become members of the other houses, are integrated to their tribe.They already ARE intermarried.This is totally believable to have happened within one generation as the tribes are already had been closely related by marriage before and their noble hozses have joined.No problem.A Dior showing up and suddenly claiming any heritage over these very people, that would be unbelievable and quite absurd.

Oral "great men" tribal traditions are quite reliable. Tribal people tend to be proud and have long memories and can often recite "king lists" of their leaders of several centuries by heart. Nobody would be surprised at Dior's claim among the humans and most would feel betrayed that he has simply forgotten them and his duty towards them, even if not as a leader (he might be required to prove himself first) then as one of the great men of his clan. Integration in another tribes does take time, not just a few years. There are some people still living who remember meeting small Beren in Ladros. Seeing Beren's son return would be a surpise to no one, especially in a refugee context when so many families have been dispersed and are reuniting at most unexpected times. Nothing absurd about it. Give them 70 years more, then maybe it becomes absurd. But not in the short time that has passed. To the contrary.

In everything else i fully agree with Mithluin. Barahirs Ring... Thingol acknowledges Berens child as member of his family.Also no problem.Taking the ring wouldn't make him Finrod's liege as Finrod is dead.He has no obligations to his successor because of the ring.

That is an interessting question! Actually if Dior does not wear it, but just keeps it as a souvenir, then not maybe not. But still, due to Finrod and his companion having sacrificed themselves for his father in Sauron dungeon's in the manner that they did, Dior should be obliged to loyalty and help towards Finrod's successors, actually. There is no way he could be not.

I think that the way Thingol deals with the news of Lúthien's escape from his own imprisonment (for her own benefit, naturally) and then the way that he deals with news of the Sons of Fëanor demanding her hand in marriage could really show the shape of his concern and how he misses his daughter. He really is worried about her, and that should be clear in scenes where he is 'helplessly' receiving news of where she has gone and what she has done. She's not a child, and he wouldn't typically order her around like this. Watching that approach backfire so spectacularly is going to cause some self-examination on the part of the king. And the situation with the Fëanoreans is a good opportunity for Melian to say that, well, you are the one who named the silmaril as her bride-price. You can't be too surprised that the Sons of Fëanor took interest..... Thingol's gradual realization of his responsibility for what has been set in motion would make him figure out that if he had accepted Beren at first, Beren and Lúthien would be safe and happy and with him in Doriath right now. The fact that they are not is because...Lúthien wasn't going to let Beren take on the quest on his own. And Thingol set the quest. Ergo....

I still can not understand how we can convey Thingol really caring about his daughter and not sending his best special forces after her. General situation very unstable, refugees everywhere, lawlesness abounds, lands around being taken over by the enemy, spiders roaming about nearby, Noldor not to be trusted and he treads that as if she has gone on a school exchange trip?
 
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I still can understand how we can convey Thingol really caring about his daughter and not sending his best special forces after her. General situation very unstable, refugees everywhere, lawlesness abounds, lands around being taken over by the enemy, spiders roaming about nearby, Noldor not to be trusted and he treads that as if she has gone on a school exchage trip?
What special forces? All they have is Beleg and Mablung.
 
What special forces? All they have is Beleg and Mablung.
The greatest Sindar kingdom ever and they have no special units? Bordering with evil spiders country? We might only know Beleg and Mablung by name but there have to be some others? Are there only 20 elves living in Doriath or several thousands?
 
What special forces? All they have is Beleg and Mablung.

That's certainly not the way it comes across in the text or our adaptation. Our Beleg and Mablung are leaders of substantial numbers of fighters.
Oral "great men" tribal traditions are quite reliable. Tribal people tend to be proud and have long memories and can often recite "king lists" of their leader of several centuries by heart. Nobody would be surprised at Dior's claim among the humans and most would feel betrayed that he has simply forgotten them and his duty towards them, even if not as a leader (he might be required to prove himself first) then as one of the great men of his clan. Intergation in another tribes does take time, not just a few years. There are some people still living who remember meeting small Beren in Ladros. Seeing Beren's son return would be a surpise to no one, especially in a refugee context when so many families have been dispersed and are reuniting at most unexpected times. Nothing absurd about it. Give them 70 years more, then maybe it becames absurd. But not in the short time that has passed. To the contrary.



That is an interessting question! Actually if Dior does not wear it, but just keeps it as a souvenir, then not maybe not. But still, due to Finrod and his companion having sacrificed themselves for his father in Sauron dungeon's in the manner that they did, Dior should be obliged to loyalty and help towards Finrod's successors, actually. There is no way he could be not.



I still can understand how we can convey Thingol really caring about his daughter and not sending his best special forces after her. General situation very unstable, refugees everywhere, lawlesness abounds, lands around being taken over by the enemy, spiders roaming about nearby, Noldor not to be trusted and he treads that as if she has gone on a school exchage trip?

I think it is fair to suggest that during the times that Luthien's location is unknown, having Beleg and/or Mablung abroad with teams of soldiers out looking for her is the right move. And open war with Nargothrond when she is held there should at least be on the table.
 
That's certainly not the way it comes across in the text or our adaptation. Our Beleg and Mablung are leaders of substantial numbers of fighters.


I think it is fair to suggest that during the times that Luthien's location is unknown, having Beleg and/or Mablung abroad with teams of soldiers out looking for her is the right move. And open war with Nargothrond when she is held there should at least be on the table.

If we want to stress the point of Thingol being worried sick about his daughter's safety we could show his first impulse to be to lead the search party himself - he would be then convinced otherwise by his advisors - that it is important for his people that he does not leave himself - so his love for his people takes precendence even over his private love for his daughter. Would show him torn between loyalities and add a little drama. Would also be a nice foil for Finrod actually leaving his kingdom because of his loyalty to Barahir's son.
 
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