Session 6-05: Glaurung and Nargothrond

[Haerangil]

I don't see that. Great man tradition and generations i have a different opinion on, especially if the remains of a tribe got adopted into another tribe already, theres no easy way back once it is done. Finrod's sucessors too as he has no direct heirs.Then all obligations died with him.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

If we want to stress the point of Thingol being worried sick about his daughter's safety we could show his first impulse to be to lead the search party himself - he would be then convinced otherwise by his advisors - that it is important for his people that he does not leave himself - so his love for his people takes precendence even over his private love for his daughter. Would show him torn between loyalities and add a little drama. Would also be a nice foil for Finrod actually leaving his kingdom because of his loyalty to Barahir's son.

The other difference between Finrod and Thingol's situations is one of direction. Thingol is only one person, and as such can only travel in one direction. They don't really know where Luthien is most of the time.

Finrod knows exactly where Beren's quest is headed.

 

[Odola]

I don't see that. Great man tradition and generations i have a different opinion on, especially if the remains of a tribe got adopted into another tribe already, theres no easy way back once it is done.

Adoption would only work if:
- all the House of Beor orphans get adopted in the families of other Houses,
- all the mothers with little boys remarried and their new husbands adopted all the House of Beor boys replacing their father's names
or
- if their fathers-in-law adopted them after they grow up and marry at the time of their marriage to the daughters from other Houses.
It would not take place at all if a House of Beor boy would mary a House of Beor girl.

And not all older House of Beor people have yet died off, those are too old to be adopted anyway.
And what about middle aged unmarried people? - Those remain "unadopted" also.

A "tribal adoption" - without a new father - is always done to an adult person in some very extraordinary cicumstances.

Once adopted all the successive offsping of the adoptee belong to the new tribe - but not necessay older childen born before, who are of age already.

Adoptions always concern an individuum and never a cohort.

What could be done is that the House of Beor people explicitly reject Dior as "an unnatural freak" having not been born of a "real mortal woman" - understood as a woman whose maternal lineage goes back to some legendary "Mothers of Men" - (not being a "Daughter of Eve" - using Lewis' terms).

Then, such rejected and offended, he would accept Thingol's legacy. But still his obligation to try his fathers people first when he comes of age is clear and cannot be dismissed (at that time Thingol is still in office and the House of Beor is leaderless - Beren is forbidden to retun to them as a resurrected being - but Dior is available). He has not been raised in Doriath either - it is equally foreign to him.

Finrod's sucessors too as he has no direct heirs.Then all obligations died with him.

Still there are Finrod's companions who still might have relatives around. And Finrod's nephew and grand-nephew are a succesors kin enough to inherit this obligaton. Actually this might be the reason why Elrond does serve under Gil-Galad.

As for 'Eluchil' - obviously, this is not a surname, because Elves don't use surnames. The sobriquet means 'Heir of Thingol,' and is a reminder that he has the right to the throne of Doriath. Thingol died, leaving behind no son. His daughter Lúthien has shown no interest in ruling, and no longer lives in Doriath. So, inheritance passing through the distaff line is not that unusual, though we have established that Elves have rather unique views on inheritance, not necessarily expecting to need an heir. Dior, on the other hand does expect this - he names his sons Eluréd (Heir of Thingol) and Elurín (Remembrance of Thingol), making their roles as suitable future kings clear in their names. And, naturally, it is in honor of Thingol, which...brings us back to this season.

Elves do use patronyms. And Dior's sobriquet was "the Fair" as far I do remember? Dior indeed honours Elu a lot, as such there must be something about Elu to be honoured - excactly my point. One does not name himself and own's children after a total jerk even if one inherits the throne from him. Especially as Dior named both boys this way when Thingol was still alive and well and nobody (except maybe Melian) thought his thone will ever be inherited. Dior devotion to his grandfather predates his death. When have they met, actually?

 

[Haerangil]

Why? You don't know the halethian or hadorian or beorian customs any better than we do, and we know very little. I really see no argument why the model you propose should be the only one to work.Actually i find it not very concincing at all.

On Finrod's companions relatives... i find that far-stretched.They joined Finrod because they felt loyal to Finrod.Why then should Dior be in the debt of their nephews or grandchildren?

El6chil meantnthe intention of being Elu's heir.It is not a mistake but xlearly a policy if not a destiny.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What could be done is that the House of Beor people explicitly reject Dior as "an unnatural freak" having not been born of a "real mortal woman" - understood as a woman whose maternal lineage goes back to some legendary "Mothers of Men" - (not being a "Daughter of Eve" - using Lewis' terms).

Then, such rejected and offended, he would accept Thingol's legacy. But still his obligation to try his fathers people first when he comes of age is clear and cannot be dismissed (at that time Thingol is still in office and the House of Beor is leaderless - Beren is forbidden to retun to them as a resurrected being - but Dior is available). He has not been raised in Doriath either - it is equally foreign to him.

More likely, Dior has had no contact with the House of Bëor (which doesn't truly exist in any real sense) other than his father and has had contact with the nearby (and more importantly, still extant) kingdom of Doriath.

Dior does not take up the mantle of "Lord of Ladros" because that position no longer exists. Thingol's mantle of "King of the Sindar" does exist.

This feels like a search for an answer to a question viewers will not be asking.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

And then we need to address the situation in Nargothrond. There are significant politics involved, so figuring out how and when and why each step plays out will take some careful attention. How does the usurpation go down at Nargothrond? What are Celegorm and Curufin doing there, and what happens between them and Orodreth that leads to Finrod being abandoned to his fate? Also, recall that Gil-galad's departure for Círdan's camp happens at this time, presumably because his life is threatened by the political situation.

I'd like to re-raise the suggestion of a falling out between the C-bros and Maedhros as the reason why they show up at Nargothrond. There arrival with a large, well-trained, and well-armed makes me kind of think of the arrival of Frankish crusaders at the gates of Byzantium. But since Finrod can't maintain the secrecy of Nargothrond with them camped outside, he must invite them in (he likely would anyway, but still).

How they seize power? It could be based on encouraging an attack on Minas Tirith that never materializes, maybe because of an alliance they promise with Thingol (which also never materializes).

 

[Odola]

Why? You don't know the halethian or hadorian or beorian customs any better than we do, and we know very little. I really see no argument why the model you propose should be the only one to work.Actually i find it not very concincing at all.

I am generalising what I do know about adoptions from ancient Europe, China, Egypt and Mesopotamia. Also what we know about adoptions into a tribe among Native Americans. Everywhere it is an individual, (and maybe as an "extended individual" a mother with little child/-ren), that is adopted, not a whole population. There is simple no cultural mechanism that I know of to do that. You can grant citizenship to a group of people, but you would need a state and a concept of citizenship to be able to do that. Or a king can accept a group of people among his subjects. But not on a tribal level.

On Finrod's companions relatives... i find that far-stretched.They joined Finrod because they felt loyal to Finrod.Why then should Dior be in the debt of their nephews or grandchildren?

And why would their loyalty to Finrod invalidate their own sacrifice of their very own blood and life when they have died a most horrific death just for Beren's love quest? Of course their blood binds both Beren and especially Dior - who owns his very coming into existence to their sacrifice. If they have any wives, descendants or dependants left Dior owes them big time.

El6chil meantnthe intention of being Elu's heir.It is not a mistake but xlearly a policy if not a destiny.

Dior wishes death on his grandfather while Thingol is still alive? Dior comes of age at 21 - Thingol is alive and well while the House of Beor is scattered and Beren is forbidden to join them due to having died once. Dior marries Nimloth when he is 27, lives at a waterfall in the Blue Montains, has his children, names the boys after Elu, then after 6 years when Dior is 33-34 Thingol is unexpectedly killed and Dior goes to Doriath and takes over his throne. So you say Dior has been waiting the whole time for Thingol's murder? There is no hint he has ever been to Doriath before in his live. How are his bounds to Doriath any stronger than to his father's House? How can the audience not ask questions here?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I am generalising what I do know about adoptions from ancient Europe, China, Egypt and Mesopotamia. Also what we know about adoptions into a tribe among Native Americans. Everywhere it is an individual, (and maybe as an "extended individual" a mother with little child/-ren), that is adopted, not a whole population. There is simple no cultural mechanism that I know of to do that. You can grant citizenship to a group of people, but you would need a state and a concept of citizenship to be able to do that. Or a king can accept a group of people among his subjects. But not on a tribal level.



And why would their loyalty to Finrod invalidate their own sacrifice of their very own blood and life when they have died a most horrific death just for Beren's love quest? Of course their blood binds both Beren and especially Dior - who owns his very coming into existence to their sacrifice. If they have any wives, descendants or dependants left Dior owes them big time.



Dior wishes death on his grandfather while Thingol is still alive? Dior comes of age at 21 - Thingol is alive and well while the House of Beor is scattered and Beren is forbidden to join them due to having died once. Dior marries Nimloth when he is 27, lives at a waterfall in the Blue Montains, has his children, names the boys after Elu, then after 6 years when Dior is 33-34 Thingol is unexpectedly killed and Dior goes to Doriath and takes over his throne. So you say Dior has been waiting the whole time for Thingol's murder? There is no hint he has ever been to Doriath before in his live. How are his bounds to Doriath any stronger than to his father's House? How can the audience not ask questions here?

This is all stuff we can figure out when we get to Dior's story.

 

[Odola]

This is all stuff we can figure out when we get to Dior's story.

That is true, but I still do maintain that for it to work in any way in this future story Thingol cannot be a total jerk in this one. So we have to find some ways to show Thingol as a great king and leader too, for all his faults. Which is difficult. But imho it has to be done.

 

[Haerangil]

And I am generalizing from what i read in Tolkien... neither of both houses retain any leaders on their own, no stirps regia, nothing.If they lived as guest with own leaders then i could comprehend your explanation but so i cannot see it.

Finrods retainers are different from Finrod himself.Say when i had both sided obligations to Richard Lionheart, or Arminius, and their families die out.Why then should i have obligations to Robin of Locksley just because he also had sworn fealty to Richard? I wouldn't!

When does Dior get the name Eluchil? From birth or from start of his reign?That could be a hint! If we know it...

 

[Mithrim]

I'd like to re-raise the suggestion of a falling out between the C-bros and Maedhros as the reason why they show up at Nargothrond. There arrival with a large, well-trained, and well-armed makes me kind of think of the arrival of Frankish crusaders at the gates of Byzantium. But since Finrod can't maintain the secrecy of Nargothrond with them camped outside, he must invite them in (he likely would anyway, but still).

How they seize power? It could be based on encouraging an attack on Minas Tirith that never materializes, maybe because of an alliance they promise with Thingol (which also never materializes).

When would the argument occur in your thinking?
Because the C-brothers could volunteer to help Finrod when it's revealed that the sorcerer who took Minas Tirith is Sauron. Using that as a excuse to get away from Himring.

Glaurung
Could Glaurung be partly responsible for The Evil Breath plague that makes Turin very ill and kills Lalaith?
The plague is described in the Pub!Sil as having come out of Angband, so Morgoth must have had something to do with it.
Now the connection between Glaurung and the plague, largely depends on which Vala we decide he is associated with. The session for 4:22 was leaning toward Irmo Lorien the Vala of visions and dreams. I don't know if that decision is set into stone yet.
But if we do go the Lorien route, in the UT and CoH Turin is described when sick as lying long in a fever and dark dream.
It's a very tenuous connection, but I'm trying to think of stuff Glaurung could be involved with at the end of Season Six and then throughout Season Seven.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

That is true, but I still do maintain that for it to work in any way in this future story Thingol cannot be a total jerk in this one. So we have to find some ways to show Thingol as a great king and leader too, for all his faults. Which is difficult. But imho it has to be done.

Given that nothing thus far has changed from the published Silmarillion's narrative regarding Thingol, I don't think we're in any danger the original narrative was not also in.

 

[Haerangil]

Somehow i have lost totally track!

Who again are the c-bros and why is Glaurung now involved with the Beren and Luthien story? Sorry...

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Somehow i have lost totally track!

Who again are the c-bros and why is Glaurung now involved with the Beren and Luthien story? Sorry...

The C-bros are an appellation I've been using for Celegorm and Curufin (sometimes Caranthir) for some years now.

Glaurung isn't part of the Beren and Luthien story, but he is a part of the world we're working in and was last seen taking possession of Keep Helevorn. His disposition is something we're going to have to figure out.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

The C-bros are an appellation I've been using for Celegorm and Curufin (sometimes Caranthir) for some years now.

Glaurung isn't part of the Beren and Luthien story, but he is a part of the world we're working in and was last seen taking possession of Keep Helevorn. His disposition is something we're going to have to figure out.

Plus he has a time limit for when he has to be gone from there.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

When would the argument occur in your thinking?
Because the C-brothers could volunteer to help Finrod when it's revealed that the sorcerer who took Minas Tirith is Sauron. Using that as a excuse to get away from Himring.

My thinking was to have it take place early on, a consequence of their acting against orders during the Dagor Bragollach.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Glaurung
Could Glaurung be partly responsible for The Evil Breath plague that makes Turin very ill and kills Lalaith?
The plague is described in the Pub!Sil as having come out of Angband, so Morgoth must have had something to do with it.
Now the connection between Glaurung and the plague, largely depends on which Vala we decide he is associated with. The session for 4:22 was leaning toward Irmo Lorien the Vala of visions and dreams. I don't know if that decision is set into stone yet.
But if we do go the Lorien route, in the UT and CoH Turin is described when sick as lying long in a fever and dark dream.
It's a very tenuous connection, but I'm trying to think of stuff Glaurung could be involved with at the end of Season Six and then throughout Season Seven.

That would work, but the bigger question is when would this happen? The longer we wait to do it, the stranger it seems that the Feanoreans have not done anything about his presence yet. The sooner we do it, the more we signal to the audience that Glaurung will play a role in the season arc.

One way to solve this would be to actually tell a story in East Beleriand with Glaurung as the antagonist. This of course flies in the face of Prof. Olsen's desire to minimize Glaurung's appearances in the season, but I imagine he could be convinced if a cool story presented itself.

 

[Mithrim]

That would work, but the bigger question is when would this happen? The longer we wait to do it, the stranger it seems that the Feanoreans have not done anything about his presence yet. The sooner we do it, the more we signal to the audience that Glaurung will play a role in the season arc.

One way to solve this would be to actually tell a story in East Beleriand with Glaurung as the antagonist. This of course flies in the face of Prof. Olsen's desire to minimize Glaurung's appearances in the season, but I imagine he could be convinced if a cool story presented itself.

I would be interested in a story arc in East Beleriand.
I'm uneasy at the thought of Glaurung leaving early on in the story. Because to me it would go against the theme of the villains expanding out into Beleriand.

I think Ange1e4e5s has a good idea at the start of the thread for later on in the story . Morgoth could recall Glaurung after the fall of Tol in Gaurhoth.
Why?
In my reasoning because Morgoth would recognize that Glaurung is the only one left of his servants who could go toe to toe with Melian.
Just my thoughts on your question.

Edit: Actually do you mean when the plague happens in my theory?

 

[Odola]

Morgoth could recall Glaurung after the fall of Tol in Gaurhoth.
Why?

He is the father of dragons, he needs an opportunity to become one. I am with MithLuin on that one.
And we have to establish imho that his first and foremost passion is for lying on his gold heap and dozing - as this is the life goal of each and every dragon after him. So he leaves only reluctantly.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

He is the father of dragons, he needs an opportunity to become one. I am with MithLuin on that one.
And we have to establish imho that his first and foremost passion is for lying on his gold heap and dozing - as this is the life goal of each and every dragon after him. So he leaves only reluctantly.

So at what point should it happen? He can't really be a factor in this story (at least not enough to heavily affect the plot. Could be a stinger after Caracaroth leaves Angband and wreaks havoc.