Session 6-06: Nargothrond and Doriath

[MithLuin]

I wonder if the initial interactions between Celegorm and Luthien could be genuinely friendly. He might feel like he is understood by her. She appreciates his love of living things (which is something she loves about Beren). From his perspective even if she remains in love with Beren for now, he is mortal and so Celegorm might reckon he has a chance once Beren has died even if of old age - and he must think that Beren will not survive captivity at that point anyway. She’s not necessarily going to be getting the full picture of C&C‘s usurping of the rule of Nargothrond.

On the other hand, Luthien would be well aware of the Feanorian involvement in the kin slaying and their status as persona non grata in Doriath so that would counter any initial friendliness at the beginning. Not sure how to get around that, unless Luthien is playing a peacemaker role, or can see how C&C might help her cause (Which I assume at this point is simply to rescue Beren and not to get a Silmaril).

Yes, Lúthien's initial opinion of Celegorm is something I am curious about!

Obviously, we know that he is enamored with her beauty from the moment he first sees her. So, he likely acts like an idiot 😛. Watching guys trip over themselves in the presence of a beautiful woman is amusing, but I have to imagine Lúthien is used to this type of behavior, and likely handles the situation gracefully. But that isn't likely to make her think well of him. And as soon as they exchange names, the kinslaying would come between them. So...does he conceal his name or identity? Do they tell her they are 'elves of Nargothrond' and not reveal that they are Sons of Fëanor? That level of deceit up front would definitely put a damper on any possible good will she has towards him, and then the imprisonment situation would not help!

One of the only places that Beren and Celegorm's characters overlap is in their love of animals. And, yes, she must know that about Celegorm, because she uses that to help persuade Huan of how worthy Beren is.

I doubt Lúthien has any interest in Celegorm, even of the 'nascent friendship' variety. It's possible that she sees him as a potential ally in her quest to rescue Beren at first, but quickly realizes that his dog is the true ally here. Rather, the audience should see Celegorm as a beautiful elven lord who 'looks right' with Lúthien in a way that Beren doesn't...but is arrogant enough that literally no one is rooting for them to get together. People can feel sympathetic for poor jilted Daeron...but no one is going to think that Celegorm didn't fully deserve to have his dog stolen.

I am not suggesting we portray Celegorm as the unwanted love interest in Titanic, where he kicks old ladies off life boats to prove what a jerk he is. Celegorm simply behaving in a way that makes it clear that whatever 'love' he has for Lúthien is selfish and controlling would certainly be sufficient to demonstrate how unworthy he is of her affection.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Yes, Lúthien's initial opinion of Celegorm is something I am curious about!

Obviously, we know that he is enamored with her beauty from the moment he first sees her. So, he likely acts like an idiot 😛. Watching guys trip over themselves in the presence of a beautiful woman is amusing, but I have to imagine Lúthien is used to this type of behavior, and likely handles the situation gracefully. But that isn't likely to make her think well of him. And as soon as they exchange names, the kinslaying would come between them. So...does he conceal his name or identity? Do they tell her they are 'elves of Nargothrond' and not reveal that they are Sons of Fëanor? That level of deceit up front would definitely put a damper on any possible good will she has towards him, and then the imprisonment situation would not help!

One of the only places that Beren and Celegorm's characters overlap is in their love of animals. And, yes, she must know that about Celegorm, because she uses that to help persuade Huan of how worthy Beren is.

I doubt Lúthien has any interest in Celegorm, even of the 'nascent friendship' variety. It's possible that she sees him as a potential ally in her quest to rescue Beren at first, but quickly realizes that his dog is the true ally here. Rather, the audience should see Celegorm as a beautiful elven lord who 'looks right' with Lúthien in a way that Beren doesn't...but is arrogant enough that literally no one is rooting for them to get together. People can feel sympathetic for poor jilted Daeron...but no one is going to think that Celegorm didn't fully deserve to have his dog stolen.

I am not suggesting we portray Celegorm as the unwanted love interest in Titanic, where he kicks old ladies off life boats to prove what a jerk he is. Celegorm simply behaving in a way that makes it clear that whatever 'love' he has for Lúthien is selfish and controlling would certainly be sufficient to demonstrate how unworthy he is of her affection.

As far as overlap between Celegorm and Beren, I think that might have been Tolkien's intention; both have a liking for animals and can communicate with them. However Beren doesn't kill animals unless they work for Morgoth, while Celegorm is a hunter. On the other hand, nobody in the 'audience' will think that Celegorm doesn't deserve to lose Huan's loyalty (or the loyalty of any kind of canine creature), but he won't think that way; Celegorm would likely take it as a personal insult. Note that Celegorm is the one who instigates the Second Kinslaying.

 

[Odola]

I agree that the audience should not view Thingol as simply a racist jerk who is overbearing towards his daughter. I don't think anyone intended to portray him that way in this season, so we are agreed there. We want to take him on a character arc that begins with hotheaded rash decisions but becomes more wise over the course of the season. I do not see an attack by orcs on Doriath as being relevant to this discussion of Thingol's status, but regardless, we are not including that element of the story in Silm Film. So, yes, the balance to his character will come from other directions.

I do not mind bold text. I occasionally find it helpful to use bold or italics to differentiate things or add emphasis. But it is probably good to keep in mind that some people read bold text as yelling. When there is a significant amount of bold text in a post, I presume that there is strong emotion as well. I do not wish to dismiss something that someone feels strongly about, but felt the need to explain that I did not really understand the connection you were trying to make.

No, when I do yell, I do use capslock - which I never do 😉 .

So above there in post #2 those were my propositions were proposed elements that could be used to restore that balance. Thingol being busy caring for and integrating the refuge-granted Green Elves in Doriath would give him something kingly to do and also keep him reasonably busy, allow us to him on screen doing something when we do show him and give him some good PR. Someone -regrettably I do no remember who - in the last thread brough up the Green Elves refugees and I think it is a good element to use to achieve all that.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Yes, Lúthien's initial opinion of Celegorm is something I am curious about!

Obviously, we know that he is enamored with her beauty from the moment he first sees her. So, he likely acts like an idiot 😛. Watching guys trip over themselves in the presence of a beautiful woman is amusing, but I have to imagine Lúthien is used to this type of behavior, and likely handles the situation gracefully. But that isn't likely to make her think well of him. And as soon as they exchange names, the kinslaying would come between them. So...does he conceal his name or identity? Do they tell her they are 'elves of Nargothrond' and not reveal that they are Sons of Fëanor? That level of deceit up front would definitely put a damper on any possible good will she has towards him, and then the imprisonment situation would not help!

One of the only places that Beren and Celegorm's characters overlap is in their love of animals. And, yes, she must know that about Celegorm, because she uses that to help persuade Huan of how worthy Beren is.

I doubt Lúthien has any interest in Celegorm, even of the 'nascent friendship' variety. It's possible that she sees him as a potential ally in her quest to rescue Beren at first, but quickly realizes that his dog is the true ally here. Rather, the audience should see Celegorm as a beautiful elven lord who 'looks right' with Lúthien in a way that Beren doesn't...but is arrogant enough that literally no one is rooting for them to get together. People can feel sympathetic for poor jilted Daeron...but no one is going to think that Celegorm didn't fully deserve to have his dog stolen.

I am not suggesting we portray Celegorm as the unwanted love interest in Titanic, where he kicks old ladies off life boats to prove what a jerk he is. Celegorm simply behaving in a way that makes it clear that whatever 'love' he has for Lúthien is selfish and controlling would certainly be sufficient to demonstrate how unworthy he is of her affection.

I’m thinking of the way Celegorm has been portrayed in the past as not having great people skills and being more at home with animals, and avoiding conflicts. He could be quite socially awkward around Luthien which might make her feel a bit more sympathetic than with Curufin who she should be able to see right through. So Celegorm can be totally smitten, I agree. I’m not suggesting that he and Luthien are actually friends, but I think he can be genuinely in love with her (it is Curufin who is doing the political machinations), and she can perceive this and be compassionate since she doesnt (and can’t) return his love. I think that Celegorm could be more resistant to keeping Luthien captive (so not entirely aligned with Curufin’s plan), which could be why Huan does go back to Celegorm initially. Celegorm cannot be too corrupted yet or Huan would have stayed away.

 

[Odola]

I’m thinking of the way Celegorm has been portrayed in the past as not having great people skills and being more at home with animals, and avoiding conflicts. He could be quite socially awkward around Luthien which might make her feel a bit more sympathetic than with Curufin who she should be able to see right through. So Celegorm can be totally smitten, I agree. I’m not suggesting that he and Luthien are actually friends, but I think he can be genuinely in love with her (it is Curufin who is doing the political machinations), and she can perceive this and be compassionate since she doesnt (and can’t) return his love. I think that Celegorm could be more resistant to keeping Luthien captive (so not entirely aligned with Curufin’s plan), which could be why Huan does go back to Celegorm initially. Celegorm cannot be too corrupted yet or Huan would have stayed away.

I would like a nice intelectual political discussion between Luthien and Curufin. For him she is just a pawn and a semi-wild hillbilly with a pretty face. I would like to see her holding her ground against a sophisticated, cunning, politically experienced and culturally advanced Noldo.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I would like a nice intelectual political discussion between Luthien and Curufin. For him she is just a pawn and a semi-wild hillbilly with a pretty face. I would like to see her holding her ground against a sophisticated, cunning, politically experienced and culturally advanced Noldo.

On that note, how much does Luthien know regarding politics?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I would like a nice intelectual political discussion between Luthien and Curufin. For him she is just a pawn and a semi-wild hillbilly with a pretty face. I would like to see her holding her ground against a sophisticated, cunning, politically experienced and culturally advanced Noldo.

I would think that Luthien would be too focused on getting aid for the rescue to engage in much political debate with Curufin. I can imagine very little actual interaction between these two - he is the schemer behind the scenes. Maintaining a focus on Celegorm and Luthien's interactions I think will help set up Celegorms eventual 'losing it' and trying to kill Beren and kidnapping Luthien down the track. That will need to be handled with care I think.

 

[Odola]

I would think that Luthien would be too focused on getting aid for the rescue to engage in much political debate with Curufin. I can imagine very little actual interaction between these two - he is the schemer behind the scenes. Maintaining a focus on Celegorm and Luthien's interactions I think will help set up Celegorms eventual 'losing it' and trying to kill Beren and kidnapping Luthien down the track. That will need to be handled with care I think.

Would Curufin let all the interactions with Luthien be through his socially unskilled brother? A political marriage can not be completrd only by gaining Thingol's permission. He must convince Luthien too -forst and foremost. Those are elves and she must agree. Do you think he has so little interest in the potential new addition to the family that he never has a serious talk with her? Once is enough.

About politics I would assume Luthien not being taught the details much as she was quite sheltered but having lived several millenia she remembers a lot from the tidbits she has seen and heard her parents dealing with. I assume also Melian aswering any question of her when she asked about it. Actually Luthien might be surprised herself by how much she actually knowns and understands having never consciously thought much about it.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

About politics I would assume Luthien not being taught the details much as she was quite sheltered but having lived several millenia she remembers a lot from the tidbits she has seen and heard her parents dealing with. I assume also Melian aswering any question of her when she asked about it. Actually Luthien might be surprised herself by how much she actually knowns and understands having never consciously thought much about it.

I don't think we have Luthien as being that sheltered, especially in Doriath itself. She was also in Vinyamar for the Mereth Aderthad, and Nargothrond for Galadriel's wedding. Having her fully aware of the political situation seems perfectly in keeping with her characterization thus far.

 

[Odola]

I don't think we have Luthien as being that sheltered, especially in Doriath itself. She was also in Vinyamar for the Mereth Aderthad, and Nargothrond for Galadriel's wedding. Having her fully aware of the political situation seems perfectly in keeping with her characterization thus far.

Great, so bring on the Curufin - Luthien talk. I doubt he talked to her much at the Mereth Aderthad.

 

[MithLuin]

Curufin did not attend the Mereth Aderthad in SilmFilm. Celegorm and Curufin have never met Lúthien before this season.

 

[Odola]

Curufin did not attend the Mereth Aderthad in SilmFilm. Celegorm and Curufin have never met Lúthien before this season.

Even better. As such he is curious how fast he can sway this pretty but in his view unpolished and simple Sinda.

 

[Odola]

Another question - is Gil-Galad born yet? His mother was a Sinda, she should taken care of Luthien if she were there - is she in seclusion before and after birth? Maybe she went to Cirdan's people to be in seclusion to give birth according to Sindar fashion - maybe her mother and aunts are there? Or maybe she finds the presence of the Feanorians to stressfull and repulsive and leaves with little boy - how old is he now? Does she and Orodreth quarrell about the Feanorians being there? Is Finduilas here as a young maiden as her mother's deputy to help her father who cannot follow his wife? Finduilas could get close to Luthien and be impressed by her daring to love a mortal?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Another question - is Gil-Galad born yet? His mother was a Sinda, she should taken care of Luthien if she were there - is she in seclusion before and after birth? Maybe she went to Cirdan's people to be in seclusion to give birth according to Sindar fashion - maybe her mother and aunts are there? Is Finduilas here as a young maiden as her mother's deputy to help him? She could get close to Luthien and be impressed by her daring to love a mortal?

He can't be born later than about Season 8, since that's when The Children of Húrin season is appearing to line up and Orodreth is killed in that battle.

 

[Odola]

He can't be born later than about Season 8, since that's when The Children of Húrin season is appearing to line up and Orodreth is killed in that battle.

So here is a good reason to have Orodreth's wife leave. If she pregnant and cannot stand the Feanorians and the stress they create she can go into seclusion to her kin leaving her young daughter behind to help her father and uncle, as Finrod has no queen. But Finduilas should be there, as she cannot be a small child anymore, otherwise she would be one still when Turin is there.

Edit - maybe Orodreth planned to go there with her for the pregnacy and birth but with the Feanorians around he feels his duty is to stand by his uncle and support him? His wife might either support his decission or be outraged at her husband and her adolescent daughter - this would be a reason why she does not return when Gil-Galad gets old enough to travel?

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, Gil-galad is born already. Post- Dagor Bragollach is a 'time of war', so moratorium on weddings and births at the moment. Our rule was to finish up with necessary elf babies prior to the story of Aegnor and Andreth, because we did not want his reservations to seem contrived or fake.

Orodreth and Meril meet at the Mereth Aderthad and marry shortly thereafter. Their daughter Finduilas appears as a young child in the ending montages of the Season 4 finale. Gil-galad's childhood is not depicted or called out at any point, but he is presumably born sometime early in Season 5.

Gil-galad first appears as a minor background character at Minas Tirith, fully grown, in Season 5. In Season 6, he will be retreating from Tol Sirion to Nargothrond with the rest of his family after Sauron's attack. His involvement with the Orodreth vs Curufin power struggle will result in his fleeing to the Havens with Círdan because he is in fear of his life.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Now how do Celegorm and Curufin gain so much power in Nargothrond? My suggestion would be saving the refugees of Minas Tirith (particularly Orodreth and his family) and escorting them to Nargothond.

 

[Odola]

Yes, Gil-galad is born already. Post- Dagor Bragollach is a 'time of war', so moratorium on weddings and births at the moment. Our rule was to finish up with necessary elf babies prior to the story of Aegnor and Andreth, because we did not want his reservations to seem contrived or fake.

Orodreth and Meril meet at the Mereth Aderthad and marry shortly thereafter. Their daughter Finduilas appears as a young child in the ending montages of the Season 4 finale. Gil-galad's childhood is not depicted or called out at any point, but he is presumably born sometime early in Season 5.

Gil-galad first appears as a minor background character at Minas Tirith, fully grown, in Season 5. In Season 6, he will be retreating from Tol Sirion to Nargothrond with the rest of his family after Sauron's attack. His involvement with the Orodreth vs Curufin power struggle will result in his fleeing to the Havens with Círdan because he is in fear of his life.

O.k. Does he take his mother with him? As a Sinda she might resent the Feanorians. And what is the relationship between Finduilas and Luthien? Luthien is much older. Does Finduilas idolise her a bit?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

O.k. Does he take his mother with him? As a Sinda she might resent the Feanorians. And what is the relationship between Finduilas and Luthien? Luthien is much older. Does Finduilas idolise her a bit?

Depends on how much interaction they have.

 

[MithLuin]

Meril would have had the opportunity to meet Lúthien at Galadriel's wedding in Nargothrond, or possibly at the Mereth Aderthad. So, yes, a Sinda who looks up to Lúthien as Thingol's daughter and a leader of Doriath fits the character we have given Meril thus far.

She is quite protective of Orodreth. She knows he was deeply hurt by the loss of his parents. He was leary to even start a family after the death of his mother in the Dagor Aglareb. She wants to support him and help heal him. So, leaving Orodreth while he is facing a major crisis would be out of character for her. My presumption is that she will urge Gil-galad to leave, but will stay behind herself.

We have not yet come up with a firm answer to the question of what Celegorm and Curufin are doing in Nargothrond. Having them aid those escaping Tol Sirion fits, but...why are they on hand for that? We need to tell a story that puts them there if we are going that route.

I am fine with using a flashback to the end of the Dagor Bragollach to explain their presence in West Beleriand, but we are supposed to use flashback only very sparingly as a narrative device.