Odola
Well-Known Member
Why captured? Orodreth with family flees before Tol Sirion is taken by Sauron. So if Oropher were there, he has to have arrived before Sauron's attack and free?
Session 6-07: Beren and Lúthien, Part 1
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Why captured? Orodreth with family flees before Tol Sirion is taken by Sauron. So if Oropher were there, he has to have arrived before Sauron's attack and free?
Octoburn
Active Member
I'm saying if Oropher is not staying at Tol Sirion, but is in Hithlum under Finfolfin. If he fled with some other Sindar after the Bragollach, he could pass near Tol Sirion around the time Sauron takes it over. Like I said, just a hypothetical.
Right. Er, mostly the case.
In Silm Film, we mostly eliminated the Sindar who were already living in the North when the Noldor arrived. Rather, we had Círdan's people in Eglarest/Brithombar, and we had Thingol in Doriath, and...that's it. The rest of Beleriand was more-or-less besieged by forces of Angband, and so any wandering elves had retreated to safety. There was a desire not to overcomplicate the political situation of the Sindar.
Once the Noldor arrived and the land was peaceable again, the Sindar moved back into Beleriand, joining the Noldor kingdoms. So, we have Galdor in Nevrast, who becomes lord of one of the houses of Gondolin, and that house is made up mostly of Sindar. Galdor was introduced as one of Círdan's sailors in Season 3. And we have Annael's family, who become part of Fingolfin's people in Mithrim. Annael's son Elrhún is one of Fingon's heralds. Meril, Orodreth's wife, is a Sinda woman he met at the Mereth Aderthad. We did not establish any named Sindar characters in Dorthonion, nor in East Beleriand, so presumably there is less 'mingling' there.
In the past, we have discussed introducing Oropher as one of the elves who escapes the prison at Tol Sirion when Lúthien brings the tower down, and then brings that news to Doriath. We can certainly consider doing that this season. We have also mentioned making Inglor one of Finrod's companions who dies in the prison in Tol Sirion, as the set up for 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod.' Neither of those suggestions have been floated yet in Season 6 (they're more minor details), but certainly they can still be considered possibilities that are on the table.
Gil-galad is going to be in Tol Sirion at the beginning of this season, and retreat to Nargothrond. So, there *may* be an opportunity to show Oropher and Gil-galad interact in the opening episode (if we are going with Oropher being made captive at that time), but it isn't likely something we'd go out of our way to orchestrate, especially as Oropher would be a random background elf who has not yet been introduced in that scene. I don't think the relationship between Oropher and Gil-galad is all that significant in the long run, and we'll likely be giving Oropher clear reasons for his actions at the end of the Second Age that don't depend upon a first impression of a young Gil-galad from 3,000 years prior. We can keep the suggestion in mind, though.
Odola
Well-Known Member
If Oropher is already captured by Sauron he will be brought to Tol Sirion only after Orodreth's family has already left. So he and Gil-Galad would not meet then at all yet.
Were he to have been visiting Orodreth he might get captured at the time of Sauron's attack on Tol Sirion and have got to know Gil-Galad earlier during his stay there - and during the assumed attempted failed defence.
When Oropher is released by Luthien later does he go to Doriath and report what has happened? He would become a named character then at least?
But why is Oropher's family in Doriath already? Has he send them away before being captured himself? Are they the ones to inform Thingol and Luthien about the looming thread to their other cousins?
And Oropher would hold a personal grudge against Sauron for this captivity. So that's to be kept in mind for his end of 2nd Age motivations.
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I definitely support introducing Oropher here - I don't believe we have already? But he's not a major character yet and for now I'd honestly feel weird introducing a character for the sole purpose of capturing them in episode 1 (ok we have Deadwe but that's not a character who comes back in later seasons). I think we can introduce him as a member of Thingol's court though - maybe he's friends with Daeron and we can incorporate him that way?
Odola
Well-Known Member
If we are listing persons to be introduced: Nimloth!
Dior is to be born in just a few years from now, so she has to be around now to be of age when he is.
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Odola
Well-Known Member
So I've just listened to the yesterday's episode and have three point:
1) as the Tolkien Professor stated the wedding of B&L itself is not a huge event as they are a "done deal" by now - Thingol is just aknowledging the fact and the unavoidable - as such how can this be a "redemntion" for him - he just proves he is not completely an idiot - and we have known this about him already
2) The Tolkien Professor wants Luthien completely in her confort zone before she meets Beren - but then her meeting Beren would be an tragic event - as she was compeltely happy as she was and what Beren brings her is alienation from her family and people, struggle, suffering and death in the end. Sure, she acomplishes a lot and grows a lot - but if she does not personally care about neither acomplishment nor growth what is all this for her? What she gains would be only romance for a couple of decades, and that she could have head for much longer and deeper (as elves do bond deeper than humans do), had she chosen someone more suitable.
I am of the opinion - if she does not see it herself that she is "wasting time and potential" - than the audience should.
If all elvendom is so in awe of her but she is not really doing anything she is just a "celebrity" - "famous for being famous" only.
She seems so selflessly immersed in her art that she does consider the whole world to be just her audience, as such she does not notice neither Daeron's nor other peoples concrete needs and interest in her. But ironically this makes her also completly egocentric, stagnant and in the end actually meaningless - far more "form" than "content".
Maybe it is Melian who is worried by it. She sees her daughter stuck in the pursuit of her art - like a workaholic who forgets to "live" Luthien seem an "artaholic" - she forgets to grow as a person. [We all know or have heard of artists who neglect and sacrifice everything else for their art, friends, families, duties, own health and even life sometimes - nothing else is real or matters to them). Maybe it is Melian who tries to draw Luthien's attention to the fact that she is harming Daeron - not against his will - but still - as she seems to "lead him on" - and Luthien cannot grasp what Melian means, as Luthien's focussed is on her art, not on the people around her, who are just "audience" - like the trees and flowers in the forest.
Maybe Melian tries to interest Luthien in something else also, tries to challenge her (here the spinning wheel would come in) and Luthien is not interested at all - while polite to her mother.
Then Luthien's sending the request to her mother to send her the spinning wheel while in the treehouse would be a symbol that Luthien leaves this self- and art-centrednesss behind, now she wants things done, not "just" being "artsy".
This way meeting Beren whould be a gain for Luthien as a person, and not only an overpriced romance.
3) The tree house:
As I do not know what exaclty the Tolkien Professor's problem with the treehouse is, I do not know if this solves any problem he would have,
but the tree itself might be semi-sentient guardian - maybe a hald-awakend tree/huor but good-willing - and friends to Thingol - and Thingol entrust his daughter to it to guard her for him - maybe that tree comes to a conclusion that Thingol is doing wrong by "not letting his seed fall to the ground" as a tree would - as such deying its purpose - as such the tree would allow her escape?
But I am not sure if we have time enough for this - while it might give us some intersting special effects - a kind of a reverse "Old Man Willow".
As such the tree would witness Luthien coming to a decission, taking efforts to prepare her escape and in the end let her go - as Luthien would not harm the tree by fighting it, I think in the end it would have to be at least compliant. And the good thing is, Luthien would be able talk to it at times or partly to it and partly to herself.
Edit: Maybe Luthien's witnesses the tree letting her acorns fall to the ground - as she asks it/her whay does it/she not let her down also -and it/she does?
There is another question:
Seasons:
We know Beren sees Luthien in summer, and really meets her next spring.
Do we keep that? - What other seasons follow form there - which event takes place in which season? - We would need to figure this out.
Not necessary the moon phases (
), but the seasons at the very least.
1) as the Tolkien Professor stated the wedding of B&L itself is not a huge event as they are a "done deal" by now - Thingol is just aknowledging the fact and the unavoidable - as such how can this be a "redemntion" for him - he just proves he is not completely an idiot - and we have known this about him already
2) The Tolkien Professor wants Luthien completely in her confort zone before she meets Beren - but then her meeting Beren would be an tragic event - as she was compeltely happy as she was and what Beren brings her is alienation from her family and people, struggle, suffering and death in the end. Sure, she acomplishes a lot and grows a lot - but if she does not personally care about neither acomplishment nor growth what is all this for her? What she gains would be only romance for a couple of decades, and that she could have head for much longer and deeper (as elves do bond deeper than humans do), had she chosen someone more suitable.
I am of the opinion - if she does not see it herself that she is "wasting time and potential" - than the audience should.
If all elvendom is so in awe of her but she is not really doing anything she is just a "celebrity" - "famous for being famous" only.
She seems so selflessly immersed in her art that she does consider the whole world to be just her audience, as such she does not notice neither Daeron's nor other peoples concrete needs and interest in her. But ironically this makes her also completly egocentric, stagnant and in the end actually meaningless - far more "form" than "content".
Maybe it is Melian who is worried by it. She sees her daughter stuck in the pursuit of her art - like a workaholic who forgets to "live" Luthien seem an "artaholic" - she forgets to grow as a person. [We all know or have heard of artists who neglect and sacrifice everything else for their art, friends, families, duties, own health and even life sometimes - nothing else is real or matters to them). Maybe it is Melian who tries to draw Luthien's attention to the fact that she is harming Daeron - not against his will - but still - as she seems to "lead him on" - and Luthien cannot grasp what Melian means, as Luthien's focussed is on her art, not on the people around her, who are just "audience" - like the trees and flowers in the forest.
Maybe Melian tries to interest Luthien in something else also, tries to challenge her (here the spinning wheel would come in) and Luthien is not interested at all - while polite to her mother.
Then Luthien's sending the request to her mother to send her the spinning wheel while in the treehouse would be a symbol that Luthien leaves this self- and art-centrednesss behind, now she wants things done, not "just" being "artsy".
This way meeting Beren whould be a gain for Luthien as a person, and not only an overpriced romance.
3) The tree house:
As I do not know what exaclty the Tolkien Professor's problem with the treehouse is, I do not know if this solves any problem he would have,
but the tree itself might be semi-sentient guardian - maybe a hald-awakend tree/huor but good-willing - and friends to Thingol - and Thingol entrust his daughter to it to guard her for him - maybe that tree comes to a conclusion that Thingol is doing wrong by "not letting his seed fall to the ground" as a tree would - as such deying its purpose - as such the tree would allow her escape?
But I am not sure if we have time enough for this - while it might give us some intersting special effects - a kind of a reverse "Old Man Willow".
As such the tree would witness Luthien coming to a decission, taking efforts to prepare her escape and in the end let her go - as Luthien would not harm the tree by fighting it, I think in the end it would have to be at least compliant. And the good thing is, Luthien would be able talk to it at times or partly to it and partly to herself.
Edit: Maybe Luthien's witnesses the tree letting her acorns fall to the ground - as she asks it/her whay does it/she not let her down also -and it/she does?
There is another question:
Seasons:
We know Beren sees Luthien in summer, and really meets her next spring.
Do we keep that? - What other seasons follow form there - which event takes place in which season? - We would need to figure this out.
Not necessary the moon phases (
), but the seasons at the very least.
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
On the other hand Lúthien seems to be content with her lot; after she and Beren return to life they go to Tol Galen, well out of the way of events until the Dwarves who killed Thingol pass that way.So I've just listened to the yesterday's episode and have three point:
1) as the Tolkien Professor stated the wedding of B&L itself is not a huge event as they are a "done deal" by now - Thingol is just aknowledging the fact and the unavoidable - as such how can this be a "redemntion" for him - he just proves he is not completely an idiot - and we have known this about him already
2) The Tolkien Professor wants Luthien completely in her confort zone before she meets Beren - but then her meeting Beren would be an tragic event - as she was compeltely happy as she was and what Beren brings her is alienation from her family and people, struggle, suffering and death in the end. Sure, she acomplishes a lot and grows a lot - but if she does not personally care about neither acomplishment nor growth what is all this for her? What she gains would be only romance for a couple of decades, and that she could have head for much longer and deeper (as elves do bond deeper than humans do), had she chosen someone more suitable.
I am of the opinion - if she does not see it herself that she is "wasting time and potential" - than the audience should.
If all elvendom is so in awe of her but she is not really doing anything she is just a "celebrity" - "famous for being famous" only.
She seems so selflessly immersed in her art that she does consider the whole world to be just her audience, as such she does not notice neither Daeron's nor other peoples concrete needs and interest in her. But ironically this makes her also completly egocentric, stagnant and in the end actually meaningless - far more "form" than "content".
Maybe it is Melian who is worried by it. She sees her daughter stuck in the pursuit of her art - like a workaholic who forgets to "live" Luthien seem an "artaholic" - she forgets to grow as a person. [We all know or have heard of artists who neglect and sacrifice everything else for their art, friends, families, duties, own health and even life sometimes - nothing else is real or matters to them). Maybe it is Melian who tries to draw Luthien's attention to the fact that she is harming Daeron - not against his will - but still - as she seems to "lead him on" - and Luthien cannot grasp what Melian means, as Luthien's focussed is on her art, not on the people around her, who are just "audience" - like the trees and flowers in the forest.
Maybe Melian tries to interest Luthien in something else also, tries to challenge her (here the spinning wheel would come in) and Luthien is not interested at all - while polite to her mother.
Then Luthien's sending the request to her mother to send her the spinning wheel while in the treehouse would be a symbol that Luthien leaves this self- and art-centrednesss behind, now she wants things done, not "just" being "artsy".
This way meeting Beren whould be a gain for Luthien as a person, and not only an overpriced romance.
3) The tree house:
As I do not know what exaclty the Tolkien Professor's problem with the treehouse is, I do not know if this solves any problem he would have,
but the tree itself might be semi-sentient guardian - maybe a hald-awakend tree/huor but good-willing - and friends to Thingol - and Thingol entrust his daughter to it to guard her for him - maybe that tree comes to a conclusion that Thingol is doing wrong by "not letting his seed fall to the ground" as a tree would - as such deying its purpose - as such the tree would allow her escape?
But I am not sure if we have time enough for this - while it might give us some intersting special effects - a kind of a reverse "Old Man Willow".
As such the tree would witness Luthien coming to a decission, taking efforts to prepare her escape and in the end let her go - as Luthien would not harm the tree by fighting it, I think in the end it would have to be at least compliant. And the good thing is, Luthien would be able talk to it at times or partly to it and partly to herself.
Edit: Maybe Luthien's witnesses the tree letting her acorns fall to the ground - as she asks it/her whay does it/she not let her down also -and it/she does?
There is another question:
Seasons:
We know Beren sees Luthien in summer, and really meets her next spring.
Do we keep that? - What other seasons follow form there - which event takes place in which season? - We would need to figure this out.
Not necessary the moon phases (
Odola
Well-Known Member
But far away from Doriath and Thingol - so seemigly not so very content with her previous life anymore. And what is she doing there?- She gets pregnant and raises Dior, after which - due to elvish customs - she has her elvish "recovery" period - all times where elvish mother go into "confinement" anyway. And she is now also stripped from all her powers - as such she is extremely vulnerable and barely able to do anything more than to keep herself alive in her new strange condition.
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Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
I think that the getting pregnant and raising Dior part of the B&L story is a HUGE deal and would be a fitting end to the season. This is the first (and only) genetic mingling of Elves, Maiar and Humans which brings into Human history something of the divine. This to me is the ultimate culmination of the story - it tells us that the story continues, as Sam recognises on the stairs of Cirith Ungol. We will see this only once again with Tuor and Idril, whose union and birthing of a single child, Earendil, heralds the hope of humanity. This is a big reason why I agree with Corey that episode 13 should be substantive in its treatment of the post-Mandos part of the story. There is Luthien’s new mortality and her healing of Thingol’s winter, but then there is also new birth and the hope that stems from that.
Odola
Well-Known Member
That is actually something I've just started to wonder about when thinking this through. If Luthien is stripped of all her special powers how can she heal Thingol? It must be his own love for her that heals him, she herself cannot actively do this anymore?
Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘stripped of her special powers’. I don’t think we have much to go on with how Luthien is changed from becoming mortal. She is still Luthien, isn’t she?
Odola
Well-Known Member
All of her supernatural powers are gone, I understand?
That is one interpretation, and we could decide to give her a 'cost' for their joint return. But the only absolutely necessary cost is her mortality. It is worth pointing out that her 'line' has special inheritance, and not just the dark hair. Dior is born after she becomes mortal. So, if we would like her to retain some or all of her magic powers, she could.
Odola
Well-Known Member
O.k.
As the healing power is inherited by both Elros' and Elrond' lines - like the dark hair - Luthien keeping it actually does make sense.
(Actually if the dark hair is interpreted as a "inheritable Ainu-nature derived capacity to restore lost original function " then actually both the gift of healing and the dark hair are connected in their nature and being "dominant" are passed down the lines.)
But what else of her powers does Luthien keep and what does she lose when returning after death?
I think we would need a general decission about that for our story?
Odola
Well-Known Member
Faithfulness to his leader and father who is the commander here. Beren might argue against it at council, but will not act against its final conclusions.
I agree we should discuss that in more detail when we get to the final chapter of the Beren and Lúthien story. What is the cost of resurrection - becoming mortal could alter Lúthien's nature in some way.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Imho if he would feel guilt he would not leave. He would guard their graves and wait to die while contuining their work.
But it makes perfect sense for him that if he thought their goal vain from the beginning - or at least for some time now - he would leave the very moment his duties to his comrades are over.
As much as I love his attachement to Dorthonion in the text,
if we are cutting out the 4 years he spends there on his own anyway,
having him being conviced that leaving is the most sensible course of action
makes him leaving as soon as he is free to
make perfect sense and need no further explaination.
Clear, efficient, understandable to the audience.
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