Session 6-08: Beren and Lúthien Part 2

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Alright, so I reviewed the conversation, and I would say that the payoff only works if we see Daeron make it to Angband. He could arrive with the eagles or as a visual herald of their arrival, but I don't think aborting his plot arc halfway to Angband works.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Alright, so I reviewed the conversation, and I would say that the payoff only works if we see Daeron make it to Angband. He could arrive with the eagles or as a visual herald of their arrival, but I don't think aborting his plot arc halfway to Angband works.

Ah, I see why we heard different things now.

 

[MithLuin]

I will go back and relisten. I was very tired on Thursday evening. I was under the impression we had vetoed the 'Daeron helps them back to Doriath' idea, so his main role in that part of the story is alerting the eagles to Lúthien's mission. I agree he is headed towards Angband, but his encounter with the eagles is prior to that.

So, for the 'open-ended' thing, I figured we would not be showing him in Doriath during the Hunt for the Wolf. He may return to Doriath shortly after, but we aren't showing it. So, no, he does not just hang out on Anfauglith until the Nirnaeth, but we don't show his return to Doriath on screen this season, leaving his fate open-ended until we write him back into the story.

 

[Odola]

I will go back and relisten. I was very tired on Thursday evening. I was under the impression we had vetoed the 'Daeron helps them back to Doriath' idea, so his main role in that part of the story is alerting the eagles to Lúthien's mission. I agree he is headed towards Angband, but his encounter with the eagles is prior to that.

So, for the 'open-ended' thing, I figured we would not be showing him in Doriath during the Hunt for the Wolf. He may return to Doriath shortly after, but we aren't showing it. So, no, he does not just hang out on Anfauglith until the Nirnaeth, but we don't show his return to Doriath on screen this season, leaving his fate open-ended until we write him back into the story.

If Daeron was going North he could go either plan to go via the pass of Anach - which he knew from Beren to be already taken by orcs - or towards the former Tol Sirion in the Sirion valley - if he had followed the Mindeb on its western side and the tried to keep to the montains around Gondolin to try to avoid whoever was left in former Tol Sirion spotting him, he would pass near the Crissaegrim mountain chain, where the eagles have lived. There are water sources nearby and propably some mountain goats and other game (eagles have to eat too)- he probably could stay in a cave there for some time undetected if nobody was explicitely looking for him. Still there were orcs nearby, he would have to take some efforts to stay safe.
https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/maps/crissaegrim.png

 

[Haerangil]

It is far harder to find a single survivalist.He has a much better chance to evade larger enemy patrols than Finrod's company!

Also we know he is a musical illusion-weaver... that ought to help him by a lot if necessary.Not that we have to explicitly show this, but he should be quite capable.

 

[Odola]

Alright, so I reviewed the conversation, and I would say that the payoff only works if we see Daeron make it to Angband. He could arrive with the eagles or as a visual herald of their arrival, but I don't think aborting his plot arc halfway to Angband works.

If Daeron gets stuck near Crissaegrim having behind him the orcs fom the Pass of Anach and the road building project and before him the orcs escaping Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Tol Sirion) he might climb up half way the slopes of Crissaegrim and sit down there to lament considering his mission failed not knowing the eagles heard him? This would be payoff enought for the audience, he might not be aware of his success but it is enough if the audience knows it?

 

[MithLuin]

Recall that we are not including road building in the Pass of Anach in this season.

 

[Odola]

Recall that we are not including road building in the Pass of Anach in this season.

The completion is far off (by few decades). But the pass is already taken (as Beren cannot use it) and the preparation work is going on, which means the orcs are already there, and when Tol-in-Gaurhoth falls both the orcs in the Pass of Anach and those fleeing Tol-in-Gaurhoth are blocking both Daeron's only ways North.

If the dragons' breeding place is around in Rivil's Well then the orcs from Tol-in-Gaurhoth will go for Pass of Anach to reach Dorthonion and those stationed there will probably sent some forces to meet them, which could sucessfully cut Daeron off. This would be necessary, as Beren and Luthien were in the general area following Tol-in-Gaurhoth's fall and Daeron has to be kept from meeting them.

 

[Kathrin]

What if Daeron where to make his way east and travel through eastern beleriand, the dwarf, sindar, human, green-elf regions, maybe into middle earth, singing the lay of leithian and other ballads? Which would, concretely for soon(ish) spread the word, & help with the mobilisation efforts of the nirnaeth, and long term maybe even prime ppl in what will be middle earth for the transition into the second age and everyone fleeing from Beleriand. Idk how to show that though exactly, a musical outro from this season /intro in the next, or later even, or later daeron as a sort of musical spectre (figuratively xD) having already brought word of the first age and its tales.

He might have a concrete cameo much later, and bow out some time in the second age maybe. Because i kinda like his "getting out of here" exit from at least this direct part of the story, and i don't know if it is necessary to slot him back in somewhere in the close future in the first age, but i do agree that it's kinda unsatisfying too how he just disappears randomly.

 

[Odola]

What if Daeron where to make his way east and travel through eastern beleriand, the dwarf, sindar, human, green-elf regions, maybe into middle earth, singing the lay of leithian and other ballads?...

But if Daeron follows Luthien how can he end up East if he knows her to head North?

For Aragorn to know it - if it has been composed by Daeron - it would be necessary for Elros and Elrond to have learned it from their mother Elwing. So she would have to have been taught it while a child in Doriath before its fall.

 

[Kathrin]

For Aragorn to know it - if it has been composed by Daeron - it would be necessary for Elros and Elrond to have learned it from their mother Elwing. So she would have to have been taught it while a child in Doriath before its fall.

Well, it doesn't need to be taught by him directly, it could just spread everywhere, after all it is this great moment of hope being spread after it happens, that leads into the Nirnaeth being this big bummer. It should be a big cultural thing, everyone around knows the Lay of Leithian pretty soon, I think. Especially with him being the most famous singer and the Lay of Leithian being this famous song of the sudden unlikely defeat of Sauron, I would expect it being sung everywhere, and i think it would lessen how omnipresent it is if we only show ppl who learned it from him knowing it.

 

[Odola]

Well, it doesn't need to be taught by him directly, it could just spread everywhere, after all it is this great moment of hope being spread after it happens, that leads into the Nirnaeth being this big bummer. It should be a big cultural thing, everyone around knows the Lay of Leithian pretty soon, I think. Especially with him being the most famous singer and the Lay of Leithian being this famous song of the sudden unlikely defeat of Sauron, I would expect it being sung everywhere, and i think it would lessen how omnipresent it is if we only show ppl who learned it from him knowing it.

Given that a mixed marriage is a scandal for both humans and elves alike and both like to gossip I could see that the song could find some general distribution
- but still the human not concerned by it directly - like all those not of Luthien's lineage - would soon forget the details - it would become a generalised legend very fast.
So it would be for the elves to remember it - beyong the lineage concerned.
But would they sing it publicaly much?
For them it is a tragic and delicate story - they lost Luthien. And it criticizes Thingol - one of most prominent elvish leaders.
I do not think it would be very "politically correct" to sing for elves much, neither for the Sindar nor for the Noldor, beyond the nearest circle of the family concerned.
So I do not think it would be sung in Numenor if not passed down Elros' line - as it is their family history and founding mythos.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Given that a mixed marriage is a scandal for both humans and elves alike and both like to gossip I could see that the song could find some general distribution
- but still the human not concerned by it directly - like all those not of Luthien's lineage - would soon forget the details - it would become a generalised legend very fast.
So it would be for the elves to remember it - beyong the lineage concerned.
But would they sing it publicaly much?
For them it is a tragic and delicate story - they lost Luthien. And it criticizes Thingol - one of most prominent elvish leaders.
I do not think it would be very "politically correct" to sing for elves much, neither for the Sindar nor for the Noldor, beyond the nearest circle of the family concerned.
So I do not think it would be sung in Numenor if not passed down Elros' line - as it is their family history and founding mythos.

Well it becomes less scandalous since Turgon allows Idril and Tuor to marry, no strings attached minus the whole "stay in Gondolin" part.

 

[Odola]

Well it becomes less scandalous since Turgon allows Idril and Tuor to marry, no strings attached minus the whole "stay in Gondolin" part.

Still I cannot see how the general population of the Sindar would promote it.
Idril's line becomes connected with Luthien's very soon, so both those stories are soon in the same "cultural inheritage package" of one certain prestigious family.

And the Noldor would not sing much about Sindarin "inner problems", especially as they killed off most of the people concerned. Would not be very tastefull.

Edit: I could see the Noldor sing about Tuor, Gondolin, and the deeds of Finrod and Beren - but Beren's context with Luthien would be only hinted at in this contect imho - to not offend the Sindar too much. I think most of those songs would be reserved for Luthien's direct descendants - see the remarks of Aragorn about Bilbo's singing the song of Earendil in the house of his son being somewhat unusual. This seems to suggest Luthien's family is something you gossip about in a private setting, and not publicly or in front of its members as an outsider.

The Lay is sung in Rivendell - probably by people connected to the family - but it does not seem o be "common goods" or part of the general culture to me.

 

[Kathrin]

I am not too sure, since Doriath makes quite a turn for the more human-friendly after B&L, after all when Turin arrives Thingol does seem to try and redeem what he feels was his mistake. I think just after B&L should be a moment of cohesion not seen since the days of the mereth aderthad, which heightens the tragedy of that falling apart in the nirnaeth so soon. I feel like the story of B&L is that big rally around the flag of hope moment and the song should be widely sung, in different versions with different emphasises surely, but in my opinion it should be ubiquitous in that moment.

In Lotr we also don't get as many moments of elves singing their songs, in a translated way even, and especially not elves outside the to us known groups. So we just don't have that data, and then that is also 3rd age elves in middle earth, not the same population as first age Beleriand. After all there is still a lot of death and ruin to come.

 

[Odola]

In Lotr we also don't get as many moments of elves singing their songs, in a translated way even, and especially not elves outside the to us known groups. So we just don't have that data, and then that is also 3rd age elves in middle earth, not the same population as first age Beleriand. After all there is still a lot of death and ruin to come.

We see Legolas singing the Nimrodel song which is a tragic elven romance.
But we do not see him singing about Mithrellas and Imrazôr nor even knowing about them - mixed marriages seem not to be talked much about among elves - which makes sense: do not give young elves ideas about mixed romances being feasible.

 

[Kathrin]

I feel like this is too little data so to speak. He doesnt know that story, he sings one song - Legolas is nearly 3000 years old, it might be possible he doesn't know more, but it is exactly as probable or more that he has heard other stories, that is all speculation. Which is always fun, don't get me wrong, but not enough to definitely determine this question.
Also, he is a young elf specifically from an isolationist kingdom thousands of years after first age events, that feels very different to contemporaries on the same continent, even in close family relation.

 

[Odola]

I feel like this is too little data so to speak. He doesnt know that story, he sings one song - Legolas is nearly 3000 years old, it might be possible he doesn't know more, but it is exactly as probable or more that he has heard other stories, that is all speculation. Which is always fun, don't get me wrong, but not enough to definitely determine this question.
Also, he is a young elf specifically from an isolationist kingdom thousands of years after first age events, that feels very different to contemporaries on the same continent, even in close family relation.

But Nimrodel and Mithrellas are from the same time and the 3rd Age both - they were companions. If Legolas knows about the one he should know about the other - or the mixed romance of the second one was too scandalous to be sung about among Sindar/Silvan elves while the elven one of the first was not. That is what the text (TLOTR) as given suggests (regardless of if intended by the author or not).

 

[Kathrin]

Idk, seems to me too small a sample size. Like yeah, it is consistent with that view, but it isn't clearly pushing me towards that belief. Also there seems a big spectrum to me between something being little known in a society and something being actively being treated as taboo and scandalous, and legolas' behaviour is consistent with both ends of that spectrum.

 

[kanji_d]

I don't really have an opinion one way or another, but the fact is we don't have any larger sample size. There are only five known Elf-Man romances in Middle-Earth. Of those:

• We're tackling Beren and Luthien
• I don't actually remember how we wrote Andreth and Aegnor
• Re: Mithrellas and Imrazor, I don't believe that just because Legolas doesn't mention them in his song doesn't mean that he was avoiding them. He was singing about Nimrodel and Amroth, and Mithrellas is a related but ancillary plot in that story. He's also only singing a fragment of the Lay. If other Tolkienian lays are any indicator it might have been much longer in full. Legolas almost knows the story - he sees that Imrahil has Elvish blood in him. But I don't think that means he's actively avoiding their story.
• At least by appearances Idril and Tuor seem to be supported by Turgon, but you're right that there might be a difference between Noldorin and Sindarin attitudes to it.
• Aragorn and Arwen aren't actively supported by Elrond, bereaved father that he is, but he also doesn't assign Aragorn an impossible task like Thingol does Beren. The quest Aragorn is assigned is, in fact, far more acheivable, and I think Elrond knows that, like Beren and Luthien, it is in the end impossible to keep them apart.