Session 6-11: Beren and Lúthien Finale

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Just listened to the session. Wow. A lot got rearranged in 11-13.

Am I correct in remembering that the Narsil discussion led to getting them into Brethil and meeting Andreth and Emildir, but we've now decided that Narsil is no longer there now, but in Nargothrond? Or is it going to Nargothrond later? That was quite a session of What-Ifs, I seem to have lost track in terms of Narsil.

Yeah, I was having a lot of trouble following it and I was there...
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
For the 6-12 na 6-13 threads:

O.k. so here the questions:

1. Which hand does Beren loose in our story - his right or left one? If he has no weapon at the moment his hand is bitten off then probably the right hand, if he has any randomly acquired weapon (avisable) in his right hand then probably the left. Which is it for us?

2. Are Emeldir (and the girls) invited to Beren's wedding? If not, why not? Have B&L had some small scale low key human blessing ceremony already while in Brethil (given that Andreth can do that?).

3. Which route does Carcaroth take to Doriath?
Does he come upon Brethil on his way there (would be necessary geographically, if he follows the Eagles by scent)?

4. Does Andreth die facing off Carcaroth? (Would be a nice hero's death). I could see Emeldir leading the defence but Andreth saving her at the last moment. Does Andreth command Emeldir to get the girls out of Brethil before she dies?

5. As such, is Carcaroth's rampage in Brethil connected to Emeldir's and the girls' leaving it?

(Alltogether such or a similar sequence in Brethil would imho show Carcaroth as a real actual danger to people we do care about more do than having him just atracking random elves in Doriath that we do not know.)

6. Then again Beren's 1st death: What happens to his first body.? And to Luthien's after her first death (I assume she does die a "normal" elven broken-heart-death?)

7. Do B&L get new bodies when they come back elven-style (we know that the Valar do know how to do that). Does Beren "get his lost hand back" then?

8. How does Luthien feel in her mortal body? For her this is like being severly impaired. Is this the reason she leaves Doriath not wanting to be seen by her fellow elves who knew her in her former glory in such a reduced state?

9. Beren fell in love with and has married a powerfull age-less elvish half-Ainu princess. How does he react to having her reduced to a mere mortal woman with all its limitations, aging, ailments, illness, sickness, progressing failings, loss of control and in addition with the complete lack of human knowledge, human-specific resources and experience how to (more or less) "gracefully" and efficently deal with such a degraded state?

10. Luthien is still not part of the human Fall nor of the human Hope. (In Catholic tradition the first condition is passed down patrilineary via the "Sin of Adam", the latter matrilineary via the "Seed of the Woman" Promise of Redemption from Genesis. [This is the main reason why Jesus has to be born of a Virgin - as He has to be the promised "Seed of the Woman".] Even if Tolkien does not take those concepts over 1:1 into Arda - still human falleness is being inherited in Ea too by descent and as such Luthien cannot technically be made part of it). - So Luthien's new limitations are not an answer to her fallen condition. They are completely artificial and she has no inborn instincts how to face them or how to compesate for them. Beren has probably to teach her all step by step like one rehabilitates a person after a car accident.

Or is Luthien in a state an unfallen human would have been? And Beren in a similar also, having had already died once? Luthien's mortal life is shortened by the Silmaril, and Beren's gives up his 2nd life like later the Kings of Numenor. Do their 2nd bodies vanish after their 2nd death as the sentence about nobody knowing their grave site seems to suggest - as at least Dior should have known it?

11. To which extent having Luthien get the Silmaril necklace does compensate for her lost powers (if she has lost any) for a while?

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So summarising questions 8-11 - the main question is: "How much "mortal" does Luthien become? What does this even mean? "Mortal" does not equal "human". Dwarves are mortal but not humans. So are animals.

The relation of Luthien's fea to Arda/Ea is altered. So is her fea's relation to her (new) body. But her fea itself is not altered - how could it be?

So how far is she really subject to human inborn limitations?
Those are not all connected just to human mortality but a result of human "fallenness" which she is not part of?
So how far does she really lose her magic powers?
 
Last edited:

Odola

Well-Known Member
BTW Andreth imho should express some dismay at the news that she has managed to outlive her almost-brother-in-law and dear friend Finrod.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Just listened to the session. Wow. A lot got rearranged in 11-13.

Am I correct in remembering that the Narsil discussion led to getting them into Brethil and meeting Andreth and Emildir, but we've now decided that Narsil is no longer there now, but in Nargothrond? Or is it going to Nargothrond later? That was quite a session of What-Ifs, I seem to have lost track in terms of Narsil.
Yeahhhh...I was *not* prepared for that discussion!

What was decided was that Beren and Lúthien would go to Brethil to recuperate from Beren losing his hand, giving them a chance for some conversations and decision-making. Beren and Emeldir will discuss the death of Barahir while his hand is tended. Lúthien and Andreth will also be discussing death, in the context of Lúthien's relationship with mortal Beren. The Quest did not succeed (well, not fully), but Beren and Lúthien will still be heading to Doriath.

Then, at the end of episode 13, there would be a scene of Emeldir saying farewell to Andreth's grave while leading the remaining Dorthonion refugees to Dor-lómin. At this point, Narsil is with Emeldir and is thus also headed to Dor-lómin. [Getting Narsil out of Dor-lómin without having it end up in the Hill of Slain is now a problem for future seasons.] So, naturally, we will want to set up this ending in the Episode 11 scenes.

Also, Húrin and Huor's time in Gondolin now overlaps with Beren and Lúthien's visit to Brethil, so we are not meeting them in this season, but saving them until next season.

1653147353774.png

Here's the new setup. As you can see, Episode 12 now has some breathing room for additional side plots, so we'll no doubt be showing some of Carcaroth's rampage and how that affects other places. And based on what has to happen in Episode 13, there is definitely no room for Dior this season. It may be possible to show that Lúthien is pregnant in a final shot at Tol Galen, but even that is considered optional at this point.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Re: The Fall of Man in Middle-earth

Recall that in Tolkien's conception, Death is the Gift of Men from Ilúvatar, and is thus natural to Men in an unfallen state. Before the Fall, Men died and left the Circles of the World. After the Fall, they fear death.

I recognize that this does not perfectly match Christian theology, where death is the consequence of the Fall, and thus unfallen Man could be viewed as naturally immortal. Lúthien is naturally longeval, of course, but not because she is unfallen - because she is an elf/maia. Tolkien delves into this philosophy in the Athrabeth, and our show will be consistent with that as much as possible. We've naturally had to express the 'Old Hope' a bit more vaguely, but it's still very much present.

So, it is true that mortality is not 'natural' to Lúthien, and she would not have had a way to leave Arda if Eru did not intervene. But her new state is due to direct intervention of Eru in Arda, so there is nothing 'artificial' about it. Lúthien's new state is as natural as anything...simply very unique! I recognize that there may be some adjustment for Lúthien in her return, but I don't think we want to treat resurrection by Eru as an injury in this case.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Re: The Fall of Man in Middle-earth

Recall that in Tolkien's conception, Death is the Gift of Men from Ilúvatar, and is thus natural to Men in an unfallen state. Before the Fall, Men died and left the Circles of the World. After the Fall, they fear death.
That is exactly my point.

In the common opinion Luthien became mortal = fallen = burdened with aging, illness, lack of power over nature and oneself.

But it is not the case here. She is mortal but not fallen. As such she is due to die but not necessary robbed of her power over nature and herself. She does not need to get the flu or tooth decay. Or become forgetfull, or get gray hair and wrinkles. She still can conceive at will and not "by accident."

I recognize that this does not perfectly match Christian theology, where death is the consequence of the Fall, and thus unfallen Man could be viewed as naturally immortal. Lúthien is naturally longeval, of course, but not because she is unfallen - because she is an elf/maia. Tolkien delves into this philosophy in the Athrabeth, and our show will be consistent with that as much as possible. We've naturally had to express the 'Old Hope' a bit more vaguely, but it's still very much present.
How far is the 'Old Hope' connected to the human bloodlines in our version? And how far specifically to the human female bloodlines?

So, it is true that mortality is not 'natural' to Lúthien, and she would not have had a way to leave Arda if Eru did not intervene. But her new state is due to direct intervention of Eru in Arda, so there is nothing 'artificial' about it. Lúthien's new state is as natural as anything...simply very unique! I recognize that there may be some adjustment for Lúthien in her return, but I don't think we want to treat resurrection by Eru as an injury in this case.
I have not described mere "mortality" as artificial above - but the "human limitations" - which are not necessary a result of mortality itself even if they are confused with it in our thinking - as they considered co-effects of the Fall in Christian thinking.

By those "human limitation" I meant: the limited command over one's own body and one's own nature, limited strenght and receptivity of senses (compared to elves), conflicting impulses, weakness of mind and character, the natural world being in opposition to oneself - so no "magical powers" over nature, high susceptibility to corruption - physical, mental, spiritual.
So: weakness, illness and degenerative aging.

Those "human limitations" do not have necessary to apply to Luthien at all just becuse she is mortal now.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
1. Which hand does Beren lose in our story - his right or left one? If he has no weapon at the moment his hand is bitten off then probably the right hand, if he has any randomly acquired weapon (advisable) in his right hand then probably the left. Which is it for us?
In the published Silmarillion, Beren has the silmaril in his right hand when he thrusts it into Carcaroth's face...and thus loses it.

Checking Bre's concept art, she has depicted the scene both ways. We will discuss the confrontation with Carcaroth at the gate of Angband in Episode 10.


2. Are Emeldir (and the girls) invited to Beren's wedding? If not, why not? Have B&L had some small scale low key human blessing ceremony already while in Brethil (given that Andreth can do that?).
The entire point of even showing the wedding of Beren and Lúthien on screen is to show the reconciliation of Thingol with his daughter. Naturally, this is the moment where the ban on humans entering Doriath is lifted, and one of the most natural ways to show this will be to have Emeldir present at the wedding in Doriath. There is a reason Morwen will think she can send her young son to Thingol's court post-Nirnaeth.



6. Then again Beren's 1st death: What happens to his first body.? And to Luthien's after her first death (I assume she does die a "normal" elven broken-heart-death?)

7. Do B&L get new bodies when they come back elven-style (we know that the Valar do know how to do that). Does Beren "get his lost hand back" then?
Presumably, regular funerary practices are followed. So both Beren and Lúthien would have graves in Doriath. The next time they appear in Doriath, it would be as healthy resurrected people. We are not going to show the process of resurrection, so the audience can be left to wonder how that worked. This is how Tolkien handled the death of Finrod - he has a grave on Tol Sirion, and yet he walks in Valinor with his father and his beloved Amárië. Mortal resurrection is rather...rare...so we don't exactly have a precedent here!

As Beren is known as Beren Erchamion moving forward, presumably his hand does not grow back.


Most of your later questions will be for later seasons, as there will not be a lot of screen time in Season 6 with Resurrected Lúthien.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The entire point of even showing the wedding of Beren and Lúthien on screen is to show the reconciliation of Thingol with his daughter. Naturally, this is the moment where the ban on humans entering Doriath is lifted, and one of the most natural ways to show this will be to have Emeldir present at the wedding in Doriath. There is a reason Morwen will think she can send her young son to Thingol's court post-Nirnaeth.
Great! Makes perfect sense. (Would be nice to see Andreth there, too, smiling triumphantly to herself.)

Presumably, regular funerary practices are followed. So both Beren and Lúthien would have graves in Doriath. The next time they appear in Doriath, it would be as healthy resurrected people. [...]
As Beren is known as Beren Erchamion moving forward, presumably his hand does not grow back.
That a little contradictory. Healthy does not normally mean maimed.
Beren might have got the name Erchamion around his wedding - and afterwards, as he is not seen by humans and lives some kind of seclusion - the name might have stuck even if the condition has no longer applied. John Landless is still called "Landless" even today and that's after he became all but one - as he himself became the king later.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
. [Getting Narsil out of Dor-lómin without having it end up in the Hill of Slain is now a problem for future seasons.]
I know I sometimes pick silly things to nitpick about, but it's usually because they are long-term ideas rather than the right-now issues that are already settled.

But, why does Narsil have to end up on the Hill of the Slain? There has to be an easier route to get it to Nargothrond before Turin does.

I'm an idiot who cannot read. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Odola

Well-Known Member
I know I sometimes pick silly things to nitpick about, but it's usually because they are long-term ideas rather than the right-now issues that are already settled.

But, why does Narsil have to end up on the Hill of the Slain? There has to be an easier route to get it to Nargothrond before Turin does.
Propose one, or even better: propose several to choose from... ;)
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
How far is the 'Old Hope' connected to the human bloodlines in our version? And how far specifically to the human female bloodlines?
The 'Old Hope' is introduced in Season 5 Episode 11, during the Athrabeth discussion. To see what that discussion looks like in Silm Film, check out the script - the old hope conversation is on p. 48 of this document:


As to your questions about bloodlines, we do have 'hope' (not necessarily the Old Hope, but not necessarily not the Old Hope...) being tied to weddings explicitly when Andreth officiates the double wedding in the episode before this one:

Double wedding. Andreth officiates. She speaks of cultural traditions, meaning of marriage, ‘translation’ for the elven guests. These marriages represent a hope for the future of both peoples.​
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The 'Old Hope' is introduced in Season 5 Episode 11, during the Athrabeth discussion. To see what that discussion looks like in Silm Film, check out the script - the old hope conversation is on p. 48 of this document:


As to your questions about bloodlines, we do have 'hope' (not necessarily the Old Hope, but not necessarily not the Old Hope...) being tied to weddings explicitly when Andreth officiates the double wedding in the episode before this one:

Double wedding. Andreth officiates. She speaks of cultural traditions, meaning of marriage, ‘translation’ for the elven guests. These marriages represent a hope for the future of both peoples.​
O.k. So it is not so explicit as to necessarily exclude elves per se. But still Finrod does say there:

"And if this message of hope was given to Men, certainly Men will have a role in bringing it to fruition. [...] No such hope was ever spoken to the Quendi. To you only it was sent. And yet... through you we may hear it and lift up our hearts."

Which does stongly imply human bloodlines, even if not specifically female ones.
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We do not include an explicit reference to Eru becoming incarnate as a mortal in Silm Film, no. But there is an indication that Men have something to do with Eru's plans to heal Arda, while Elves do not. Again, I suggest reading the dialogue to determine what is or is not implied here.
 
Last edited:

Odola

Well-Known Member
We do not include an explicit reference to Eru becoming incarnate as a moral in Silm Film, no. But there is an indication that Men have something to do with Eru's plans to heal Arda, while Elves do not. Again, I suggest reading the dialogue to determine what is or is not implied here.
I did, as seen in the post above. But that makes the union of B&L theologically slightly problematic in-story. Luthien is not part of this human Hope and Beren is reembodied - his old body buried - that makes his human bloodline broken. So B&L's offspring is not part of the Hope until Earendil marries in (if we assume the Hope being transmitted also via male line in Tolkien) - or even further down the line if we accept the story that Tuor has been counted among the Eldar. Then the next carrier of that human Hope would be Elros' wife - she would bring it in as her spiritual "dowry".
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Ah, sorry, your edit was not visible when I typed my reply.

I would say that the hope is just that....hope. Characters may accept and buy in to that hope or not. Finrod, for instance, is considering incorporating this hope into his worldview from the moment he hears about it. He knows he won't be the one to bring this about (he's not mortal), but it can still impact him. So, he can embrace the Old Hope alongside the mortals.

Lúthien is in a similar situation. She was not born mortal, no, so this would not initially have been part of her heritage. But she may learn of the Old Hope from Beren, and she can choose whether or not to embrace that hope that she may not be separated from her people with the finality that she expects.

As for the fulfillment, that will no doubt be through a mortal bloodline in the distant future, but that is well beyond the scope of Silm Film. I do not see any contradiction or issue here.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yeahhhh...I was *not* prepared for that discussion!

What was decided was that Beren and Lúthien would go to Brethil to recuperate from Beren losing his hand, giving them a chance for some conversations and decision-making. Beren and Emeldir will discuss the death of Barahir while his hand is tended. Lúthien and Andreth will also be discussing death, in the context of Lúthien's relationship with mortal Beren. The Quest did not succeed (well, not fully), but Beren and Lúthien will still be heading to Doriath.

Then, at the end of episode 13, there would be a scene of Emeldir saying farewell to Andreth's grave while leading the remaining Dorthonion refugees to Dor-lómin. At this point, Narsil is with Emeldir and is thus also headed to Dor-lómin. [Getting Narsil out of Dor-lómin without having it end up in the Hill of Slain is now a problem for future seasons.] So, naturally, we will want to set up this ending in the Episode 11 scenes.

Also, Húrin and Huor's time in Gondolin now overlaps with Beren and Lúthien's visit to Brethil, so we are not meeting them in this season, but saving them until next season.

View attachment 4291

Here's the new setup. As you can see, Episode 12 now has some breathing room for additional side plots, so we'll no doubt be showing some of Carcaroth's rampage and how that affects other places. And based on what has to happen in Episode 13, there is definitely no room for Dior this season. It may be possible to show that Lúthien is pregnant in a final shot at Tol Galen, but even that is considered optional at this point.
I thought Emeldir went to Brethil, not Dor-Lomin.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Ah, sorry, your edit was not visible when I typed my reply.

I would say that the hope is just that....hope. Characters may accept and buy in to that hope or not. Finrod, for instance, is considering incorporating this hope into his worldview from the moment he hears about it. He knows he won't be the one to bring this about (he's not mortal), but it can still impact him. So, he can embrace the Old Hope alongside the mortals.

Lúthien is in a similar situation. She was not born mortal, no, so this would not initially have been part of her heritage. But she may learn of the Old Hope from Beren, and she can choose whether or not to embrace that hope that she may not be separated from her people with the finality that she expects.

As for the fulfillment, that will no doubt be through a mortal bloodline in the distant future, but that is well beyond the scope of Silm Film. I do not see any contradiction or issue here.

O.K. But I doubt Beren himself does know much or cares. Andreth might be the person to hint about it in her talk to Luthien.

[Still Tolkien himself hinted somewhere that Luthien's own bloodline will be involved in the Redemption. So that would make Luthien via Elros one of the distant ancestors of Abraham. Out of scope of SilmFilm for sure, but still funny to think about, imho. Actually in-story having Melian marrying Thingol (with all the disconfort that being trapped in her body due to marital intimacy, conception and pregnancy causes her) is part of the Valar's plot to get the Ainur themselves involved in that very "Redemption" bloodline. ;) (The Ainur simply want to ensure their own part in Arda Healed.) As such they have to grant Luthien the exception and get her and Beren back alive, as without Dior being born their whole "cunning plan" misfires. And Melian is at least partially aware of the whole plan and what it implies the whole time of the story.]
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I thought Emeldir went to Brethil, not Dor-Lomin.
Correct, all of the refugees from Dorthonion, including Emeldir, are in Brethil at this time. The group is about to decide to move on to Dor-lomin, though, so they will be there in Season 7.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Correct, all of the refugees from Dorthonion, including Emeldir, are in Brethil at this time. The group is about to decide to move on to Dor-lomin, though, so they will be there in Season 7.
I guess we decided to keep the refugees one single group instead of two? If Emeldir makes it to the Nirnaeth, she's done for.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I am listening to the episodes asynchronously, so... Apologies in advance if I'm revisiting already solved issues. I'm also not sure if I've understood this correctly... :rolleyes:

I take it that Daeron goes looking for Luthien, and that he understands that she's heading for Angband? And that he encounters the Eagles and tells them this? If this is the case, then...I feel the Eagles aren't represented as the servants of Manwë that they are. I think they should know more than Daeron. Again, maybe you've already gone through this. I don't think there has to be a huge change in the story, but I'd be happy if there was a less clear transaction between Daeron and the Eagles. He could be under the impression that he gives them vital intel, and they can thank him for it, but it could be implied that they actually have seen Luthien and Beren moving north towards Thangorodrim.
 
Top