Session 6-12: The Frame Story

[MithLuin]

Session 6-12 will be held on Thursday June 2nd at 10 PM Eastern Time. We will be discussing the Frame story for Season 6.

We have been planning for some time to have this frame feature the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen in Rivendell. Aragorn was the subject of the Season 1 frame - as a 10 year old child, he learned the story of the Valar from Elrond, and met Bilbo's party as they passed through Rivendell on their way to Erebor. Arwen was the subject of the Season 2 frame. She was restless, and one of her good friends was departing by ship for the West. So, she was left thinking about the choice between remaining in Middle-earth or travelling West to be with her mother again. This juxtaposed the decisions made by the elves of Cuivienen concerning the initial journey to Valinor. For the Season 3 Frame, we returned to a teenage Aragorn, having his first adventure out in the wild with the Dunedain. They know who he is; he doesn't know who he is. His rival dies defending him.

...and then our Season 4 and 5 frames focused on other stories. Bilbo visiting the Lonely Mountain with Balin and Gandalf. Gandalf travelling to Harad in response to the news that Sauron has returned.

So, now we're ready to get back to Rivendell, and back to characters that the audience has already met. Arwen will, presumably, be returning to Rivendell to visit her father and brothers for the first time in over 20 years (her brothers did visit her in Lothlorien during the Season 2 Frame). Aragorn, now 20, will be very excited to meet her. But, as straightforward as it might seem to juxtapose the two instances of 'Tinuviel, Tinuviel!'...it's important to remember that Arwen doesn't fall in love with Aragorn until many years later. This meeting is perhaps more significant to him than to her.

So, what do we want our Frame story to be? What choice is Arwen making at this time? What is driving Aragorn to make his choice to leave Rivendell for adventures? Etc.

And, once we've determined that, how do we juxtapose specific elements of that story with the episodes planned for this season?

For instance, Beren visits his father's grave in Episode 3. Aragorn could visit Arathorn's grave in the frame. Narsil will appear in Brethil in Episode 11; the shards of Narsil can feature in the Frame. Gilraen's warning that Aragorn might not have Elrond's goodwill on this matter might contrast to Thingol Episode 5. Etc.

 

[MithLuin]

Here is the current season outline, with room for the Frame story:



Remember, the theme for the Season is Release from Bondage, so that should feature heavily in the Frame story!

 

[Odola]

Remember, the theme for the Season is Release from Bondage, so that should feature heavily in the Frame story!

1. O.k.
But we do know Arwen does not care much for the "release of bondage" herself.
She loves life and Arda and finds mortality bitter in the end and not freeing. She is not Luthien - in this regard at least not.
Arwen loves Aragorn but mortality is the price she has to pay to get him.
She does not seem spiritualy inclined and the reality that is "beyond" seems not to interest her much for itself.

She either misjudges herself (strange for an elf) or is so taken in by the Luthien story that she omits to halt to check if it really applies to her.

She admitted that she has judged the Numenorians harshly for rebelling against the Doom of Man - still that seemed not like a wondering at their misunderstanding of their Gift but more like a condemnation of their not knowing their place in the hierarchy as mortals - the way that she expressed it: "wicked fools".

2. Elrond and his son's keep Arwen's very existence a secret from Aragorn. By doing so they prevent Aragorn from coming to regard her as off-limits as a foster-sister. Why?
How comes Elrond does not warn Arwen not to show herself to his foster-son when he comes of age?
Elrond does know Arwen would be unhappy to leave Arda.
He later gives her plenty of time to change her mind by sacrificing precious life time (60 years from their 1st meeting, ca 40 from their engangement) she could have spend with her beloved (her marriage takes 120 years, so Elrond does reduce the time of A&A being together by 1/4-1/3, a substantial amount.)
So Elrond really gives Arwen plenty of time to change her mind and he seems to think giving her 60 or 40 years more with Aragorn would have still not been enough for her to become ready to leave.
So why does Elrond not prevent their meeting in the first place?
Or makes young Aragorn meet her while he is still a young child which would make her an "auntie"-figure for him?
Or is Elrond deliberately using his daughter to lure and motivate Aragorn to regain the kingship of Gondor and willingly sacrifices or at least highly reduces (by 1/4-1/3) his daughter's happiness for it?
Or does Elrond know Arwen would really enjoy being a queen (which she does) and without this element her relationship with Aragon would be too much" a loss only" for her?

3. Has Arwen been involved in Elrond's previous fosterings and has found their death to painfull and is holding herself back from Aragorn as a child so that she does not grow fond of him? Or do she and Gilraen not get along? Aragorn's mother seems to know of Arwen's existence while Aragorn did not.

Seems all very strange imho.

EDIT: Have Elrond and his son's kept Arwen's existence a secret so that Aragorn does not get offended that she does not want to see him of of fear she could get fond of him as a child? Quite norrow-minded, but would have at least some kind of logic to it?

4. Why does Elrond prevent Aragorn from marrying anybody else before he becomes king? Aragorn could very much grow tired of decades of waiting and marry are more suitable match. This way Arwen would be free to go West. Does Elrond want his brother's bloodline to go extint except for the Black Numenorians? What sense has this command? Were even Sauron to take over the world - still humans would survive somewhere and one day recover. Why let his brother's bloodline go extinct after taking do much trouble to prevent that from happening by all the fosterings?

Imho at least a part of those questions above will appear to the audience also (as they are commonly asked all over the internet).

So we can either answer them (difficult in the small amount of time)
or change Arwen's outlook on life
or change some of the circumstances
to make it make sense.

If we ignore them, imho we will lose the thinking part of the audience.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

1. O.k.
But we do know Arwen herself does not care much for the "release of bondage" herself.
She loves life and Arda and finds mortality bitter in the end and not freeing. She is not Luthien - in this regard at least not.
Arwen loves Aragorn but mortality is the price she has to pay to get him.
She does not seems spiritualy inclined and the reality beyond seems not to interest her much for itself.

She either misjudges herself (strange for an elf) or is so taken in by the Luthien story that she omits to halt to check if it really applies to herself.

She admitted that she has judged the Numenorians harshly for rebelling against the Doom of Man - still that seemed not like a wondering at their misunderstanding of their Gift but more like a condemnation of their not knowing their place in the hierarchy as mortals - the way that she expressed it: "wicked fools"?

2. Elrond and his son's keep Arwen's very existance a secret from Aragorn.
By doing so they prevent Aragorn from coming to regard her off limits as a foster-sister. Why?
How comes Elrond does not warn Arwen not to show herself to his foster son when he comes of age?
Elrond knows Arwen would be unhappy to leave Arda.
He later gives her plenty of time to change her mind by sacrificing precious life time (60 years from their 1st meeting, ca 40 from their engangement) she could have spend with her beloved (her marriage takes 120 years, so Elrond does reduce the time of A&A being together by 1/3-1/4, a substatial amount.)
So Elrond really gives Arwen time to change her mind and he seems to think giving her 60 or 40 years more with Aragorn would have still not been enough for her to become ready to leave.
So why does Elrond not prevent their meeting in the first place?
Or makes young Aragorn meet her while still a child which would make her an "auntie" figure for him?
Or is Elrond deliberately using his daughter to lure and motivate Aragorn to regain the kingship of Gondor and willingly sacrifices or at least highly reduces (by 1/3-1/4) his daughter's happiness for it?
Or does Elrond know Arwen would really enjoy being a queen (which she does) and without this element her relationship with Aragon would be too much a loss only for her?

3. Has Arwen been involved in Elrond's previous fosterings and has found their death to painfull and is holding herself back from Aragorn as a child so that she does not grow fond of him? Or does she and Gilraen not get along? Aragorn's mother seems to know of Arwen's existence while Aragorn did not. Seems all very strange.

4. Why does Elrond prevent Aragorn from marrying anybody else before he becomes king? Aragorn could very much grow tired of decades of waiting and marry are more suitable match. This way Arwen would be free to go West. Does Elrond want his brother's bloodline to go extint except for the Black Numenorians? What sense has this command? Were even Sauron to take over the world - still humans would survive somewhere and one day recover. Why let his brother's bloodline go extinct after taking do much trouble to prevent that from happening by all the fosterings?

Imho at least a part of those questions above will appear to the audience also (as they are commonly asked all over the internet).

So we can either answer them (difficult in the small amount of time)
or change Arwen's outlook on life
or change some of the circumstances
to make it make sense.

If we ignore them, imho we will lose the thinking part of the audience.

You could have it going the other way in that she chooses to bind herself to Aragorn's fate.

 

[Odola]

You could have it going the other way in that she chooses to bind herself to Aragorn's fate.

Yes, that is true, ouf course, but it does not seem like a "release from bondange" for Arwen at all - at least for her book version from the TLOTR appendices.

Arwen seems like a person who has never ever felt any real longing for a "release" from Arda, and at that moment in time she probably still is in contempt-mode for her late rebelious Numenorians cousins and still considering them "wicked fools" (according to her own words).

Here in season 6 the frame concernes just A&A's 1st meeting or does it inculde Aragorn's love being found out by Elrond and Gilraen?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Yes, that is true, ouf course, but it does not seem like a "release from bondange" for Arwen at all - at least for her book version from the TLOTR appendices.

Arwen seems like a person who has never ever felt any real longing for a "release" from Arda, and at that moment in time she probably still is in contempt-mode for her late rebelious Numenorians cousins and still considering them "wicked fools" (according to her own words).

Here in season 6 the frame concernes just A&A's 1st meeting or does it inculde Aragorn's love being found out by Elrond and Gilraen?

Have it as a contrast then.

 

[Odola]

Have it as a contrast then.

All for that myself.

 

[Odola]

Regarding spinning, it would imho be nice if in one of Arwen's frame scenes we would see her using Melian's own golden spindle and distaff set (without any special mentioning it) - golden distaffs were reportred in possessions of godesses/semi-godesses/ divine queens in ancient mythologies - like Artemis Chrysselakatos, Helen of Troy gets one in the Odyssey, Freya (or Frigga)...

"Golden spindles were sent as presents to ladies of high rank (Hom. Od. IV.131; Herod. IV.162); and a golden distaff is attributed by Homer and Pindar to goddesses, and other females of remarkable dignity, who are called χρυσηλάκατοι. " http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:entry=fusus-cn

 

[Jonah]

How about beginning Season 6 with Aragorn with the hobbits on Weathertop: "I will tell you the Tale of Tinúviel" and end with "And they have lost her whom they most loved"? The frame could include Aragorn/Arwen scenes sub-framed as Aragorn recollections.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

How about beginning Season 6 with Aragorn with the hobbits on Weathertop: "I will tell you the Tale of Tinúviel" and end with "And they have lost her whom they most loved"? The frame could include Aragorn/Arwen scenes sub-framed as Aragorn recollections.

So... one of the things we've been doing with the frame stories is keeping them in a continuous timeline, and focusing on stories that happen "off-camera" in the published text. We have a long way to go, so entering the time period of LotR wouldn't leave us much room for the next 20-something seasons.

 

[MithLuin]

Here is how we left Aragorn's story in the Season 3 frame (Season 3, Episode 13):

Frame Teaser. Estel returns to Rivendell with Elladan and Elrohir. He is greeted by his mother, who is overjoyed to see him alive and well, and Elrond, who is a bit upset with his sons for the long delay in returning Estel to his home. Estel feels that he is returning with guilt and regrets.​

​

Frame Tag. Rivendell - Elrond reprimands Elladan and Elrohir. Sauron’s fear of Estel is mentioned. Visible in the background are the Broken sword, and a painting or tapestry of Fingolfin vs Morgoth, with Ringil held aloft and Fingolfin’s heraldry displayed.​

​

Gilraen asks Estel what it was like being among Men. He is thoughtful for a moment before replying.​

​

And here is the last we saw of Arwen in Season 2's Frame:

The end point was basically the understanding that she and her mother were different people with different answers to the question and being comfortable with that.

Ie, that Celebrían and Arwen could reach different answers to the question: 'Do Elves belong in Elven-home in the west, or in Middle-earth?' Arwen has very deliberately chosen Middle-earth, and has a sense of purpose in staying there. The Season 2 finale was a two-hour double episode, so we had the first part deal with Arwen and Galadriel, and the second part focus on Arwen and Celeborn.

Frame: Arwen has been thinking about her separated family. Her mother across the Sea; her​

father and brothers in Rivendell, and her grandparents here in Lothlorien. She wants to find not​

only her own place, but where each of them can call home.​

Frame: Arwen had always thought Galadriel belonged in Lothlorien, but now wonders if she can​

do something to help her grandmother return across the Sea. Would giving up her own place​

help Galadriel’s case? Galadriel laughs in surprise and thanks her for the kind gesture, but is​

shaken by the idea that Arwen would even consider renouncing Valinor so finally.​

Frame: Galadriel tells Arwen that no one else need make any sacrifices on her account; she​

will resolve the issue of her exile on her own terms. She mentions that returning to the West​

under the conditions Arwen had suggested would be to regain her daughter at the cost of losing​

her granddaughter.​

​

Frame: Brief scene of Arwen riding on horseback under starlight.​

​

Frame: Arwen meets with Celeborn on Cerin Amroth, and expresses her frustration that there is​

no easy answer for her family to all find a home in the same place. He acknowledges that​

Middle Earth has always been his home, and he would be content that it always remain so. He​

knows it is not that easy for the Noldor.​

​

Frame: The tale of Nimrodel? Celeborn acknowledges that all anyone can do is make the best​

decision they can at that time. It is impossible to know what the future holds.​

​

Frame: Arwen expresses her sense of purpose in remaining in Middle Earth. Celeborn​

acknowledges that, should Galadriel return to the West, he will have to choose between his wife​

and Middle Earth, but for now...he has them both with him. And he is glad to have Arwen here,​

too.​

 

[MithLuin]

Regarding how much of the story to tell in this frame, I think we are looking at telling this part of the story:

20 year old Estel is told his true name and heritage by Elrond​

Aragorn meets Arwen and calls her ‘Tinuviel!’​

Gilraen warns Aragorn that he will not have Elrond’s good will in this matter​

Elrond tells Aragorn that he cannot marry until he reclaims the throne of Gondor​

Aragorn decides to go adventuring in the wild​

​

Which I would suggest breaking up in this way:​

Episodes 1-3: 20 year old Estel is told his true name and heritage by Elrond​

Episodes 4-5: Aragorn meets Arwen and calls her ‘Tinuviel!’​

Episodes 6-9: Gilraen warns Aragorn that he will not have Elrond’s good will in this matter​

Episodes 10-12: Elrond tells Aragorn that he cannot marry until he reclaims the throne of Gondor​

Episode 13: Aragorn decides to go adventuring in the wild​

​

I think the question, then, is what is Arwen's story in the Frame this season? She meets Aragorn, yes, but it makes much less of an impression on her than it does on him (seemingly). So why did she come back to Rivendell at this time? What is going on in the world is the rumor of Sauron's return. We could have scenes with Arwen and the twins or Arwen and Elrond dealing with this.

 

[Odola]

Which I would suggest breaking up in this way:​

Episodes 1-3: 20 year old Estel is told his true name and heritage by Elrond​

Episodes 4-5: Aragorn meets Arwen and calls her ‘Tinuviel!’​

Episodes 6-9: Gilraen warns Aragorn that he will not have Elrond’s good will in this matter​

Episodes 10-12: Elrond tells Aragorn that he cannot marry until he reclaims the throne of Gondor​

Episode 13: Aragorn decides to go adventuring in the wild​

​

I think the question, then, is what is Arwen's story in the Frame this season? She meets Aragorn, yes, but it makes much less of an impression on her than it does on him (seemingly). So why did she come back to Rivendell at this time? What is going on in the world is the rumor of Sauron's return. We could have scenes with Arwen and the twins or Arwen and Elrond dealing with this.

2-3 episodes for one sentence each? How much time does the frame take? Actually the last one - Aragorn's coming to a decission might take longer than all of the above took together?

Beside that - do we keep the ridiculous notion that Aragorn lived 18 years in Elrond's household as a family member and never heard of Elrond having a daughter and his forster brothers a sister? Especially as Gilraen is aware of her existence?

Edit: I do see why Findegil might find it attractive to dramatize the reveal of Arwen in this way in his story, but Elladan and Elrohir teaching the 4-5 year Estel the proper Quenya words for family members and not telling him they themselves have a sister - while having to explain to him why their mother is away (he would have asked that one himself for sure as a child)? Imho not believable at all.

Regarding Arwen in Rivendell - she seems to be visiting there - she is of age but has no fuction in her father's household - Arwen does not function a deputy for her absent mother - like Eowyn serves in Theoden's court in the place of his late queen or then his late sister - her own mother. Arwen seems to be dedicated only to her textile arts only and does not share any duties of running Rivendel like the Lady of the House would. She does not greet the guests, nor check their accomdations nor give out gifts or check on the sick. Same in Lothlorien - she is cared and provided and adviced by her grandparents but she is not shown sharing their burden in any active way.

 

[MithLuin]

Typically, the Frame is given two scenes, each 2-4 minutes long, in each episode. Frames are usually introduced in the teaser and resolved in the tag, so the season long story plays out as an arc over 13 episodes that takes about one hour of screen time in total.

 

[Odola]

Typically, the Frame is given two scenes, each 2-4 minutes long, in each episode. Frames are usually introduced in the teaser and resolved in the tag, so the season long story plays out as an arc over 13 episodes that takes about one hour of screen time in total.

Imho difficult to have an arc build this way. Do we have a full frame story written out for one of the previous season so one could compare how it is structured?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Imho difficult to have an arc build this way. Do we have a full frame story written out for one of the previous season so one could compare how it is structured?

Every one of the past seasons has included one or more discussions of this nature.

 

[Odola]

Every one of the past seasons has included one or more discussions of this nature.

No, I do not mean the discussion. A frame story script to see the arc in action?

 

[MithLuin]

The outlines of every episode of the project thus far exist, and contain the Frame scenes. You are welcome to go back and view them. The outlines are where I took the 'where did we last see Aragorn and Arwen?' scenes from.


Here is the outline for the Season 5 frame, showing how the story lines up with the individual episodes:

Script Discussion Frame Backfill Session

It would be odd because it would be like some modern person suddenly beginning to talk old english or archaic english with his family.They wouldn't mind personal names despite it is possibly an indication for being conservative -minded. I doubt the people of Ûrêlôni speak Adûnaic... they...

forums.signumuniversity.org

And here are all the Frame scenes for Season 5, listed in one continuous document without any interruption from the main story:

SFP: Season 5 Frame Outline

docs.google.com

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I think that Aragorn can know about the existence of Arwen as E&E's sister and Elrond's daughter but he does not know that she has returned to Rivendell, nor would he know what she looked like. She would be some far-distant Elf princess living among her mother's people. The encounter with Arwen is unexpected but I think he can know that Elrond has a daughter who has not been in Rivendell for some time. I don't think Arwen needs some particular motive to return to Rivendell. Returning to her Father's people after spending time with her mother's people seems natural. The chance-if-chance-you-call-it meeting with Aragorn can be framed as such - she just happens to return to Rivendell at the moment Aragorn learns of his heritage and is adult enough to fall in love with her. It will be a number of years before Arwen reciprocates this fully.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I missed the broadcast today but will catch up over the weekend. I was thinking that Arwen would have no reason to know anything of Aragorn's existence. I'm reminded of Lindir telling Bilbo that 'mortals have not been our study' (or something like that).