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Session 8-02: Adaptation Choices

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Silm Film Session 8-02 will be held on Thursday November 6th at 4 PM Eastern Time (Please note that Daylight Savings Time comes to an end in this time zone on Nov. 2nd.)

The Silmarillion Film Project is beginning Season 8 with an overview of the project thus far to remember where we have come from. Session 2 will continue this discussion with an overview of the Frame, as well as an opportunity to discuss various adaptation choices throughout the project.

Time permitting, we will begin to get into Season 8 material.

One of our first discussions will have to focus on what storylines we will include alongside the obvious mainstoryline of Túrin's life up until the Fall of Nargothrond.

Some suggestions so far are:
* Húrin's captivity in Angband, and his interactions with Morgoth
* the end of Rían's story, birth of Tuor, and Tuor's childhood.
* the outlaws in Dor-lómin, and Morwen's life there
* Celeborn and Galadriel
* Gwindor's escape from Angband
* Nargothrond politics prior to and after the arrival of Túrin; ie, what is Gil-galad up to??
* Ulmo's messengers, Turgon sending ships, how much of this will we get into prior to telling that part of Tuor's story?

Most likely, we will not be spending any significant screentime on Gondolin or the Fëanoreans in East Beleriand, but we will likely want to check in with both groups to see the consequences of the Fifth Battle with them.

And we will need to discuss Sauron's role.

Within Túrin's story, we will have Nellas, and Beleg, and even Sador Labadal, Mím the Petty-dwarf, the outlaws, and several locations to consider.

And, most importantly, we will need to choose a theme to tie this entire season together.



So...what stories do you want to see told in Season 8? And what theme would you propose for the Season?
 
I suggest the first episode deals with the consequences of the Nirnaeth, focusing on Men.
  • Rían (and possibly Hareth, depending on whether or not we want the Easterlings to kill her or drive her out to starve or accompany her to the Grey Elves and die) flees just before the Easterlings arrive, gives birth to Tuor, journeys to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth (and somehow avoids the Easterlings) and dies there.
  • Meanwhile, Morgoth does his best to get Gondolin's location out of Húrin by torture but cannot break his will... directly. So Húrin gets placed at the peak of Thangorodrim and forced to watch Morgoth take his family apart... piece by piece.
  • Morwen stays in Dor-Lómin and is pregnant with Húrin's child (later Nienor), she will be weighing whether or not to stay or go with Túrin to Doriath, though her pride seals his fate.
  • Now, I am unsure of whether or not which should plot go first in the episode

For the Fëanoreans, their power is broken by the Nirnaeth. I'd still like my idea for Maglor writing everything down throughout the last century of the First Age to be put into practice.

Sauron is perhaps the trickiest because canonically he has no role in the later two Great Tales.
  • We could have him scour the lands for Túrin throughout the events of The Children of Húrin,
    • On a related note, the sentries for the Orc party that captures Túrin are described as wolfish so Sauron could have provided them since he's the Lord of Werewolves
  • Command the forces of Morgoth on the Marches of Doriath which Túrin fights for three years,
  • Have him negotiate with Mîm once Mîm chooses to betray Túrin.
 
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An idea I’ve had is what if Galadriel tries to name herself High Queen since Turgon’s locked himself in Gondolin and there’s no one else for the good guys to rally behind.

This could be part of her “villain arc” if she tries to take power and no one trusts her after what happened with the Easterlings.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I suggest the first episode deals with the consequences of the Nirnaeth, focusing on Men.
  • Rían (and possibly Hareth, depending on whether or not we want the Easterlings to kill her or drive her out to starve or accompany her to the Grey Elves and die) flees just before the Easterlings arrive, gives birth to Tuor, journeys to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth (and somehow avoids the Easterlings) and dies there.
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Regarding Rian - we speculated about her herself having no milk after giving birth, as abandoning a newborn is usually sentencing it to die as there was not formula in ancient times and we did not want her ction to look worse than it already did... Just a reminder.
 
Odola said:
Regarding Rian - we speculated about her herself having no milk after giving birth, as abandoning a newborn is usually sentencing it to die as there was not formula in ancient times and we did not want her ction to look worse than it already did... Just a reminder.
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What do you suggest instead? In the book, she gives birth, leaves Tuor with the Grey Elves, goes to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, dies there, end of her story. Either she dies in childbirth or takes him all the way to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth and leaves him to toddle all the way back.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
What do you suggest instead? In the book, she gives birth, leaves Tuor with the Grey Elves, goes to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, dies there, end of her story. Either she dies in childbirth or takes him all the way to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth and leaves him to toddle all the way back.
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we spoke before it should be clear that the elves are able to keep him alive = already found a way to substitute breastmilk - which they would not have done if she have had her own... We also spoke that in her state and depression it was quite fitting and likely she would have none of her own at giving birth.
 
Odola said:
we spoke before it should be clear that the elves are able to keep him alive = already found a way to substitute breastmilk - which they would not have done if she have had her own... We also spoke that in her state and depression it was quite fitting and likely she would have none of her own at giving birth.
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True.

For themes, would prophecy and choice be a theme in mind for this season? Morgoth places a curse on Húrin and his family that everything they do will end in misfortune, but how much is from the curse or their own choices? Morwen sends Túrin away for his safety, but was there any chance his fate could have been averted had she chosen to accompany him to Doriath? Thingol pardons Túrin and allows him the opportunity to return to Doriath forgiven, but Túrin chooses to reject the pardon. Gwindor claims that Finduilas is the only one who can save Túrin from his doom. How so? If Túrin had been a step quicker and able to kill Glaurung outside Nargothrond, would he have been able to save her?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Morgoth places a curse on Húrin and his family that everything they do will end in misfortune, but how much is from the curse or their own choices?
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Imho this should be somewhat ambivalent and for the audience to ponder. It is the old "nature vs nurture vs free will" debate which does not have a clear resolution even in real-life. Elves view it more fatalistically, later Men more choice-based, but those are both more various perspectives than a difference of matter.
 
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Going off of my earlier Galadriel pitch, I think Gil-Galad should be the one who doesn’t trust her, and he eventually sets himself up as a rival claimant for the High Kingship.

I think this would be a good way of giving both of those characters stuff to do without getting in the way of the Turin story.
 
Cyclops of Krakoa said:
Going off of my earlier Galadriel pitch, I think Gil-Galad should be the one who doesn’t trust her, and he eventually sets himself up as a rival claimant for the High Kingship.

I think this would be a good way of giving both of those characters stuff to do without getting in the way of the Turin story.
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Well, Turgon is still alive yet? As such her claim would be very strange, both as an elvish woman and a cousin of an actually living High-King she would be simply ignored by the Noldor. As she never had a Noldorin following/ host of her own, this would be very easily dismissed - she has no means to enforce any such claim, as she spent the last centuries among Sindar and Green-elves?
 
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Odola said:
Well Turgon is still alive yet? As such her claim would be very strange, both as a elvish woman and a cousin of an actually living High-King she would be simply ignored by the Noldor. As she never had a Noldorin following/ host on her own, this would be very easily dimissed - she has no means to enforce any such claim, as she spent the last centuries among Sindar and Green-elves?
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Galadriel doesn’t have to succeed in any way, it could just be her making these big plans and then failing at every turn, in order to parallel with what goes on with Turin.
 
Odola said:
Well Turgon is still alive yet? As such her claim would be very strange, both as a elvish woman and a cousin of an actually living High-King she would be simply ignored by the Noldor. As she never had a Noldorin following/ host on her own, this would be very easily dimissed - she has no means to enforce any such claim, as she spent the last centuries among Sindar and Green-elves?
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I could see her argument that as long as Turgon hides in Gondolin, he cannot be the king of the Noldor as he is not actually ruling them. If we go by a seniority claim (following the argument Maedhros makes to give Fingolfin the crown), she could say her claim is stronger than Orodreth's as she is his elder.
RE: The woman stuff, I could definitely see her claiming that she is mighty enough for that not to make a difference. She is the greatest of the Eldar after Fëanor, after all.
And while I do not think she needs to  succeed in this endeavor, I am not opposed to her attempting to rule.
 
I agree that the tension between fate and free will (or prophecy and choice) is an important aspect of Turin's story. As we discussed in the first session, that's also part of Tuor's story. And honestly, more appropriate to Season 9.
 
Based on Session 7-01 and Session 8-01, I have the following list of storylines to include in this season:

•the aftermath of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad throughout Beleriand
•End of Rían’s story
•Húrin’s captivity in Angband and curse by Morgoth
•Easterlings in Dor-lómin (continue Morwen’s story)
•Escape of Gwindor
•Turgon will send ships to Valinor
•Túrin’s fostering in Doriath (Nellas and Saeros)
•Tuor’s childhood with Annael
•Túrin’s outlaw days and Mîm at Amon Rûdh
•Tuor’s time as a slave, and his escape
•the death of Beleg
•Ulmo's messengers, Arminas and Gelmir
•Túrin in Nargothrond, and Nargothrond before and after
•the fall of Nargothrond, focusing on Túrin’s role.
•Tuor’s meeting with Ulmo at Nevrast (pairs with Túrin meeting Glaurung)
•TBD – something for Galadriel, Sauron, and Gil-galad to do

That will have the story beginning in FA 472 (immediate aftermath of the battle) and ending in FA 495. So, we have about 23 years to work with, making this longer than the past two seasons, which were each shorter, but still a much more abbreviated time frame than our first 5 seasons.
 
No, Handir survived the Nirnaeth (unlike his father Haldir). So yes, we will want to kill him this season.
 
Since last season was about on amdir and estel, I think this season’s theme could be failure and next season be despair.

I think those two also go along with the free will vs fate stuff everyone’s been talking about with failure on the free will side and despair on the fate side.
 
We are looking at lots of ways of handling 'defeat' (or 'after the apocalypse') - how do the different individuals and societies respond?
 
57:00. I wasn't keen on Narsil going to the House of Húrin since there's no way to get it from Dor-Lómin without getting destroyed by the Easterlings. Now there's nobody to recover it from the Fens of Serech; Húrin was the lone survivor of his army and nobody goes back there. Rían isn't going to return from the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, Gwindor has no reason to recover the sword and is making a beeline for Nargothrond after Túrin kills Beleg by accident, Morwen and Nienor aren't going to go out of their way to find the sword on their way to Doriath or Nargothrond, Túrin doesn't pass by there on the way back to Dor-Lómin. I don't really see a solution on how it could reenter the story based on where our characters are going to be.
 
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