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Session 8-10: Galadriel
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
As a reminder of "what is happening" for the rest of the First Age in general....here's what we said back in Session 7-01
Here's my notes from the session; hopefully I captured most of what was supposed to be where:
Planning the rest of the First Age for Silm Film:
Here's my notes from the session; hopefully I captured most of what was supposed to be where:
Planning the rest of the First Age for Silm Film:
- Season 7 will begin with Húrin and Huor in Gondolin, and end with them in the Fens of Serech, bookending the season with their interactions with Turgon.
- Season 8 will begin with the aftermath of the Nirnaeth, Túrin’s fostering in Doriath, and Tuor’s childhood with Annael. It will include Túrin’s outlaw days, the death of Beleg,
and the fall of Nargothrond, focusing on Túrin’s poor decisions. Tuor’s story will take him through his time as a slave, his escape,to his meeting with Ulmo at Nevrast. This will pair with Túrin meeting Glaurung. Also in this season, Turgon will send ships to Valinor and we will see Húrin’s captivity in Angband and curse. - Season 9 will begin with [the fall of Nargothrond and Tuor's meeting with Ulmo at Nevrast.] Túrin heading north to Dor-lómin and Tuor journeying with Voronwë. The two cousins will meet at the Pools of Ivrin, but not recognize one another’s names. Tuor’s story will culminate in delivering the message of Ulmo to Turgon, who ultimately rejects it. Idril builds a tunnel. Túrin will become Turambar - now, all of his choices are fated to go wrong. He goes to Brethil and marries Niniel. He kills Glaurung. It has been proposed that Húrin be released from Angband early, so that he is trying to find/reach Túrin, but does not know that he is in Brethil, so is not successful in getting there in time. Possible delivery of the Nauglamír to Thingol in Doriath in this season. Final episode of season will not be Túrin-centric - either Húrin or Nienor would be the likely protagonist. Choosing to emphasize the role of Glaurung as Túrin’s foe will likely mean not concealing the identity of Niniel from the audience. Still much to discuss!
- Season 10 will tell the story of the Fall of Gondolin and the first sack of Doriath. The Doriath story will begin with the story of Thingol and the Nauglamír, leading to his death, and the deaths of the dwarves who killed him (at the hands of the Fëanoreans), while Melian delivers the Nauglamír to Lúthien in Tol Galen. Dior will come to Doriath. Final moment of Beren/Lúthien? Meanwhile, Tuor and Idril will develop a romance and wed, to the dismay of Maeglin. Years of bliss with young Eärendil in Gondolin. Then, Maeglin’s capture, betrayal, and the fall of the city. Death of Glorfindel as the refugees escape.
- Season 11 will be a wonderful season where very little happens, but we get to tell some great stories that we invent! The refugees of Gondolin will come to the mouths of the River Sirion, meeting up with refugees from Nargothrond and elsewhere in Beleriand. The founding of the Havens under the guidance of Círdan. Contrast between running away vs staying to fight/survive/do something. Eärendil’s early journeys, which are ultimately unsuccessful at reaching the West. Dior, meanwhile, is rebuilding the kingdom of Doriath, without Thingol, without Melian, and without the Girdle. But with the Nauglamír. And so we will have the story of the Second Kinslaying, and explain how the Fëanoreans regrouped after the 5th battle and their failure to win the silmaril from the dwarves. Ultimately, they decide to fulfill their oath at all costs, and there is much loss of life in Doriath as a result (including their own). Elwing (now grown) makes her way to the Havens of Siron after the second sack of Doriath. Not clear yet where the wedding of Eärendil and Elwing fits - could be end of this season or beginning of the next.
- Season 12 will be the final season of the First Age. We will have Eärendil set out on his last voyage, saying farewell to little Elrond and Elros. We will have the Third Kinslaying at the Havens, leading to the retreat to the Isle of Balar. We will have Maglor fostering Elrond and Elros. Eärendil and Elwing will arrive in Valinor with the silmaril, leading to the Host of the Valar returning for the War of Wrath and Eärendil becoming Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope (and fighting Ancalagon). The War of Wrath will culminate in Morgoth being cast into the Void. The final kinslaying will result in the final resting places of the silmarils.
- Save for the Second Age: Sauron’s attempted repentance, The choices of Elrond and Elros?
Here is the revised plan of what we came up with in Thursday's session:
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Octoburn
Active Member
I will preface these comments by mentioning that I am still way behind on SilmFilm. Currently on session 7-23, trying to catch up.
That said, has it ever been determined when within the timeline Galadriel will head East to start her own kingdom?
Galadriel led the Easterlings to Beleriand. Without them, the Union may have never been fulfilled. But also, without them, their betrayal would have never lead to the literal Unnumbered Tears. How does she feel about that, at this point? Does she blame herself? Does she blame (or even know to blame) Sauron?
Personally, I feel she may take it personal. It may have her doubting her leadership abilities and role. I think all this obviously affects her trajectory from here on.
Do we want to spend a few seasons building her confidence back up, before having her aspire to leadership again? Does she return to Ossiriand (I believe that was her home now?) or does she isolate herself from most, outside of Celeborn?
When will Celebrian enter the picture?
I know this is all questions, more than true discussion, but it's jumping off points, and I'm not really coming up with what to do with her outside of answering these questions first.
That said, has it ever been determined when within the timeline Galadriel will head East to start her own kingdom?
Galadriel led the Easterlings to Beleriand. Without them, the Union may have never been fulfilled. But also, without them, their betrayal would have never lead to the literal Unnumbered Tears. How does she feel about that, at this point? Does she blame herself? Does she blame (or even know to blame) Sauron?
Personally, I feel she may take it personal. It may have her doubting her leadership abilities and role. I think all this obviously affects her trajectory from here on.
Do we want to spend a few seasons building her confidence back up, before having her aspire to leadership again? Does she return to Ossiriand (I believe that was her home now?) or does she isolate herself from most, outside of Celeborn?
When will Celebrian enter the picture?
I know this is all questions, more than true discussion, but it's jumping off points, and I'm not really coming up with what to do with her outside of answering these questions first.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Well, will she not have to been there to witness at least the birth of Dior in Ossiriand, if not assist his wedding to Nimloth?
But imho Galadriel should be off before Dior and Nimloth get killed, as imho - if she were still there, she would then have fostered little Elwing herself, if not even going with her husband on a revenge spree against her cousins for killing Dior's family, minors included?
But I would love it if she would have met little Earendil in the Havens of Sirion before leaving, given how fond she will be of his light in future, so I am a little torn there...
But what if she would have met him there in passing, and would then left on a ship from the Havens of Sirion - but East, instead of West? And then sail up the Brandywine towards Lake Evendim? Maybe camping just East of the future Shire? This would be still part of the Old Forest as yet and could stay undetected by the "Emperor's of future Bree"-folk?
But imho Galadriel should be off before Dior and Nimloth get killed, as imho - if she were still there, she would then have fostered little Elwing herself, if not even going with her husband on a revenge spree against her cousins for killing Dior's family, minors included?
But I would love it if she would have met little Earendil in the Havens of Sirion before leaving, given how fond she will be of his light in future, so I am a little torn there...
But what if she would have met him there in passing, and would then left on a ship from the Havens of Sirion - but East, instead of West? And then sail up the Brandywine towards Lake Evendim? Maybe camping just East of the future Shire? This would be still part of the Old Forest as yet and could stay undetected by the "Emperor's of future Bree"-folk?
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Galadriel said she crossed the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin. But LUCKILY, we did have her cross the mountains last season, so technically we can have her stay in Beleriand as long as we like and still not negate that statement. We have not yet decided on the roles of Celeborn or Galadriel in any of the further Doriath stories, or when they leave over the mountains.
We do want Galadriel to have an arc for the rest of the First Age. We still need to figure out what that story is. The aftermath of the Nirnaeth will definitely involve some guilt on her part. Not only did the betrayal catch her by surprise, but she lost a friend when Bór died. We don't want to have the story be a repeat of her story after the Kinslaying. So, she has more responsibility for what happened this time. And yes, I think more self-recrimination and doubts. What will that be like for her? She is not yet ready for a realm of her own, but she's headed that way. Sowhwat is her next step there?
Young Dior and Galadriel will both be in Doriath at the beginning of this season. The reason to have Dior in the story at this point is to emphasize what it's like for a human child to grow up. We'll compare him with Túrin, who is his same age. But if Thingol wants to know more about humans, and Galadriel just spent a lot of time with humans, there might be reason to have conversations there.
We will be using Galadriel as an ambassador from Thingol to the Sons of Fëanor this season.
We do need to make decisions about whether or not Galadriel and Celeborn are present during the first attack on Doriath (dwarves) and/or the second kinslaying. And how and why they end up leaving. I imagine that the intention is for them to cross the mountains, not flee by boat and then sail east, but we can discuss.
As for Celebrían, that will most likely be a 2nd age story.
We do want Galadriel to have an arc for the rest of the First Age. We still need to figure out what that story is. The aftermath of the Nirnaeth will definitely involve some guilt on her part. Not only did the betrayal catch her by surprise, but she lost a friend when Bór died. We don't want to have the story be a repeat of her story after the Kinslaying. So, she has more responsibility for what happened this time. And yes, I think more self-recrimination and doubts. What will that be like for her? She is not yet ready for a realm of her own, but she's headed that way. Sowhwat is her next step there?
Young Dior and Galadriel will both be in Doriath at the beginning of this season. The reason to have Dior in the story at this point is to emphasize what it's like for a human child to grow up. We'll compare him with Túrin, who is his same age. But if Thingol wants to know more about humans, and Galadriel just spent a lot of time with humans, there might be reason to have conversations there.
We will be using Galadriel as an ambassador from Thingol to the Sons of Fëanor this season.
We do need to make decisions about whether or not Galadriel and Celeborn are present during the first attack on Doriath (dwarves) and/or the second kinslaying. And how and why they end up leaving. I imagine that the intention is for them to cross the mountains, not flee by boat and then sail east, but we can discuss.
As for Celebrían, that will most likely be a 2nd age story.
We focused on how Galadriel will end the First Age with her refusal to return to Valinor, rejecting the pardon offered to the Noldor. And so we won't want her to go over the mountains too early to not be around the (new) coast for that.
We are differentiating Season 4 Galadriel (who was coping with the Kinslaying,the death of her mother, etc) from current Galadriel because she has more anger now and takes less blame on herself for what happened.
For this season, Galadriel's story will be going to the Fëanoreans in response to the letter they send Thingol. Her goal is to talk them down. She is dealing with Curufin, but Maedhros is not present. She is blamed for the failure of the Nirnaeth (or at least for the betrayal of the Easterlings that she recruited), which angers her. Maglor agrees to take her to Maedrhos/tell her where he is (hanging out on his own in Ossiriand), and in that conversation, she begins to articulate that the failure (well, specifically the betrayal) had something to do with Morgoth. Bor and Ulfang didn't betray them, and Ulfang dying on the eve of battle turns out to be rather suspicious, looking back. ....
The Noldor have not yet put together Sauron's role in the First Age, but they've experienced enough of his interference to recognize a pattern. Melian knows that Sauron was behind the spider attack that lead to the Girdle (and may know that he is Mairon?) Maedhros has encountered him on several occasions now - in person and as himself when he falsely bargained for the silmaril and took Maedhros captive, indirectly at the Mereth Aderthad where he was in disguise but present and active (probably only Lúthien truly perceived what he was doing, but many elves felt the effect), and second hand when Amlach came to him to join the fight against Morgoth after being impersonated by "someone".
Galadriel is realizing she has someone to be angry at. Not in this season, but later, she will be putting together more and more of Sauron's actions, and recognizing that he is an enemy of the Noldor, and someone she can counter directly. So, she is going to be setting up as the enemy of Sauron, which will allow us to give him plots that she can thwart (or attempt to thwart, at any rate).
We are differentiating Season 4 Galadriel (who was coping with the Kinslaying,the death of her mother, etc) from current Galadriel because she has more anger now and takes less blame on herself for what happened.
For this season, Galadriel's story will be going to the Fëanoreans in response to the letter they send Thingol. Her goal is to talk them down. She is dealing with Curufin, but Maedhros is not present. She is blamed for the failure of the Nirnaeth (or at least for the betrayal of the Easterlings that she recruited), which angers her. Maglor agrees to take her to Maedrhos/tell her where he is (hanging out on his own in Ossiriand), and in that conversation, she begins to articulate that the failure (well, specifically the betrayal) had something to do with Morgoth. Bor and Ulfang didn't betray them, and Ulfang dying on the eve of battle turns out to be rather suspicious, looking back. ....
The Noldor have not yet put together Sauron's role in the First Age, but they've experienced enough of his interference to recognize a pattern. Melian knows that Sauron was behind the spider attack that lead to the Girdle (and may know that he is Mairon?) Maedhros has encountered him on several occasions now - in person and as himself when he falsely bargained for the silmaril and took Maedhros captive, indirectly at the Mereth Aderthad where he was in disguise but present and active (probably only Lúthien truly perceived what he was doing, but many elves felt the effect), and second hand when Amlach came to him to join the fight against Morgoth after being impersonated by "someone".
Galadriel is realizing she has someone to be angry at. Not in this season, but later, she will be putting together more and more of Sauron's actions, and recognizing that he is an enemy of the Noldor, and someone she can counter directly. So, she is going to be setting up as the enemy of Sauron, which will allow us to give him plots that she can thwart (or attempt to thwart, at any rate).
One thing that I think can and should influence Galadriel's taste for isolationism is what happens to Nargothrond next season. Also being distrustful of Men. She explicitly calls out the fall of Nargothrond in LotR, so it's clearly still on her mind over 6000 years later.
Odola
Well-Known Member
The way she does mach-making for Aragorn does not look like she is distrusful of Men. Is seems the reverse, Men are distrusful of her - see the Rohirrim.
My idea for Galadriel this season is that she could be involved with Dior: Turin looks up to Beleg and Mablung while Dior looks up to Celeborn and Galadriel.
For future seasons, I would include Galadriel and Celeborn in taking the news of Thingol's death to Beren and then joining the Ents attacking the dwarves (that is really interesting since later Galadriel will become friends with the dwarves of Moria and with Gimli).
A really cool plot could be that Galadriel joins the Ents around the Old Forest and they all work to undermine the Empire of Bree.
She would not be in the mouth of Sirion but she would be around when the Grey Havens are built, and that is when she rejects going to Valinor and decides to go to Eregion.
For future seasons, I would include Galadriel and Celeborn in taking the news of Thingol's death to Beren and then joining the Ents attacking the dwarves (that is really interesting since later Galadriel will become friends with the dwarves of Moria and with Gimli).
A really cool plot could be that Galadriel joins the Ents around the Old Forest and they all work to undermine the Empire of Bree.
She would not be in the mouth of Sirion but she would be around when the Grey Havens are built, and that is when she rejects going to Valinor and decides to go to Eregion.
Odola
Well-Known Member
But she would miss Earendil then, and I think she should see him at least once, as much as his light later means for her. Or is her connection to it only the mere fact that it happens to be the very same Silmaril that she has seen in Doriath in Thingol's possession?
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I really like the idea of Galadriel trying to figure out Sauron, but I think she doesn't uncover everything. Sauron has many names: Mairon, Sauron, Thu, Annatar, the Necromancer...
I would say Galadriel makes the connection that Mairon is one of Morgoth's lieutenants, which leads to him fleeing from Eonwe, but she only links it to Thu (and to Finrod's death) once the Necromancer comes to Dol Guldur in the Third age.
Octoburn
Active Member
While listening to this session, I had a question.
While discussing Galadriel seeking Maedhros and the sons of Feanor, it's said they are wandering Ossiriand.
Is it never established that they take up Amon Ereb as a stronghold? I found in S05E13 that Caranthir and Amras are said to "establish themselves" on Amon Ereb, but I don't think it's been mentioned since.
Is this something that was overlooked that should have been covered post-Bragollach, or is it something we can cover now, post-Nirnaeth?
As a side question, when will script discussions start for this season? Are they still broadcast on twitch? I'd like to at least listen in on this season, as the Children of Hurin is my favorite book ever. Not just Tolkien, but favorite, period.
While discussing Galadriel seeking Maedhros and the sons of Feanor, it's said they are wandering Ossiriand.
Is it never established that they take up Amon Ereb as a stronghold? I found in S05E13 that Caranthir and Amras are said to "establish themselves" on Amon Ereb, but I don't think it's been mentioned since.
Is this something that was overlooked that should have been covered post-Bragollach, or is it something we can cover now, post-Nirnaeth?
As a side question, when will script discussions start for this season? Are they still broadcast on twitch? I'd like to at least listen in on this season, as the Children of Hurin is my favorite book ever. Not just Tolkien, but favorite, period.
Our first script discussion for Season 8 will be held on Friday May 22nd at 8 PM Eastern time! The intention is to broadcast them on Twitch, yes.
Fable_Teller
New Member
Not really related to this thread's topic, but isn't this out of order? According to Tolkien Gateway's timeline, the Fall of Gondolin is after the Second Kingslaying/Ruin of Doriath. I can see why we might want to rearrange events so Doriath doesn't get sacked twice in one season, I just want to clarify if it's a divergence from the timeline in the text. Also, isn't part of Gondolin's mystique that it was the longest-enduring and last to fall of all the great elf strongholds? How would putting Doriath's second ruin after it change that?