Swords

and there's a good reason for it as sindarin crist DOES in fact mean cleaver sword. but i'm still sceptical about the idea... the magic swords of the elves and dunedain seem to represent a different kind of magic than saurin's rings.doesn't mean it can't be done, but still would depend on how yoz do it and not fall inri the ring-trap...
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Still like the idea of a single-edged sword; must be from my background as a fencer.
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I suppose you have worked primarily with sabers, the only modern fencing weapon that meets that description. Regardless, I'm not sure what you mean here. Did someone suggest that Orcrist ve something other than a single-edged weapon?
 
well in most depictions i recall (other than the hobbit movies) the swords of gondolin are bastard swords, classical two edged weapons. however we know that tolkien was fond of falchions and scramasax - and he does use terms like great sword, falchion, cleaver and long knife (langmesser) in connection with elven weapons. ..

his paintings have little detail, but some of the swords he painted may be interpreted as scramasax-like weapons (others look like celtic, roman or medieval arming swords though).

i definitely think the elves should have different sword types, at least greatswords,langmessers and cleaversword/falchion-like types.
 
So, a Messer like this:

36c9012114934591b524e338c0b4ebc0.jpg


perhaps a bit more ornate, but that seems to me a fine Goblin-Cleaver, with a far more advanced guard than in the Hobbit films. It also has the advantage of being an easy mate to a regular longsword for Glamdring.
 
there are of course many kinds if langmessers, personally i'd go fir a longer and more straight bladed variant, but basically, yes that's the kind of weapon we're talking about.

the weapon variously known as warbrand/short glaive/glaive sword/chopper/morgan sword should also be a possuble elf-weapon type...
 
Speaking of maligned swords from the films, I wanted to talk about the one used as the front-line battlefield weapon by elves. You know, with the weirdly long handle. Turns out, they might not have made the thing up. It closely resembles this:

TFW_Panabas.jpg


Now, some cursory research on the Panabas has revealed that, sadly, it is not a front line weapon. It was typically used by reserve forces for mopping up. It requires relatively little strength and training to use, and is also used as an axe. And doesn't it make a much more elegant axe than the ones we currently use?

I would be alright with seeing this used by Nandor auxiliaries, a tool they have brought from home.
 
Haerangil said:
there are of course many kinds if langmessers, personally i'd go fir a longer and more straight bladed variant, but basically, yes that's the kind of weapon we're talking about.

the weapon variously known as warbrand/short glaive/glaive sword/chopper/morgan sword should also be a possuble elf-weapon type...
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I don't know about longer. That's a super-long sword for any time before the advent of gunpowder.
 
it doesn't look that long on the picture, but ok.

in german it's a bit confusing to talk about messer weapons as we distinguish between the langmesser, langes messer and grosses messer. langmesser is basically a big knife (any type of one-edged knife or straight bladed saber between 30-75 cm), grosses messer is a single-edged seax-like sword about 1 m in length and grosses messer is a curved sabre-like weapon up to 1,5 m in length... it seems to be even more confusing I see that langes messer in english language articles refers to a shorter weapon about 75 cm in length... it's getting hard to keep up with all this.



one thing: apart from historicity if course, just like the jackson movies, we don't have to stick to realism.

elves were great smiths and their weapons easily could have been lighter, yet harder and still more elegant than our historical models. so in a way we could imagine our own personal supersword here...

what would be a foe-hammer or orc-cleaver to you? to me a hammer-sword or hammer-blade would mean a very heavy, probably very large or long sword, yet we know it was light enough to be wield single-handed. optically i do like weapons of the estoc-type as they seem elegant to me. so in this case maybe a super light but enkarged estoc with a longer one-edged blade?

as for the curved model you've mentioned... there definitely should be a curved type too... giving it to the eastern elves would fit and also could hint towards a possible orc-connection here... so i like your idea. i always thought the curved pj-elven swords were based on warbrands or sword-glaives... but the similarity is stunning!
 
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The Estoc is basically the turning point in technology. Longswords had developed more and more acute points to deal with improving armor. The estoc is the pinnacle of this, sacrificing cutting ability for armor-piercing thrusts. If we gave the elves this type of weapon, we would need to have thickly armored opponents which spur this development. That's fine, we just need to consider the ramifications.

As to the weapon pictured above, I think part of the problem is my limited understanding of German. That sword is a Gross Messer, a two-handed weapon about 1.5 meters in length.

Now when I think of the Foe-hammer, I do think of bludgeoning weapons, but against armored opponents, that is precisely what a sword without an acute point is. Let me go to work on that for a bit.
 
Actually, having thought about this, the typical cruciform sword was often used as a warhammer against armored opponents. What if that is what is meant here?

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it's confusing even for german speakers... as i said grosses messer usually refers to a great more sabre-like weapon with a more curved blade, so optically i thought your picture was a far shorter langes messer type, but most of these categorizations are used inconsistant throughout history and our modern terms were coined/standardized by historians and antiquars. some people put both types basically in the same category but say grosses messer is basically just the larger bastard or two-handed variant of a langes messer, they aldo call it kriegsmesser or battle- or war-knife to avoid confusion.there seemingly were more and less curved and sabre-like variants in both categories... even i didn't know this and had to luck it up for clarification as the terms are often used inconsistently.well... you never stoo learning...

tolkien used long knife, big knife, great knife... hard to say what he had in mind, but recently somebody mentioned that jrrt was into historical reenactment.. i don't know if that is actually true, but if it is he might have known more about weapons and armour than we readers usually might think.

a piercing sword like the estoc could make sense against enemies like balrogs, but not agains orcs in chainmail and ringmail... i was more thinking of a fantastic sword type which combined the opportunities of several sword types rather than an estoc per se.

the sword-hammer example is intriguing... but i can't really imagine the elces fighting this style... again, against chain- and ringmailed opponents it would't make much sense...

at the moment i prefer to interprete hammer and cleaver rather as sort of kennings, than accurate descriptions.but i think we'll come up with a good solution by time...
 
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Nicholas Palazzo said:
I suppose you have worked primarily with sabers, the only modern fencing weapon that meets that description. Regardless, I'm not sure what you mean here. Did someone suggest that Orcrist ve something other than a single-edged weapon?
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No, it's more like I'd like to see more single-edged weapons in the story other than Orcrist, which I support being a single-edged weapon.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
No, it's more like I'd like to see more single-edged weapons in the story other than Orcrist, which I support being a single-edged weapon.
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I am sure there will be ample opportunity. We won't see "modern" cavalry sabers, but there are plenty of blades from the khopesh on down through Gross Messer pictured above, to the single-edged viking sword someone else suggested.
 
Side note about the swords: are we going to name blades not given proper names by Tolkien? It always seemed a shame to me that Feanor's sword, for example, never got a name, and naming blades seems a way of establishing notes of character, for example (off the top of my head): naming a blade 'friend's guard" sets a very different idea of a wielder than "foe's misery".

Just a thought.
 
Feanor's sword name ideas as fast as I can type them (in English):
Gift to the Noldor (the small words "to the" are what make me like this one)
Light of Pride or Pride of the Light
Without Remorse or Remorseless (not sure which is better)
Promisekeeper (anything with "oath" is a bit too on the nose)
Doombringer
 
amysrevenge said:
Without Remorse or Remorseless (not sure which is better)
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Twisting this a touch, I think I'd prefer the name "Pitiless".

Otherwise, I like the idea of punning, slightly, with some of his actions, but rather than the Oath, how about his drawing his sword on Fingolfin. I'm going to go look up the text, see if any of his lines could be punned.
 
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