Swords

Round shields are great for infantry and cavalry both. Kite or reverse teardrop shields are good for infantry, not so good for cavalry (the horse gets in the way if you try to protect your right side with it).

Heater shields were late development of kite shields so that they could be used on horseback.

Lozenge shapes were not, to my knowledge, used on shields. They were specifically the coat of arms shapes for women who were not going to be in combat.

And yes, I do think we'd see a few mithril shields, but I do not believe you would see many of them, even in the second age.

Do we know specifically when Mithril as it is used in armor is developed?
 
Some of the Men may use Celtic shields, perhaps. I'm not suggesting that Men use a lot of shields, not to begin with at least, but some of them could, and I think the Celtic (sometimes called Greek, it seems?) would be cool.
 
This?

celtic-shield_2.jpg


I approve.
 
MithLuin said:
The value of Bilbo's shirt of mithril rings is influenced by Moria being shut down and the sole source of mithril cut off. No one is producing any more, so all existing items are rare one-of-a-kind collectors items.

However, in its heyday, when Moria was more Khazad-dum than 'dark pit', they likely could produce many items that would have been impossible later. Gil-galad is the last High King of the Noldor - if anyone gets a fancy mithril shield, it's him. (Well, okay, technically Celebrimbor is in a better position to get one, but he doesn't get much of a heroic last stand in battle; he's taken in a raid and used as a banner afterwards, so Sauron was going for 'ignoble death' with him.)

Mithril has a lot of the same properties of aluminum (light weight, doesn't rust/corrode, shiny silver color), but is magically hard as steel. So, if we think of it as a metal that could be worked like aluminum, but not stay soft like aluminum, that should give us some ideas as to the possibilities.

Gil-galad's shield should be reminiscent of Fingolfin's, I think, if only because their fates are so similar.
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The Dwarrow Scholar actually has a post which touches upon the amount of mithril in the world of Middle Earth, and he estimates it to be about 600 kilos, total.
https://dwarrowscholar.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/delving-the-dwarrowdelf/ (final section is about mithril)

You could challenge some of his assumptions/figures (I for one think he's guestimating a bit low), but I don't think we're ever lead to believe that the dwarves of Dwarrowdelf were swimming in the stuff. So I'd suggest that, rather than having shields of solid mithril, we have shields made of wood but covered in mithril in certain key occasions -- Gil-Galad's being the most obvious example.


Ange1e4e5 said:
Wait... how did they use Celebrimbor as a banner?
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I don't remember if it's ever specified how, exactly, Sauron does this, but I imagine he's nailed to a large pole, much like in a crucifixion. Or perhaps spiked through the throat, or by some other lovely means.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I am sure there will be ample opportunity. We won't see "modern" cavalry sabers, but there are plenty of blades from the khopesh on down through Gross Messer pictured above, to the single-edged viking sword someone else suggested.
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Maybe not the khopesh, I keep seeing this scene where a guy wielding a similar weapon got it stuck in the curve in someone's armor and got himself killed.
 
The people of the House of Marach could use the longer Celtic shields and the people of Beor or Haleth's people could use the Greek type, as a suggestion.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Wait... how did they use Celebrimbor as a banner?
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What Marielle said. I imagine a pike stuck through his back, but whatever; his dead body was carried around and displayed by Sauron's army somehow.

Here are the first three artist's interpretations found on an image search for 'Celebrimbor banner' (search for 'Celebrimbor Annatar' at your own risk, though I suppose all of that is rather mild compared to this):

celebrimbor_s_death_by_peet-d88r4e4.jpg

peet on deviant art, I think.

And another:
The_death_of_celebrimbor_by_abepapakhian-d53u6xk.jpg

'The Death of Celebrimbor' by abepapakhian

Or this one by Kaaile on deviant art:
c897df630332af3d4293538f9eb7972b.jpg


(I realize that at this point, *everyone* is regretting asking that question, but, well, I'm an engineer, and this is a physics problem, so.....turns out there are a variety of solutions.)


Marielle said:
So I'd suggest that, rather than having shields of solid mithril, we have shields made of wood but covered in mithril in certain key occasions -- Gil-Galad's being the most obvious example.
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Yes! I was definitely thinking mithril-coated rather than solid mithril.

According to Gandalf, Moria is the only place in the world you can find mithril, so it would have to be extremely rare in 1st Age Beleriand.
 
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MithLuin said:
Yes! I was definitely thinking mithril-coated rather than solid mithril.

According to Gandalf, Moria is the only place in the world you can find mithril, so it would have to be extremely rare in 1st Age Beleriand.
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Yes; we haven't even thought about how much, if any, trade goes between Kazad-dum and Beleriand! Surely any comes first to the dwarves of Belegost or Nogrod, and through them to the elves and men. So yes, mithril will be very, very rare to our man characters, even more so than it actually is... and I'm thinking they don't ever mine more than would fit in a cube 5x10 m (contrasting with the best estimate of gold in the world, which would fit in a cube 50x50 m (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21969100), and even that might be too much. This stuff has to be special. Like, "I'm an elf of Gondolin, and I've never even seen it!" rare. Even more rare than the valyrian steel of GoT, since multiple noble families have heirlooms of it.

For comparison, this party tent is 5x10 meters:
images
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Round shields are great for infantry and cavalry both

Lozenge shapes were not, to my knowledge, used on shields.

Do we know specifically when Mithril as it is used in armor is developed?
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cavalry roundshields might be smaller, some of the infantry models were quite huge...

lozenge shaped bucklers are known from pictish stones, that's the only example i know.

i also think mithril still should be the exception. a few selected magical weapons and armour could be made of mithril..
 
What we know about mithril:

"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim."

Mithril was worth ten times as much as gold while it was still being mined. So, one could assume that it was 10x as rare as gold (roughly). And then, of course, it became more rare and valuable after Moria fell to the balrog.

Very few items are called out by Tolkien as being made of mithril. It's rare stuff, and we should consider carefully where employing it. Bilbo's mithril coat gifted to him by Thorin from the hoard at Erebor is obviously the most famous, but also ithildin* on the Gate of Moria [dating from the time of Celebrimbor/Eregion] and Thorin's map, the Elendilmir or crown of Elendil from the late 2nd age [lost with Isildur], the helmets of the tower guard in Gondor [from the time of the Kings, but not specifically dated], the standard Arwen makes for Aragorn has the crown done in mithril and cold [late 3rd Age], and when Gimli helps to rebuild the gate of Minas Tirith, they are made of 'mithril and steel' [early 4th Age].

*Ithildin is an alloy made of mithril, so without mithril, no ithildin, but what makes it invisible is anyone's guess. Noldo elf magic :p

Bilbo also claims that Eärendil's ship was made of mithril when it was refitted to sail the heavens. But...I'm not sure Bilbo really knows anything about that, so I would take that one with a grain of salt. It is also possible that mithril was found on Numenor, so the loss of Numenor followed by the loss of Moria would explain why it became so completely impossible to get in later years.
 
MithLuin said:
It is also possible that mithril was found on Numenor, so the loss of Numenor followed by the loss of Moria would explain why it became so completely impossible to get in later years.
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I must confess, I had never considered this before. I ... don't think I like it, if only because it makes Khazad-dum less special. Aule can have a store of it, perhaps, if we need to make Earendil's ship mithril-inlaid or whatever Bilbo meant. But that does not account for the Numenorean or Gondorian artifacts... The only one that might be an actual concern is the helmets of the guards. Does anyone remember if it's specified how many, exactly, of these helms exist in Minas Tirith?

I suspect that very little actual mithril is needed to make ithildin or the gates Gimli remakes for Minas Tirith. Mithril is, I think, less an actual alloy and more a semi-magical substance, and likely little of it need be added to other materials for it to imbue something of its powers unto it.
 
Haerangil said:
cavalry roundshields might be smaller, some of the infantry models were quite huge...

lozenge shaped bucklers are known from pictish stones, that's the only example i know.

i also think mithril still should be the exception. a few selected magical weapons and armour could be made of mithril..
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Pictish bucklers did not display medieval-style heraldry, though. For example, if you used one for Fëanor's device, the boss would cover up where the Silmaril was depicted.

Also, you wouldn't use a buckler on the battlefield without pretty sophisticated armor on to protect you from arrows. Unless you were from the sort of culture that ran naked into battle.

Most of the art depicting Picts with the kind of buckler you're describing is also pretty modern, and from what I can tell, derived from contemporary images like this:

pictishmen.jpg


In which they are actually square.
 
Marielle said:
I must confess, I had never considered this before. I ... don't think I like it, if only because it makes Khazad-dum less special. Aule can have a store of it, perhaps, if we need to make Earendil's ship mithril-inlaid or whatever Bilbo meant. But that does not account for the Numenorean or Gondorian artifacts... The only one that might be an actual concern is the helmets of the guards. Does anyone remember if it's specified how many, exactly, of these helms exist in Minas Tirith?

I suspect that very little actual mithril is needed to make ithildin or the gates Gimli remakes for Minas Tirith. Mithril is, I think, less an actual alloy and more a semi-magical substance, and likely little of it need be added to other materials for it to imbue something of its powers unto it.
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The tower guard were an elite unit, which may have been limited to as little as 50-100 men.
 
tolkienian heraldry is of course different from medieval one too...

the shield boss is almost always in the way with antique types, at least greek tyraeus, roman or celtuc types... i still think our dhields should work with a central boss and have some heradlry or signature around it.there are ways to do it
 
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