Swords

Haerangil said:
tolkienian heraldry is of course different from medieval one too...

the shield boss is almost always in the way with antique types, at least greek tyraeus, roman or celtuc types... i still think our dhields should work with a central boss and have some heradlry or signature around it.there are ways to do it
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Of course there are ways to do it. But the smaller the shield, the larger the boss is proportionally speaking. Also, I do hope our Noldor are not foolish enough to be using such a small shield in battle. Up until now, the most deadly weapon they have been aware of is the bow, perhaps some throwing spears. It is fair to assume that they would be at least as concerned about enemy archery as they would be about melee weapons, and thus use larger, more useful shields.
 
Back to weapons... do we want all balrogs wielding whips, like the one in Moria does? I know that's what the text implies/kinda outright states when they drive Ungoliant away, but maybe some do and some wield other weapons? A shorthand way of differentiating them? I, for one, could see Gothmog wielding something like this, if only as a secondary weapon.
images
 
how tall are our balrogs?

i guess they're somewhat below 3 meters?

they are certainly not cavalry so they use weapons effective for tall champions who look for single combat.

i don't think they would use shields...
 
Haerangil said:
how tall are our balrogs?

i guess they're somewhat below 3 meters?

they are certainly not cavalry so they use weapons effective for tall champions who look for single combat.

i don't think they would use shields...
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I'm imagining something between 8-10 feet tall. Taller than a man, but not double his height.

I can't see them carrying shields, either. I imagine they're pretty hard to hurt regardless of any protection.

Whips, axes, maybe maces and two-handed swords?
 
Same here. Gothmog having a shield would make Ecthelion killing him with the spike on his helmet a lot harder.
 
9 foot seems reasonable. I believe the tallest man ever was 8.9.

So far i'd vote for a lybrys like axe, an archaic double bitted axe. Battle axes with spikes are usually associated with cavalry or anti-cavalry weapons (to pierce tough armour). Hand and half-sword also should work well.

What type of troop do we have for the Noldor?

We have:

Feanorians
Clad in white and gold

Guardians of the seven Gates of Gondolin
Gate of Wood
  • coat of arms: no special coat of arms
  • mail
  • Swords
Gate of Stone
  • coat of arms: robed in gray
Gate of Bronze
  • red mail
  • red-bladed axes
Gate of Writhen Iron
Gate of Silver
Gate of Gold
Gate of Steel
The twelve Houses of Gondolin
House of the King
  • red-white and golden Banner
  • coat of Arms:moon, sun and the scarl.et-heart
House of the Wing
House of the Mole
House of the Swallow
  • coat of arms: sign of the Arrow-head; white, purple, dark blue and black colors
  • helmets with fans of feathers
  • Elven Bows
House of the Heavenly Arch
House of the Pillar
House of the Tower of Snow
House of the Tree
House of the Golden Flower
  • coat of arms: a rayed sun upon their shields
  • weapons covered with gold
House of the Fountain
  • Mail applied with crystal and Silver
  • very bright and pale Long swords
  • marched into battle to the playing of flutes
  • see guards of the seventh Gate of Gondolin
House of the Harp
  • coat of arms: A harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon a field of black
  • clothes with tassel of gold and silver
House of the Hammer of Wrath
  • coat of arms: the Stricken Anvil, and a hammer that smiteth sparks about it was set on their shields
  • great War hammers
  • large shields

so far I'd say no bucklers for the Noldor. Great Teardrop shields for infantry and roundshields for cavalry and spatha-like swords for infantry and estoc-like seords for cavalry, maybe plus falchions.
 
I'll put a photo up here, but we have to think about whether we care or not about what Warhammer (the tabletop game) does with their balrog knock-offs (wings!). They have leaned in pretty heavy to axes and whips. But maybe we don't care?

99129915024_DaemonsofKhorneBloodThirster02.jpg
 
I like the idea of two handed weapons for some of the Balrogs I mean they are big chaps so what would be too big and heavy for elves or men would be brill for them plus it will make them look much scarier.
If they are going to be bigger then our "good guys" then they could have both a larger then normal weapon and whip that they can switch between.
 
Haerangil said:
9 foot seems reasonable. I believe the tallest man ever was 8.9.

So far i'd vote for a lybrys like axe, an archaic double bitted axe. Battle axes with spikes are usually associated with cavalry or anti-cavalry weapons (to pierce tough armour). Hand and half-sword also should work well.

What type of troop do we have for the Noldor?

We have:

Feanorians
Clad in white and gold

Guardians of the seven Gates of Gondolin
Gate of Wood
  • coat of arms: no special coat of arms
  • mail
  • Swords
Gate of Stone
  • coat of arms: robed in gray
Gate of Bronze
  • red mail
  • red-bladed axes
Gate of Writhen Iron
Gate of Silver
Gate of Gold
Gate of Steel
The twelve Houses of Gondolin
House of the King
  • red-white and golden Banner
  • coat of Arms:moon, sun and the scarl.et-heart
House of the Wing
House of the Mole
House of the Swallow
  • coat of arms: sign of the Arrow-head; white, purple, dark blue and black colors
  • helmets with fans of feathers
  • Elven Bows
House of the Heavenly Arch
House of the Pillar
House of the Tower of Snow
House of the Tree
House of the Golden Flower
  • coat of arms: a rayed sun upon their shields
  • weapons covered with gold
House of the Fountain
  • Mail applied with crystal and Silver
  • very bright and pale Long swords
  • marched into battle to the playing of flutes
  • see guards of the seventh Gate of Gondolin
House of the Harp
  • coat of arms: A harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon a field of black
  • clothes with tassel of gold and silver
House of the Hammer of Wrath
  • coat of arms: the Stricken Anvil, and a hammer that smiteth sparks about it was set on their shields
  • great War hammers
  • large shields

so far I'd say no bucklers for the Noldor. Great Teardrop shields for infantry and roundshields for cavalry and spatha-like swords for infantry and estoc-like seords for cavalry, maybe plus falchions.
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Ok, so some points on this:

The weapons and armor brought over by Feanor's, and Fingolfin's contingents should not look the same as the weapons and armor their various peoples have by the time of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. It's a period of a few hundred years, and I find it highly doubtful that our Noldor will not learn from their first battle experiences. Also, Morgoth would learn from his encounters from the Noldor and make improvements to the equipment of his minions. Then, the elves would learn from those improvements and make improvements of their own. So let's take this a step at a time.

Earlier, there had been a desire to make the sword with which Feanor threatens Fingolfin a xiphos-style sword.
6d55c66ca87d8b42a800248362c89359.jpg


It's a relatively simple design, but good for both cutting and thrusting, and light enough to be considered a side-arm one might carry even when not going into battle. It's also an attractive design, with it's gentle curves along the blade. Of course, this is not a primary weapon, but a secondary one, so I took it a step further and suggested that the Feanorian contingent should have a core of heavy infantry, not unlike the hoplites of ancient Greece.
240px-Two_hoplites.jpg

Of course, I should like to see different armor being used here. I do not remember if Tolkien describes them with conical helms at this point, but if he does, we should use that. Armor is a difficult topic in Middle-Earth. Tolkien almost exclusively puts his characters in "mail" of some kind, and has chain mail being a dwarvish innovation in Beleriand. Either way, Valinorean elves do not have access to chain mail. I do feel that by the end of the first age, having only chain mail, and then for the whole of the second and third ages, having no one come up with anything better makes me a bit incredulous. Also, chain mail was available as early as the Roman empire around 300 BC, became the dominant armor type in Europe somewhere around the 5th century AD, and was starting to get plate elements added to it

Speaking of the Romans, they seem to have been the few cultures to use scale mail effectively, and I do suggest their designs of the lorica squamata as the basis for early elvish armor.

c52801132f07e2fde5ae886beb622334.jpg


They would also have skirmishers (probably lighter infantry that had not been at Formenos) with spears or javelins, as well as bowmen.

Fingolfin's contingent would be more lightly armed and mobile, especially once they reach Beleriand. I think that New Kingdom Egyptian armies might be a good model for this, sans chariots. They Egyptians utilized many different weaponsets, but what I am recommended is a light scale armor, wicker + hide shields, and either light swords or spears.

When they arrive, the Sindar are mostly lightly armed militia with a small core force of heavily armed soldiers who have the bulk of the dwarf-made metal weapons and armor. Their armor will, as described in the text, be chain-mail. For some reason, these guys remind me of the Persian Immortals, an elite force of archers/spearmen if contemporary art is any indication. While I object to the PJ indication of all elves as convertible infantry/archers, I think we can safely give that status to the elite soldiers of Doriath.

As to Sindarin militia, I think we would likely see a lot of cloth armor (more effective than a lot of people think), as well as light spears or bows.

Now, if we find these suggestions acceptable, we can start asking what innovations we can give the orcs leading up to the Battle of Sudden Flame.
 
Fëanor is described as having a 'high helm' with red plumes. I'm not sure if it is specified to be a pointed helm anywhere, but that would fit the description:

But even as Fingolfin spoke, Fëanor strode into the chamber, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said. 'My half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters.' Then turning upon Fingolfin he drew his sword, crying: 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!'
​
And earlier:

...and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempoered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red.
​

I agree that his sword should not be so large that it's unwieldy to walk around in, but it probably should not be overly short, either. You wouldn't typically hold someone at knifepoint if they are armed with a sword and you aren't armed with a secondary weapon (kendo kata 8-10 aside).

 
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that is a very good concept for the weapon/technology developement in beleriand!

i would like to have the early noldorian style to be modeled on early bronze age to iron age design.

i agree they won't have many horses at first, si their knights and horse archers will be a later developement when they have bred sufficient horses.

so the early feanorian warrior is more similar to a hoplite and later their military gets more specialized, for example the gondolindrin troops... many of them may actually have been sindarian auxiliars.

i also agree that those noldor who cross the iceclaw should be more lightly armored...

im also fine with the scale/splint mail. theres elven fishs mail mentioned... that may be some kind of scale or plate/ring on leather.

i guess morgoth would at first use scale or plates on leather and later too adapt ringmail.

i've often thought about the reasins why tolkien never seems to mention full plate or at least cuirasses but the only reason i could find wss that he hated or at last didn't like that kind of armor.maybe it didn't fit with his ideas of archaic heroism..
 
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Now, previously, Angband had a significant advantage in armor and weapons technology, and were probably utilizing heavier armor and shields to combat the bows of the Moriquendi. When they are facing the Noldor, they learn that their heavy armor are of no value against Noldorin heavy infantry.

What they also learn is the value of their large elite soldiery, balrogs, trolls, etc. They use them much as tanks were used in WWI, to break through enemy lines, allowing lighter, more mobile infantry to pour through.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
What they also learn is the value of their large elite soldiery, balrogs, trolls, etc. They use them much as tanks were used in WWI, to break through enemy lines, allowing lighter, more mobile infantry to pour through.
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I like the comparison of the trolls to tanks. These huge, impersonal, almost mechanical things raining down death and destruction. Trolls being living things (and not always the sharpest tools in the shed) gives us an opportunity, if we like, to show also Angband's complete disregard for life, even the lives of its slaves: perhaps a troll is "frenzied" and sent charging into battle, crushing orc and elf alike underfoot like a war elephant?

I suspect the balrogs will serve a very different function from trolls in any and all battles, but the tank analogy still works. But maybe their more like bombers? Something the average soldier on the ground doesn't really stand a chance of stopping, or even necessarily of seeing?
 
Marielle said:
I like the comparison of the trolls to tanks. These huge, impersonal, almost mechanical things raining down death and destruction. Trolls being living things (and not always the sharpest tools in the shed) gives us an opportunity, if we like, to show also Angband's complete disregard for life, even the lives of its slaves: perhaps a troll is "frenzied" and sent charging into battle, crushing orc and elf alike underfoot like a war elephant?

I suspect the balrogs will serve a very different function from trolls in any and all battles, but the tank analogy still works. But maybe their more like bombers? Something the average soldier on the ground doesn't really stand a chance of stopping, or even necessarily of seeing?
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Well, the average soldier on the ground doesn't really stand a chance of stopping a tank either. ;)

Anyway, as stated in another thread, the elvish response would seem to be to transition the bulk of their forces into more mobile units to be able to outmaneuver the "tanks" of Angband while mowing down the enemy's massed light infantry. Heavy cavalry and horse archers seem to me to be the best method of doing this. However, these units need to be supported by pike formations, which would, in turn, need to be supported by bowmen and skirmishers. It seems to me that Men seem to occupy the "skirmisher" roles, along with the Laiquendi (who also serve as bowmen). Men seem to be consistently covering elvish retreats (could just be my imagination), which is often the role of a skirmishing force, as they are typically the most mobile (and the most expendable).

That is not to say that these roles would have to be strictly adhered to, but they can serve as a guide to improve consistency.
 
So Harengil was wondering about weapons for Galadriel on the Balrogs page and I was thinking either a jian or for the direction of cutlasses, go toward something like these, curved:
1796%20light%20cavalry%20sabre_1.jpg

Or straight:
b24e8084bcd8f72c502ff267d4c8d7b5.jpg
 
Haerangil said:
well i'm a bit sceptical about adapting asian style weapons, but technically speaking:why ot?

a jian is a beautiful weapon and a mid-length version would suit galadriel well.problem is only that i don't see it as a typical noldorian weapon and not as a falmari weapon either (do they have real weapons apart from bows,fishing spears,harpoons,tridents,boarding axes or cutlasses?)
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I'm not sure I agree that there is a "Noldorian style" of weapon. They're craftsmen and innovators; I think they'd have a wide variety of materials, techniques, and styles to choose from, and would explore them all.

I do suspect, however, that there is a *Feanorean* style of weaponry. Which would actually go along with our depictions of increased isolation/radicalization of the Feanor brood. I think it could be quite the contrast, if we have a melange of styles and materials in the Noldor population at large but the Feanoreans be uniform. Feanor and his seven sons walking into the square in Tirion would be like a regular military unit walking into a milita camp, almost.


All that being said, I like Ange's suggestion of a curved blade for Galadriel. There's an elegance to a curved blade that I find appropriate for the Lady of the Golden Wood. Like this blade, which I *think* is a Turkish Scimitar:
functional-arab-scimitar.jpg


But I'd probably not have it get wider at the end. I'm sure there's a practical reason for that, but we can squint (just a touch!) at military functionality in adapting our weapons for film aesthetics.
 
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