Swords

[Ange1e4e5]

I was thinking more along the lines of a few seconds focus and it's never brought up again, kinda like "Oh that guy's got a really big hammer".

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I don't know, that seems less funny and more fodder for people complaining on the internet. Though it brings up an interesting question: are the Calaquendi stronger than humans? If so, how much stronger? Are they Batman strong? Captain America strong? Probably not Superman strong, but I think you see where I'm going here.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well, we don't really hear too much about the physical difference between a Calaquendi or a Morquendi, the only Elves I know are different are Finarfin's children, who are Calaquendi, particularly Finrod and Galadriel, who have some form of telepathy.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Well, we do get a clear indication of the Calaquendi's superior might, but it is an open question as to what that entails. Are they quicker? More skilled? Or just more scary due to the Light of Aman in their faces?

 

[MithLuin]

Tolkien discusses the telepathy of the elves (an ability not limited to the Calaquendi, but more likely for Elves than Men to utilize) in his essay Ósanwe-kenta.

The Calaquendi, who have lived in the light of the Trees, are considered to be hardier than the elves of Middle Earth, and it is called out a few times. I don't know if it translates to extreme physical strength, though.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Ok, so to my mind, hardier translates to greater endurance.

For example, I can lift a claymore just fine, and maybe even take a swing or two, but beyond that, I'm done. (Granted even if I were in prime condition, my build leans more toward sword and board style combat, but that's irrelevant ). Hardier individuals can wield heavier weapons in heavier armor for longer. Granted, weapon size has some limitations because you don't want to get too far away from your comrades (just ask Fëanor), but it might be worth thinking about for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[MithLuin]

Well, I should give the specific examples of what I mean by 'hardier' - Tuor claims that he is near death from starvation/exposure, but that perhaps Voronwë is not. Is that an elf/mortal difference, or is Voronwë one of the Calaquendi, and does Tuor even accurately predict how hardy Voronwë is? He gets some lembas out of it, so all goes well in the end, but it's a rather slender thread to hold up the entire idea of great elvish endurance.

Another example that is more implied than explicitly stated is that Maedhros seems to have hung by his wrist from a rock for *years* without dying. Sure, he was freshly come from Valinor, but that sounds like a serious plight to be in. Are we to assume that Morgoth was sending out slaves with ladders to feed his prisoner? Was there magic involved, so that Maedhros was trapped in some sort of suspended animation rather than age/deteriorate like normal? Was Maedhros actually stuffed in a dungeon for most of that time, and just hung out on the cliff as a final punishment days before Fingon managed to rescue him? Who knows?

Other statements on the matter are mostly generic, about the Light of the Trees having been so recently shining on their faces, but that could mean a lot of things when it comes to practical matters like how strong their muscles were. It's...tricky.


* The sun rose for the first time while he was up there, so just how many years is a curious question. But even so...years.

 

[Ray Burns]

Maybe to quantify it, the difference between Elf and Man is the difference between professional and college athletes. Certainly there are college athletes that can play at the professional level, but the average college athlete is just simply outclassed by a professional. And the best of the professionals are head and shoulders above the college athlete. The Calaquendi can be seen as the All-Stars of the professionals.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Yes. That's probably a good way to look at it.

 

[MithLuin]

About having Fëanor actually enact a thrust and stopping short of Fingolfin's throat, I don't mean to be contrary, but that might not be all that dramatic on screen.

A thrust is a lightning quick motion, which might be over before the audience realizes it is supposed to be dramatic.

Ah, the move itself will be fast, but the drama can be clear if done well. This illustration of the scene by Catherine Karina Chmiel should help:
'This is sharper than thy tongue!'

http://www.kasiopea.art.pl/en/home

She has Fingolfin backed up against a wall/column, and Fëanor is holding the sword directly at his throat to keep him there. So even if the audience considered the move that got them to this position as too fast...once they are here and frozen, I think everyone will catch on.

 

[Ray Burns]

While I am like a lot of people who kind of worship Fingolfin and don't really want to envision that our hero would be caught so unawares by anyone, even Feanor. And I wanted to see him catch Feanor's sword like this... . I realize that, for story purposes, having Feanor move so quickly and decisively that he has Fingolfin totally at his mercy is a great establishing datapoint for future episodes on just how magnificent Feanor really is.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, it's a delicate balance of not ruining Fingolfin's character in this scene, as his physical prowess is at least the equal of his elder half-brother, if not greater.

At the end of the day, Fëanor is armed and he is not. Fëanor has a blade at his throat, and Fingolfin is at his mercy. So, Fingolfin is physically dominated here. But....he can be completely undaunted. Refuse to respond to Fëanor's taunts. Turn his back and silently walk away. I think it will matter what brings this on (which we will get to in 2 weeks), but I agree with you that there needs to be some real defiance in Fingolfin's response.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

All the stuff with Fingolfin finding himself at the point of a sword makes me think of the 1968 version of Romeo and Juliet, when Mercutio draws his sword on Tybalt.

In this picture, the line is Mercutio's sword, and Tybalt is lifting the tip (offscreen) with his thumb.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Maybe the Easterlings use weapons like these?

A dao, single-edged Chinese sword

A Jian, double-edged Chinese sword.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I still like the idea of a basket-handled sword like the one from Sharpe.

 

[MithLuin]

I think that a basket-handled sword, as you put it, will look out-of-place on a battlefield in the First Age of Middle Earth. Renaissance civilian use isn't really...what we're going for.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Would be nice to see where such a weapon comes from, with the idea that Middle-Earth becomes our world. The 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword is a particularly ungainly weapon which is more like a machete, unfit for delicate swordsmanship; users are described as bludgeoning their opponents and using the handguards as knuckledusters. Think of it as somewhere in between a medieval cruciform sword and a rapier. The mass-produced Uruk-hai swords from The Lord of the Rings made me think of this weapon.

Uruk-hai Sword

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Actually, the use of the hilt and crossguard were common in swords well before the age of gunpowder. Knights used such techniques quite frequently against armored opponents, since blades are not particularly useful against plate. It wasn't considered clumsy technique, just technique.

 

[Halstein]

The swords should have unscrew-able pommels, so the elves can end their opponents rightly.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

As to the jian, I'd consider that an elvish blade if there ever was one. The technique involved in its use is very elegant and refined, almost dance-like.