The Birth of Weapon-craft and Warfare
- Thread starter Marielle
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Well, it's easy enough for Eonwë's sword to say, materialize in his hand, rather than being drawn. It is an extension of his own being, rather than something manufactured.
ouzaru
Well-Known Member
Remember, the Istari are specifically pretty different from just regular old Maiar wearing skin. Gandalf legitimately dies and is sent back to his lifeless body. When the Istari show up in Middle Earth, I think we ought to take some pains to demonstrate (hopefully in some way other than exposition) that the wizards aren't anything we've ever seen before.
I think there is a difference in the possibilities of taking form after the fall of Númenor. The Valar pulling their lands away and making them less accessible probably changed the conditions under which Ainur worked and used 'magical' powers in Middle-earth. It should be easier for them to act in ways we interpret as magic in the First Age. My guess is that this change that I'm speculating on meant that the Istari can't just 'don a skin' or take human form as they used to be able to. The Valar should talk about that before the Istari are sent on their mission, and say that they will be connected to these bodies in ways they are not used to - that they can die.
Oh, agreed - the Istari are much more limited in what showy supernatural stuff they can do. They are actually incarnate, not just putting on bodies like clothing.
I just mean that, as a continuous story, to have the flashy magic drain out....we have to consider how flashy we wanted to make it in the first place. Usually shows like to one-up themselves and get flashier and higher stakes as they go. Since we're headed in a different direction...how do we tell this story without disappointing the audience and making them feel cheated?
It's really a question for 6 seasons from now, not for now, but decisions we make now will affect what happens down the road.
I just mean that, as a continuous story, to have the flashy magic drain out....we have to consider how flashy we wanted to make it in the first place. Usually shows like to one-up themselves and get flashier and higher stakes as they go. Since we're headed in a different direction...how do we tell this story without disappointing the audience and making them feel cheated?
It's really a question for 6 seasons from now, not for now, but decisions we make now will affect what happens down the road.
ouzaru
Well-Known Member
That's actually a really salient question, then. How explicit do we want to be? Do we want to offer an explanation , or at least hint that the rules are different at different stages of the narrative?
My gut instinct is pretty solidly a "no": the audience should have some idea that once the Noldor return to Middle Earth, the fading begins. Season two is actually probably the first time we should hear of "The Long Defeat", and thematically from the Third Season on we need to be pressing the notion of impermanence and fading. We've pretty clearly made the three who return "better,stronger, faster," and Valinor should bring with it a sense of rising and optimism improvement, but after that we need to be sure we're selling a constant, incessant downward trend, so that by season 5 no one really expects to see "bigger and better". I mean, up to the point where we are able to draw parallels between the fading powers of Melkor and the fading of the elves.
My gut instinct is pretty solidly a "no": the audience should have some idea that once the Noldor return to Middle Earth, the fading begins. Season two is actually probably the first time we should hear of "The Long Defeat", and thematically from the Third Season on we need to be pressing the notion of impermanence and fading. We've pretty clearly made the three who return "better,stronger, faster," and Valinor should bring with it a sense of rising and optimism improvement, but after that we need to be sure we're selling a constant, incessant downward trend, so that by season 5 no one really expects to see "bigger and better". I mean, up to the point where we are able to draw parallels between the fading powers of Melkor and the fading of the elves.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I kind of like the Idea that technology appears at different places by different inventors...
the Valar/Maiar already seem to have known weapons before the awakening of Elves... but where those weapons in use and shown openly when the Elves were arriving and living in Aman during Morgoths incerceration? Possibly not. And in Lost Tales the Valars Armour and Weapons are kept by Makar and Measse in their Hall... seems to indicate they were shut away when there was no war.
Aloso i like the Idea that Weapons are Morgoths invention and the Valar do not really like them, but felt they had to make weapons to fedend themselves... that would be a small corrupting influence of Morgoth on Valinor#s culture already... maybe resulting into some more warlike and unforgiving Maiar (resembances of Makar and Measse, but also Osse, Eonwe, Tilion, Orome, Tulkas have some Warlike feats).
What might have happened when the Elves first find out that there are secret stroages of Weapon and armour in Aman that had been hidden from them? Maybe Morgoth could show them... and then the Noldor secretly begin their armament in imatation of what they saw.
In Middle-Earth weapons should come from Dwarves first. They would have been taught how to defend themselves by Aule.And when the Umanyar at first only have Bows, Spears and Quarterstaffs the Dwarves aid them and sell them Axes and Blades- which they soon learn to imitate.
So the Sindar already have metal weapons when the Noldor arrive, but the Nandor are still backward and only reluictantly begin to arm themselves with Blades and metal-Arrowheads... maybe because they dislike metal and smelting (and felling trees in general).
Men should really be stone-age peoples before they get into contact with the beleriandic Elves, as should be the Avari. And many tribes of men should stay behind technology and still be stone-age and bronze-age tribes until the late second Age.
the Valar/Maiar already seem to have known weapons before the awakening of Elves... but where those weapons in use and shown openly when the Elves were arriving and living in Aman during Morgoths incerceration? Possibly not. And in Lost Tales the Valars Armour and Weapons are kept by Makar and Measse in their Hall... seems to indicate they were shut away when there was no war.
Aloso i like the Idea that Weapons are Morgoths invention and the Valar do not really like them, but felt they had to make weapons to fedend themselves... that would be a small corrupting influence of Morgoth on Valinor#s culture already... maybe resulting into some more warlike and unforgiving Maiar (resembances of Makar and Measse, but also Osse, Eonwe, Tilion, Orome, Tulkas have some Warlike feats).
What might have happened when the Elves first find out that there are secret stroages of Weapon and armour in Aman that had been hidden from them? Maybe Morgoth could show them... and then the Noldor secretly begin their armament in imatation of what they saw.
In Middle-Earth weapons should come from Dwarves first. They would have been taught how to defend themselves by Aule.And when the Umanyar at first only have Bows, Spears and Quarterstaffs the Dwarves aid them and sell them Axes and Blades- which they soon learn to imitate.
So the Sindar already have metal weapons when the Noldor arrive, but the Nandor are still backward and only reluictantly begin to arm themselves with Blades and metal-Arrowheads... maybe because they dislike metal and smelting (and felling trees in general).
Men should really be stone-age peoples before they get into contact with the beleriandic Elves, as should be the Avari. And many tribes of men should stay behind technology and still be stone-age and bronze-age tribes until the late second Age.