The Earendil poem and the doom of Frodo and Bilbo?

Flammifer

Member
What was the eventual fate of Frodo and Bilbo, after they went to Elvenhome and were healed? We can only speculate. However, there is a singular precedent, and that is what happened to Earendil. So, with that, I give you the last two stanzas of a much longer lay:

The Doom of Frodo & Bilbo Baggins

A dinghy then they built for them
Of mithril and of elven glass
No small motor, no shaven oar
Nor sail she bore, nor silver mast:
Elbereth then, did thither come
And wings immortal made for them,
And laid on them undying doom,
To fly up to
‘Tindomiel’
Behind the sun and light of moon.

For on them mighty doom was laid,
Til Moon should fade, on orbed star
To pass, and tarry never more
On Hither Shores where mortals are;
For-ever on
‘Tindomiel’
An errand that should never rest
To be good friends to Earendil,
Alleviate his Loneliness.
 
What was the eventual fate of Frodo and Bilbo, after they went to Elvenhome and were healed? We can only speculate. However, there is a singular precedent, and that is what happened to Earendil. So, with that, I give you the last two stanzas of a much longer lay:

The Doom of Frodo & Bilbo Baggins

A dinghy then they built for them
Of mithril and of elven glass
No small motor, no shaven oar
Nor sail she bore, nor silver mast:
Elbereth then, did thither come
And wings immortal made for them,
And laid on them undying doom,
To fly up to
‘Tindomiel’
Behind the sun and light of moon.

For on them mighty doom was laid,
Til Moon should fade, on orbed star
To pass, and tarry never more
On Hither Shores where mortals are;
For-ever on
‘Tindomiel’
An errand that should never rest
To be good friends to Earendil,
Alleviate his Loneliness.
Certainly a better outcome than for Ar-Pharazon and his army, which is the other precedent.
 

Flammifer

Member
Well, Ar-Pharazon + Army is a precedent of what happens if arriving in Elvenhome uninvited. But Earendil (once bearing the Silmaril) was invited, and so were Frodo and Bilbo.
 

Jim Deutch

Active Member
Certainly a better outcome than for Ar-Pharazon and his army, which is the other precedent.
No, I'm not entirely sure I agree. Ar-Pharazôn and his army are reputedly buried deep, but will all return for the Last Battle. The question of the final-final outcome hinges on which side they'll fight for! (we know which side will win...) :p
 
No, I'm not entirely sure I agree. Ar-Pharazôn and his army are reputedly buried deep, but will all return for the Last Battle. The question of the final-final outcome hinges on which side they'll fight for! (we know which side will win...) :p
Yes, but I see it as a special type of Hell: Waiting to see the school principal times 1 billion ;-)
I can imagine that it felt like eternity even though it wasn't really.
 

Jim Deutch

Active Member
Yes, but I see it as a special type of Hell: Waiting to see the school principal times 1 billion ;-)
I can imagine that it felt like eternity even though it wasn't really
Huh. I never thought they might be conscious through all those ages! I figure they probably wake up going "where am I, and what is the time?" like Frodo in Rivendell, but not so gently.

BTW -- since we're doing fanfic here anyway -- I also think Amandil, father of Elendil, is buried there with them. He set out well before the fleet, heading towards Valinor to ask for the pardon and aid of the Valar, but was never reported seen again by anyone in Middle Earth -- which is exactly what would have happened if he'd been picked up in the middle of the ocean by Ar-Pharazôn. They were childhood friends: perhaps he will have some influence over the King when time comes to choose sides at The End.
 
Huh. I never thought they might be conscious through all those ages! I figure they probably wake up going "where am I, and what is the time?" like Frodo in Rivendell, but not so gently.

BTW -- since we're doing fanfic here anyway -- I also think Amandil, father of Elendil, is buried there with them. He set out well before the fleet, heading towards Valinor to ask for the pardon and aid of the Valar, but was never reported seen again by anyone in Middle Earth -- which is exactly what would have happened if he'd been picked up in the middle of the ocean by Ar-Pharazôn. They were childhood friends: perhaps he will have some influence over the King when time comes to choose sides at The End.
I simply interpreted "imprisoned" as conscious, rather than unconscious. The main point of my original comment was to point out that Eärendil is not a singular precedent, although Flammifer doesn't seem to like to use the Silmarillion as a canonical source.
 

Flammifer

Member
Hi Jim,

You are correct that I don't like using the Silmarillion as a canonical source. This is for several reasons. The main one is that J.R.R. Tolkien never published it, and, I believe, he would have made massive revisions before he ever did. The other reason is that it 'reports' what may be legends rather than 'truth'. The supposed reappearance of Ar-Pharazon's army at the last battle is a good example. Is it supposed to be a legend? (There have been many similar legends in Medieval fantasy.) Or, is it supposed to be 'truth'? How would we know?

My other comment, is that whatever will happen to Ar-Pharazon and his army, it is not as good a precedent for what might happen to Frodo and Bilbo, as Earendil is. Ar-Pharazon defied the ban of the Valar to land on elvenhome. Earendil (eventually - once he had the Silmaril), was 'invited' (perhaps 'compelled') to Elvenhome. Frodo and Bilbo were also 'invited' to Elvenhome. So, Earendil is a much more compelling precedent for their possible fate, than is Ar-Pharazon.
 
Hi Jim,

You are correct that I don't like using the Silmarillion as a canonical source. This is for several reasons. The main one is that J.R.R. Tolkien never published it, and, I believe, he would have made massive revisions before he ever did. The other reason is that it 'reports' what may be legends rather than 'truth'. The supposed reappearance of Ar-Pharazon's army at the last battle is a good example. Is it supposed to be a legend? (There have been many similar legends in Medieval fantasy.) Or, is it supposed to be 'truth'? How would we know?

My other comment, is that whatever will happen to Ar-Pharazon and his army, it is not as good a precedent for what might happen to Frodo and Bilbo, as Earendil is. Ar-Pharazon defied the ban of the Valar to land on elvenhome. Earendil (eventually - once he had the Silmaril), was 'invited' (perhaps 'compelled') to Elvenhome. Frodo and Bilbo were also 'invited' to Elvenhome. So, Earendil is a much more compelling precedent for their possible fate, than is Ar-Pharazon.
But Eärendil was not invited, in any sense of the word.
Even relying only on the poem in Book 2 of LotR, it is clear that he wasn't invited, but only arrived through dogged persistence on his own part.

Far from being compelled, he voluntarily went in search of Valinor in order to implore the Valar to give aid to the peoples of Middle-Earth, even knowing that his personal fate was in peril. He got off on a technicality, being of mixed heritage, but was not allowed to stay in Valinor.

There certainly seems to be an inconsistency in the fates of the Half-Elven: Elros chose mortality and this appears to have been applied to all of his descendants without subsequent generations being given the option to choose for themselves, while Elrond's children are allowed to opt for mortal after thousands of years.

Frodo and Bilbo are the first pure mortals to have gone to Valinor, ever. So, in truth there is no precedent.

Addit: Comparing the Silmarillion to Medieval texts is somewhat specious, as the source of these stories is an immortal race with documented evidence of communication with the Valar who have access to a representation of "the plan" for Arda. This makes the details in these stories a good deal more reliable than legends in Medieval fantasy, resulting from many generations of story-tellers embellishing the tale they heard to "improve" it.
 
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Flammifer

Member
Hi Anthony,

You are correct that, at first, Earendil was not invited to Elvenhome. And, he did not get there. He was repelled by the 'winds of wrath'.

However, once Elwing bound the Silmaril to him, and he 'turned his prow' back towards Elvenhome, he was more than invited, he was compelled by 'a wind of power in Tarmenel', that bore his boat, 'with biting breath, as might of death,' and, 'from east to west he passed away."

He went there, 'by paths that seldom mortal goes". As far as we know (from appendix A in TLOTR), Ar-Pharazon, and the Numenorean armada did not go to Elvenhome by 'paths that seldom mortal goes', but they just sailed across the sea. The old defences, such as the 'night of naught' and the 'winds of wrath' seem to have been dismantled (probably at the end of the First Age) and replaced by 'the Ban of the Valar' (later, replaced again by the bending of the world).

So, both Earendil, and Frodo and Bilbo, arrived in Elvenhome 'by paths that seldom mortal goes', whereas Ar-Pharazon and his armada did not.
 
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