The Family of Gil-Galad

Which makes it even more shocking when Thingol does this. Edain and Eldar both apparently had some traditions of foster-parenting, and when parents are dying in warfare it must have been a necessity. But Kings just didn't do this. Then Thingol, who previously had scorned mortal Men, declares one to be his very own foster-son. Part of the surprise is that he did this for a mortal, but part of it is that it was not the tradition for Elven-Kings to foster children, not even other elves. (And Thingol and Melian tried so hard to steer Turin away from the worst of his fate... but to no avail.)

Certainly it would be unthinkable for a foster-child of a King to be his heir if he dies... but what other privileges and honors of being King's son does Turin have? The Sindar may ask, "Should we really extend those to one who is not truly the King's son? And to an Adan, however noble his lineage?"

Not even Turgon did that. He adopted his sister's adult/near-adult (80-year-old) son as his heir, which is not unusual assuming your society is 100% patriarchal and Idril can never be a Ruling Queen.
 
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Going back to the question of Galadriel and her not becoming Queen... Could she refuse? I know that sounds like something she wouldn't do considering her reasons to come to Middle-earth, but after she's met Celeborn and after her talking to Melian and Thingol about the Kinslaying, she really can't identify with the Noldor in that way anymore. Becoming the ruler of the Noldor would be to also be a leader of the sons of Fëanor, and that would be impossible for her. So she passes on the offer to become Queen.
 
That is a good point and would make sense if she passed on the offer while Maedhros and Maglor were still alive, but I think she didn't have a chance to become Queen until after Gil-galad died. At that point all of Feanor's descendants are dead/gone.
 
Really? But we’ve been discussing why she doesn’t become queen instead of Gil-g.
 
Haakon said:
Going back to the question of Galadriel and her not becoming Queen... Could she refuse? I know that sounds like something she wouldn't do considering her reasons to come to Middle-earth, but after she's met Celeborn and after her talking to Melian and Thingol about the Kinslaying, she really can't identify with the Noldor in that way anymore. Becoming the ruler of the Noldor would be to also be a leader of the sons of Fëanor, and that would be impossible for her. So she passes on the offer to become Queen.
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The only way I can think of for this to happen, is if there is some point of contention which would mean Galadriel taking the crown would cause too great a rift amongst the Free Peoples.
 
Haakon said:
Really? But we’ve been discussing why she doesn’t become queen instead of Gil-g.
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I think they are all linked to the same question. We need to establish how the Noldors in Exile choose the next High King or possibly Queen.

If the Noldor are picking the oldest descendants of Finwe, disregarding across any line (excluding the Feanorians) then it would be: Fingolfin-Fingon-Turgon-Galadriel.

However, if they were going through the typical eldest child inherits line then it should have gone Fingolfin-Fingon-(Gil-galad)-Turgon-Idril.

There are two options I can think of that work. The first allows for Gil-galad to be either the son of Orodreth or the son of Fingon.
1. The Noldor choose the eldest male descendant of Finwe as High-King. This works, because first that is Fingolfin, then it is Fingon, then Turgon and after Turgon's death it would be Gil-galad. It also works even if Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, because he would be older than Earendil.

2. The Noldor practice Salic Law and only a male descendant through the male line can inherit. This works, but Gil-galad must be a descendant of Orodreth in this case.

The exiled Noldor can't really allow for a High Queen, because Idril and Galadriel would have a claim before Gil-galad.
 
cellardur said:
The exiled Noldor can't really allow for a High Queen, because Idril and Galadriel would have a claim before Gil-galad.
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Agree that’s an issue! That’s what we’re trying to solve. We’ve discussed how Idril’s and Galadriel’s marriages might be involved. I now presented another factor.
 
Haakon said:
Agree that’s an issue! That’s what we’re trying to solve. We’ve discussed how Idril’s and Galadriel’s marriages might be involved. I now presented another factor.
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I don't see why they can't just make the same argument the Numenoreans in exile did. They can be contrasted with the Sindar, who seem fully prepared to have Luthien as Thingol's heir and later accepted Dior as king. The Noldor Kings in general seem to have had a lot less political power than the Sindar or Numenorean kings.
 
Haakon said:
Really? But we’ve been discussing why she doesn’t become queen instead of Gil-g.
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I thought that was because she can't be the leader in Beleriand after Turgon dies, because she had already left Beleriand and nobody knew where she went. She wasn't in the picture. By the time she showed up again, Gil-galad was already king.

But Gil-galad also has to have a greater claim than Idril, so I think there's also an expectation that the ruler be a male warrior who can lead in battle. So "Eldest adult royal male who isn't Feanorian" is what I think they settled upon.

Earendil wasn't a possible choice after Turgon died, because he was 7 years old.
 
Sounds good to me, although I have to check this thread again because my memory is that this was a much greater issue before. Maybe it was just that people didn’t like the Noldor only choosing kings and no queens, and everyone has accepted that now.
 
Well she’s in Doriath, she’s close to Melian and Thingol, she’s married to a Sinda, she has distanced herself from the Kinslaying. There’s already a rift.
 
Haakon said:
Well she’s in Doriath, she’s close to Melian and Thingol, she’s married to a Sinda, she has distanced herself from the Kinslaying. There’s already a rift.
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That's fair. Do we think that not wanting to be Queen of Kinslayers is sufficient reason?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
That's fair. Do we think that not wanting to be Queen of Kinslayers is sufficient reason?
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Well I’m not sure. I guess it depends on a lot of things, like how much she values her friendship with the Sindar and the quality of her marriage, as well as her sense of responsibility toward the Noldor.
But this is all unnecessary if we accept that Noldor don’t have ruling queens.
 
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