The Family of Gil-Galad

[MithLuin]

Again, we won't make a decision on his parentage until we work him into the story. The only time this was brought up, it was with the published Silmarillion son-of-Fingon version in mind. But *not* having him as a child for all of this; it was with the speculation of what Fingon's story would look like if he were a dad the whole time. So, definitely a topic that needs to be revisited at some point!

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the forces of Elves and Men were basically broken and the city of Gondolin was the only important stronghold left except for Nargothrond. I guess everyone knew Turgon was there somewhere and alive, so he wasn't missing in action. That could have been enough to choose him as High King, but nobody could know if he accepted that or not... And how was she chosen? I have a feeling that these are problems that can be solved, though. Maybe there is some sort of communication...birds sending crypted messages...moths..?

Well, do we know for certain that no one came out of Gondolin AFTER the Nirnaeth? I am pretty sure the text says that no one came out before, but Turgon could leave Gondolin for the Noldomoot, and accept the kingship, then conduct his business by stealthy messengers. To be honest though, after the Nirnaeth, the High Kingship seems more or less a ceremonial position until the Last Alliance. The High Kings of the Noldor seem closer akin to what a historical Arthur would have been. They pretty much are only concerned with calling the Noldor to war.

 

[Haakon]

I agree with your assessment of the situation.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well, do we know for certain that no one came out of Gondolin AFTER the Nirnaeth? I am pretty sure the text says that no one came out before, but Turgon could leave Gondolin for the Noldomoot, and accept the kingship, then conduct his business by stealthy messengers. To be honest though, after the Nirnaeth, the High Kingship seems more or less a ceremonial position until the Last Alliance. The High Kings of the Noldor seem closer akin to what a historical Arthur would have been. They pretty much are only concerned with calling the Noldor to war.

People came out of Gondolin. Wasn’t Voronwe one of those that Turgon sent to Valinor to seek pardon from the Valar after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

 

[Faelivrin]

Yes, Voronwe was.
I think the High King was chosen (without a formal moot) during the Fifth Battle, or Fingon designated Turgon as his heir, or something like that. Turgon wasn't entirely missing, to the extent Galadriel was -- everyone knew he was in Gondolin, wherever that was, and could come out to call the Noldor to war ... if that ever happened again after the Fifth Battle. There could also be a preference for the older generations (not neessarily the eldest within a generation), and to keep the Kingship within the House of Fingolfin while it survived, which would discourage people from considering Orodreth, let alone Maedhros.

I really like the idea that the Noldor simply have no rules and keep hoping the next High King won't die. It's a much more Elvish way to decide. And it makes it easier to make Gil-galad the son of Orodreth, which I would prefer.

Gathering at the Isle of Balar to choose somebody after the fall of Gondolin doesn't really to exclude Idril, since there was probably some boat traffic between the Isle and the Havens. We know that Gil-galad was High King in the Second Age, but is it possible that Idril was in fact Queen between Turgon and Gil-galad? We don't have to include her but we could. The other possibility is that she was excluded for being a woman, not being a warrior, or being married to a non-elf. It would basically be a change from the book but also reduce the appearance of sexism in the system (to the extent they have a "system").

After the Last Alliance, I imagine some Noldor did think it was worthwhile choosing a new King or Queen, and Galadriel probably tried to become Queen. How would we depict her being turned down without it looking sexist? Making it only about her husband might seem kinda sexist, maybe. (Although it's true that every previous High King had no wife present in Middle-earth.) If it's mostly that not enough Noldor even want to bother with the institution anymore, there might even be some lingering confusion of "Is she the Queen, or not?" Meanwhile Elrond probably wouldn't want to put himself forward unless everyone insisted on him, which they don't.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

If Idril was queen, why wouldn't Tolkien mention it?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Gathering at the Isle of Balar to choose somebody after the fall of Gondolin doesn't really to exclude Idril, since there was probably some boat traffic between the Isle and the Havens. We know that Gil-galad was High King in the Second Age, but is it possible that Idril was in fact Queen between Turgon and Gil-galad? We don't have to include her but we could. The other possibility is that she was excluded for being a woman, not being a warrior, or being married to a non-elf. I don't feel strongly either way, just mentioning the possibility. It would basically be a change from the book but also reduce the appearance of sexism in the system (to the extent they have a "system").

It is also possible that Idril has little interest in ruling. The explanation can be wholly separated from her gender.

 

[Faelivrin]

Making Idril Queen would be a change from the text. We should avoid it. I'm trying to reason through the decision process the Noldor would use and I'd like for them reject Idril for a reason other than sexism. Married to a mortal would be a good reason. Nick's suggestion is another: she isn't keen on taking her father's place.

EDIT: I'm wondering at myself for not feeling strongly about preventing a change from the books. ??? I don't know why the idea doesn't bother me. Maybe because the tail end of the book starts to have logic holes and at some point I accepted that some logic holes can't be patched without changes? I dunno. I do think we should avoid making Idril Queen.


I have an idea:
After Turgon dies, there's a delay before they start talking about an official new King. The Noldor are thoroughly broken now. During this time Idril is a sort of de facto civil leader, Tuor and the other surviving captains (were there any?) are the de facto military leaders, and Gil-galad is not quite an adult but almost grown up. Then Maedhros hears that Gondolin has fallen, and sends messengers west looking for the Noldorin survivors to assert his claim that now he should be King. This stimulates the moot that ends up deciding on Gil-galad: by now he's an adult, and most Noldor won't accept an official Queen who is married to a non-elf. Or it causes enough contention that Idril decides to withdraw herself from consideration -- unlike Galadriel, she's not very eager to rule. Everyone rejects Maedhros' claim, of course, because he's a Kinslayer. But the Feanorian messenger finds out that Elwing is alive and has the Silmaril (although the Sindar try to hide it). When the messenger returns to Amon Ereb, that news is what then leads Maedhros to foreswear his Oath.

 

[amysrevenge]

Haha! I feel like we're really honing in on a solution to this whole thing. Love it.

I am also increasingly open to whole-cloth invention and/or deliberate deviation/alteration as we get toward the end of the 1st Age story.

 

[MithLuin]

Agreed.

If Idril was queen, why wouldn't Tolkien mention it?

Because we're getting into the murky time period of 'stories Tolkien never got around to writing.' The last and only version of the Fall of Gondolin is the 1916 version, with the mechanical dragons and the hordes of balrogs. We...won't really be using that. There are more gaps and things that Tolkien just didn't write about in this time period.

Now, with respect to Idril never being named as Queen - I agree that she was not. So, we have to come up with why.

My contention is that no High King was chosen immediately after the fall of Turgon in Gondolin. The retreat to the Isle of Balar did not happen until years after the last sighting of Idril and Tuor, and after Earendil and Elwing were gone for good, too. So, if they waited until then... Gil-galad really is the only one left standing. (Well, only non-Fëanorean, but, well...) That version would require that there be no High King at all for quite some time (say, 50 years). If that were the case, then we would need a reason for them to suddenly want a king again - what precipitates the meeting at which they choose a new High King?

So, either it would be an internal reason (leadership among the motley crew of refugees on the Isle of Balar), or an external reason (the appearance of the fleet of the Host of the Valar). Either way, choosing a High King could be a significant part of those stories if we wanted to tell it that way. There is...less of a reason...to choose a High King at the Havens at the mouth of Sirion - and we know Earendil was lord there.

 

[cellardur]

Any changes we make to the text could have the effect of a pebble starting an avalanche.

I will first address the sexism argument. For me it's more sexist of the Noldor to argue Galadriel is so weak, she we ruled by her husband than the Numenorean decision. Why exactly will Galadriel be ruled by her husband not Finarfin (by his wife), Fingon (should Gil-galad be his son would too have a Sindar wife) or Turgon (I know she is dead, but she was a Vanyar) or even Finwe who married a Vanyar? Why is it only with Galadriel the woman, who will be ruled by her non-Noldor spouse? Why wasn't there open rebellion against the men with non-Noldor wives? The Noldor look far, far more sexist assuming Celeborn will rule over Galadriel, when they ignored the problem for the men.

Secondly I don't think the Noldor are perfect and make perfect decisions. However, it is far less sexist to acknowledge that the Noldor women in general did not focus on warfare (though as Galadriel and Idril show they are capable of fighting when need be), but for the time being in this war they needed a militaristic minded High-King so would choose a man.

As for a clear succession plan, I think there was doubt when Finwe died. The elves are immortal and don't expect their kings to be dying, but they've just declared war with Morgoth. I think it is beyond naive, but verging on foolish for them to assume that no other High-King is going to die. There must be some sort of succession plan even if it was vague. Elf-Lords are constantly being slain in this war.

Then as I said before the role of High-King seems to be almost primarily a military one. The Noldor don't seem to bother listening to the High King much at the best of times and they often rebel against the rulers like in Nargothrond or Eregion or with Feanor. It's very much a position of first amongst equals. We see Fingolfin often being overuled and we see Celebrimbor accepting the friendship of Sauron against the advice of his High-King and possible Lady (ruler) Galadriel.

Lastly I don't we need to be careful on opposing stereotypes that just aren't in the text.

The Sindar in general seem to have a problem with Men and consider them inferior. The Sindar as a whole also don't seem too fond of the Noldor and over time hate the dwarves. This doesn't seem to be a Noldor problem. Idril marries a human, with the approval of all in Gondolin, Aegnor would have married a human had times been different, Turin rules Nargothrond. I can give countless other examples, but even Caranthir treats Men with great honour.

Then Caranthir looked kindly upon Men and did Haleth great honour; and he offered her recompense for her father and brother. And seeing, over late, what valour there was in the Edain, he said to her: 'If you will remove and dwell further north, there you shall have the friendship and protection of the Eldar, and free lands of your own.'

On the other hand the green elves and the Sindar seem to generally have a problem with Men. Saeros hates Turin just because he is a Man. Compare the way the Green Elves treat Men, to one of the worst of Feanor's sons. Caranthir at first gives them little heed, but then he is won over and gives them great honour. The Green Elves on the other hand.

Now the Green-elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund. 'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'

Look at the way Fingon, Finrod and Turgon teat Hurin and Huor, compared with the way Thingol treats Beren, who already has a price on his head equal to High-King of the Noldor.

Thingol spoke slowly, saying: 'Death you have earned with these words; and death you should find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of which I repent, baseborn mortal, who in the realm of Morgoth has learnt to creep in secret as his spies and thralls.'

 

[Faelivrin]

I don't think the suggestion is that the Noldor dislike Tuor or Celeborn, or think they will rule over their wives. I think it's only a question of the propriety of bestowing a very special ceremonial title, normally reserved for a Noldo, upon a non-Noldor or a non-elf.

Finwe was already unquestioned king when he married a Vanya. And some people thought it was a poor idea -- probably not just Feanor.
Fingolfin's wife Anaire was a Noldo, and he left her behind in Valinor, so there was no difficulty of considering her Queen in absentia.
Fingon either had no wife, or would have to be depicted marrying a Noldorin woman, for this all to make sense.
Turgon's wife Elenwe was dead. She was completely out of the picture and thus would not actually be Queen. If the Valar even reincarnated her, she would be somewhere in the West.
Gil-galad's marital status is unknown.
At the time of Gil-galad's death, Galadriel was married to a non-Noldo, while Elrond was unmarried but probably uninterested in the crown.

That's the result of Tolkien frequently writing wives out of the story by killing them, or leaving them in Valinor. Which is an ... awkward pattern.

Making a non-Noldo the Queen or King, or especially a non-elf, would be frowned upon. Much like giving the title Besain or Mesanie (keeper and preparer of the sacred lembas) to a man or a non-elf. Only high-status Elven women were ever allowed to have such a position.

 

[cellardur]

I don't think the suggestion is that the Noldor dislike Tuor or Celeborn, or think they will rule over their wives. I think it's only a question of the propriety of bestowing a very special ceremonial title, normally reserved for a Noldo, upon a non-Noldor or a non-elf.

I don't understand why the spouse of a High-Queen would gain any title. It didn't happen in Numenor and it does not happen in the modern world. Prince Philip is not King of England and either was Prince Albert. Of course in the past like Philip II of Spain and William of Orange they were joint kings, but that does not always have to be the case.

Finwe was already unquestioned king when he married a Vanya. And some people thought it was a poor idea -- probably not just Feanor.
Fingolfin's wife Anaire was a Noldo, and he left her behind in Valinor, so there was no difficulty of considering her Queen in absentia.
Fingon either had no wife, or would have to be depicted marrying a Noldorin woman, for this all to make sense.
Turgon's wife Elenwe was dead. She was completely out of the picture and thus would not actually be Queen. If the Valar even reincarnated her, she would be somewhere in the West.
Gil-galad's marital status is unknown.
At the time of Gil-galad's death, Galadriel was married to a non-Noldo, while Elrond was unmarried but probably uninterested in the crown.

The issue with Finwe's wife seemed more about him taking a second wife rather than her being a Vanyar.
If we give Fingon a wife, she has to be a Sindar to explain how Gil-galad ended up with Cirdan.
Yes I said Turgon's wife was dead, but he was still married to a non-Noldor.

There's never been an issue with the spouse not being of the Noldor and of course there is Finarfin married to a Teleri. If we decide to go that way, then we are going to have to rewrite this prejudice back into the story, which I don't think exist, but if the majority decide so then fair enough.

That's the result of Tolkien frequently writing wives out of the story by killing them, or leaving them in Valinor. Which is an ... awkward pattern.

Making a non-Noldo the Queen or King, or especially a non-elf, would be frowned upon. Much like giving the title Besain or Mesanie (keeper and preparer of the sacred lembas) to a man or a non-elf. Only high-status Elven women were ever allowed to have such a position.

As I said previously they wouldn't have to be King and nothing about the Noldor suggest they have a problem with spouses from different Elves. The way the Noldor accept the leadership of Tuor and then Earendil or even Turin really goes against this point.

Even the Sindar, where they really seems to be a dislike of Men, especially amongst the green elves accept Dior as King.

The Noldor have their problems, but they seem one of the least prejudiced groups of people. They make friends and esteem leaders no matter the background, though at the same time they seem hard to rule and quick to rebel.

 

[Faelivrin]

But I am not talking about prejudice at all, or refusing informal types of leadership by qualified and competent people. I'm not saying the Noldor despise Tuor or Turin or Celeborn or Earwen. Tuor can be informal military leader but we aren't asking why a human was not elected High King of the Noldor. I am talking about a ceremonial title that has rules associated with it. Yes, I am certain that if Finwe is King then his wife is Queen. All the Eldar considered Queen a title of great importance, because the Queen (or otherwise the highest-ranking royal or noble lady) is Mesanie/Besain, the keeper of the sacred Corn of Yavanna and baker of the sacred lembas. That is a very high and important position, an irreplaceable position.

A male elf must never, ever take any part in sowing or tending or harvesting the Corn of Yavanna, nor any part in baking or storing or bestowing the lembas. All of that was very strictly reserved to the women alone. Does that mean that the Eldar look down on men and are sexist? No, it doesn't. It means that they have strict gender roles and ceremonies/rituals.

A non-ruling King is not as important as a Queen-Mesanie because he can have no part in the lembas rituals, but I think it still is a plausible concept for the Noldor to consider it a significant position.

Yes, Earwen is now the Queen of Tirion. But the Valar decreed it, so nobody is going to argue against it.

Keep in mind that the Noldor also determined pretty early on that the Edain needed to have their own human rulers instead of being ruled over directly by Noldorin kings. The Noldor didn't decide that out of prejudice against themselves, nor was it because the Edain were prejudiced against the Noldor. The Noldor thought it was more proper for each group to be ruled by one of their own people.


Queen and King have very different significance in Numenorean society and I don't think it makes sense to compare the two. The Numenorean King or Ruling Queen is the High Priest of Eru, but has nothing to do with the Corn of Yavanna, and at first had nothing to do with warfare. The whole structure of Numenorean society is pretty different, as are their royal inheritance customs (to the degree they make codified, written laws about it.) I think comparing Elves to medieval Europeans is even less relevant, especially since class and religion were so much more important to European royal marriages than ethnicity, but the Noldor don't care at all what class Nerdanel or Anaire were. Elves aren't Humans.

 

[cellardur]

But I am not talking about prejudice at all, or refusing informal types of leadership by qualified and competent people. I'm not saying the Noldor despise Tuor or Turin or Celeborn or Earwen. Tuor can be informal military leader but we aren't asking why a human was not elected High King of the Noldor. I am talking about a ceremonial title that has rules associated with it. Yes, I am certain that if Finwe is King then his wife is Queen. All the Eldar considered Queen a title of great importance, because the Queen (or otherwise the highest-ranking royal or noble lady) is Mesanie/Besain, the keeper of the sacred Corn of Yavanna and baker of the sacred lembas. That is a very high and important position, an irreplaceable position.

A male elf must never, ever take any part in sowing or tending or harvesting the Corn of Yavanna, nor any part in baking or storing or bestowing the lembas. All of that was very strictly reserved to the women alone. Does that mean that the Eldar look down on men and are sexist? No, it doesn't. It means that they have strict gender roles and ceremonies/rituals.

A non-ruling King is not as important as a Queen-Mesanie because he can have no part in the lembas rituals, but I think it still is a plausible concept for the Noldor to consider it a significant position.

Yes, Earwen is now the Queen of Tirion. But the Valar decreed it, so nobody is going to argue against it.

Keep in mind that the Noldor also determined pretty early on that the Edain needed to have their own human rulers instead of being ruled over directly by Noldorin kings. The Noldor didn't decide that out of prejudice against themselves, nor was it because the Edain were prejudiced against the Noldor. The Noldor thought it was more proper for each group to be ruled by one of their own people.


Queen and King have very different significance in Numenorean society and I don't think it makes sense to compare the two. The Numenorean King or Ruling Queen is the High Priest of Eru, but has nothing to do with the Corn of Yavanna, and at first had nothing to do with warfare. The whole structure of Numenorean society is pretty different, as are their royal inheritance customs (to the degree they make codified, written laws about it.) I think comparing Elves to medieval Europeans is even less relevant, especially since class and religion were so much more important to European royal marriages than ethnicity, but the Noldor don't care at all what class Nerdanel or Anaire were. Elves aren't Humans.

I am really not sure how Mesanie and Lembas is applicable. All of the Eldar knew how to make Lembas whether through the Valar or Melian. So why would it matter if the Elf-Queen was Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri or Sindar? They would still know and be able to distribute Lembas. Even in the hypothetical situation where an Elf-Lord was was married to a Woman, the duty would just be passed to the next highest ranking noble.

I don't know where you are getting your information about Eldar royalty from. It's very possible you have read an essay I have not, but if it's just speculation then that's your interpretation.

I really don't get your argument, because it seems to defeat itself.
1. You argue that the Queen is a position that is irreplaceable and highly imporant to the Eldar.
2. You then seem to be arguing that the position of Queen's non-ruling spouse would be important too.
3. So therefore the Noldor wouldn't want a non-Noldor king.

However, your argument falls flat, because the Noldor accepted non-Noldor Queens, which you argue was a very high and important position, an irreplaceable position.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I am really not sure how Mesanie and Lembas is applicable. All of the Eldar knew how to make Lembas whether through the Valar or Melian. So why would it matter if the Elf-Queen was Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri or Sindar? They would still know and be able to distribute Lembas. Even in the hypothetical situation where an Elf-Lord was was married to a Woman, the duty would just be passed to the next highest ranking noble.

I don't know where you are getting your information about Eldar royalty from. It's very possible you have read an essay I have not, but if it's just speculation then that's your interpretation.

I really don't get your argument, because it seems to defeat itself.
1. You argue that the Queen is a position that is irreplaceable and highly imporant to the Eldar.
2. You then seem to be arguing that the position of Queen's non-ruling spouse would be important too.
3. So therefore the Noldor wouldn't want a non-Noldor king.

However, your argument falls flat, because the Noldor excepted non-Noldor Queens, which you argue was a very high and important position, an irreplaceable position.

And all the Noldor kings didn’t have queens present. Plus, there was no queen in the Third Age and Lembas was still distributed.

 

[Faelivrin]

I am making an analogy between the Mesanie/Besain and the High King. Both are very high titles with ceremonial importance. I think it's perfectly plausible to suppose they have similarities in custom. It's more plausible than saying they have to have the same customs as human royalty, who have quite different cultures and needs.

Galadriel was the highest-ranking woman in Lothlorien. A Mesanie does not have to be the Queen, she has to be the highest-ranking woman, which is the Queen if one is available. That is one reason why the Queen is such an important position, and why I am certain that its importance goes back a long way in Eldarin history -- Lembas customs began during the Great March. However, having a Mesanie is even more important than having a Queen, which is why queenless Eldar give the title and responsibility to the highest-ranked Eldarin woman they do have available. Nonetheless, a Mesanie who isn't a Queen does not have the added title of Queen. (Everything I've said about this is from the "Of Lembas" essay in Peoples of Middle-earth.)

If the would-be Queen is unavailable (nonexistant, dead, on another continent) she can't be the Mesanie, because she can't perform any of the duties. She is not the Queen, either. Elenwe was never the Queen of Gondolin, she never set foot there, and in fact Tolkien explicitly said that Gondolin/Turgon had no Queen. Anaire was never the Queen of Hithlum (though she was temporarily acting "queen" of Tirion, if that meant anything). Nerdanel was never the Queen of anyplace. Amarie was never the Queen of Nargothrond. Orodreth's Sindarin wife was probably the Queen of Nargothrond (unless she had died before Finrod) but Orodreth was never High King of the Noldor. None of those women was ever accepted as High Queen of the Noldor, in any text I have read. There is no evidence that they exerted any political or ceremonial influence from across the Sea or posthumously from the Halls of Mandos.

It's much the same way that Finarfin was never King of Hithlum or Gondolin. Hypothetically he outranked Fingon and Turgon, but he wasn't around and wasn't giving them any orders. His actual position was meaningful in Middle-earth only in as much as it conferred status upon his sons and daughter.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So Galadriel had authority to make Lembas?

 

[Haerangil]

yep!

 

[Faelivrin]

She must have been the Besain of Lorien, since no other Lorien woman had a higher rank. Melian was the Besain of Doriath. In the Silmarillion lembas can be given only by the Queen, but that contradicts the LotR where Lorien has no Queen.
Besides the Besain only her assistants, the Ivonwin, are allowed to even touch the plant or grain, or touch the lembas without their permission.