Jim Deutch
Well-Known Member
Nice mega-thread going on Orcs. Do they have souls? Are they irredeemably evil? Why does everyone slaughter them without a qualm?
We've not once mentioned the role of female orcs. Where are they? What is their moral and social status? Does their undoubted existence shed any light on all the questions we've been exploring in "The Orc Problem"?
True, there is a notable lack of females of all races in tLotR (and even more so in The Hobbit), so it's not remarkable that we have little evidence in the books, but that hasn't stopped us yet! Let us speculate. It seems a big enough topic to start a separate thread for it. So here's my speculation:
Where are the Orc women? Everywhere. In the armies. In the guardhouses. At the Black Gate and in Isenguard.
Precedent: we are told that outsiders can't tell the difference between Dwarven males and females. Same thing with Orcs, only even more so.
Evidence from the books: Shagrat and Gorbag, reminiscing about the good old days, and wishing they could get away from it all with "a few good lads". Shagrat and Gorbag are a couple of matriarchs wanting to start their own clan!
I can actually picture a female Orc sneaking off in the middle of a battle to give birth and then returning to the fight with a baby strapped to her back.
S & G give us a glimpse into Orc motivations and desires. I think their conversation shows they have free will, and desire their own kind of "good". Their subsequent fight shows that they, like Elves, cannot escape their Fate.
I hope this post is sufficiently provocative to start a new thread, and will end with a quote from Tom Shippey:
We've not once mentioned the role of female orcs. Where are they? What is their moral and social status? Does their undoubted existence shed any light on all the questions we've been exploring in "The Orc Problem"?
True, there is a notable lack of females of all races in tLotR (and even more so in The Hobbit), so it's not remarkable that we have little evidence in the books, but that hasn't stopped us yet! Let us speculate. It seems a big enough topic to start a separate thread for it. So here's my speculation:
Where are the Orc women? Everywhere. In the armies. In the guardhouses. At the Black Gate and in Isenguard.
Precedent: we are told that outsiders can't tell the difference between Dwarven males and females. Same thing with Orcs, only even more so.
Evidence from the books: Shagrat and Gorbag, reminiscing about the good old days, and wishing they could get away from it all with "a few good lads". Shagrat and Gorbag are a couple of matriarchs wanting to start their own clan!
I can actually picture a female Orc sneaking off in the middle of a battle to give birth and then returning to the fight with a baby strapped to her back.
S & G give us a glimpse into Orc motivations and desires. I think their conversation shows they have free will, and desire their own kind of "good". Their subsequent fight shows that they, like Elves, cannot escape their Fate.
I hope this post is sufficiently provocative to start a new thread, and will end with a quote from Tom Shippey:
Tom Shippey - J.R.R.Tolkien: Author of the Century - Houghton Mifflin said:Orcish behaviour, whether in orcs or in humans, has its root not in an inverted morality which sees bad as good and vice versa, but in a kind of self-centredness which sees indeed what is good -- like standing by one's comrades or being loyal to one's mates -- but is unable to set one's own behaviour in the right place on this accepted scale."