The other red star?

[Flammifer]

Listening (asynchronosly) to the last episode of Exploring TLOTR, when, "low in the South one star shone red," the Professor tried to think of any other references in TLOTR to Mars or a red star.

Corey could not think of any. Nor, I think, did any of the live participants?

However, we have previously encountered a red star in TLOTR. It appeared to the Hobbits when they camped with Gildor's Elves at Woody End.

"Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire."

There was a thread on this forum, I believe, wondering which star or planet Borgil was, with someone even pasting in star charts.

I think both red stars were Mars (though others suggested other reddish stars as possiblities for 'red Borgil').

The contrasted descriptions are interesting. In Woody End, the red star is 'like a jewel of fire', whereas in Rivendell, the red star is 'burning like a watchful eye'. The red star in Woody End is 'glowing', in Rivendell it is 'glaring'.

Does the contrast in descriptions indicate that Frodo's Estel has declined? Was the star a hopeful sign to him in Woody End, while now it is a threatning symbol?

"Health and Hope grew strong in them." But, how strong? Not all that strong in Frodo, judging by his impression of the red star?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Listening (asynchronosly) to the last episode of Exploring TLOTR, when, "low in the South one star shone red," the Professor tried to think of any other references in TLOTR to Mars or a red star.

Corey could not think of any. Nor, I think, did any of the live participants?

However, we have previously encountered a red star in TLOTR. It appeared to the Hobbits when they camped with Gildor's Elves at Woody End.

"Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire."

There was a thread on this forum, I believe, wondering which star or planet Borgil was, with someone even pasting in star charts.

I think both red stars were Mars (though others suggested other reddish stars as possiblities for 'red Borgil').

The contrasted descriptions are interesting. In Woody End, the red star is 'like a jewel of fire', whereas in Rivendell, the red star is 'burning like a watchful eye'. The red star in Woody End is 'glowing', in Rivendell it is 'glaring'.

Does the contrast in descriptions indicate that Frodo's Estel has declined? Was the star a hopeful sign to him in Woody End, while now it is a threatning symbol?

"Health and Hope grew strong in them." But, how strong? Not all that strong in Frodo, judging by his impression of the red star?

Thanks for finding that reference. I was remembering Borgil, but not the context, and being on my lunch break at work wasn’t in a position to look it up.

I certainly find the contrast telling, as much as I find the lack of positive identification of the red star in Rivendell suggestive.
The seemingly deliberate ambiguity allows me to wonder whether this is something Frodo is imagining, as thoughts of the upcoming quest intrude on him in the evening (a time where fears of the future often take strongest hold), or a real star that his mindset invites him to see differently than others might.

I think it might be that Health is growing mostly in Frodo, while Hope is growing mostly in the others, although to be fair Frodo’s hope probably had a long way to go to get back to pre-Weathertop levels.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anthony,

My supposition is that Frodo is seeing a real red star. I think it is the same red star (Borgil) that he saw at Woody End. I think the differences in how he perceives the star are indicative of differences in Frodo's outlook and emotions, not differences in the star.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Hi Anthony,

My supposition is that Frodo is seeing a real red star. I think it is the same red star (Borgil) that he saw at Woody End. I think the differences in how he perceives the star are indicative of differences in Frodo's outlook and emotions, not differences in the star.

I agree that is a valid (and probably the most likely) interpretation, however I can't absolutely rule out the other possibility I proposed.

 

[Rachel Port]

I think Frodo is at peace during the day, able to enjoy what it brings, and to heal and gain strength and hope. But for him, the future is part of the present - he always carries the Ring. In bed at night he is more vulnerable to his fears and his thoughts about the red star reflect the power behind the Ring. Perhaps it is some foreknowledge of what is to come.

 

[Rachel Port]

The contrasted descriptions are interesting. In Woody End, the red star is 'like a jewel of fire', whereas in Rivendell, the red star is 'burning like a watchful eye'. The red star in Woody End is 'glowing', in Rivendell it is 'glaring'.

Does the contrast in descriptions indicate that Frodo's Estel has declined? Was the star a hopeful sign to him in Woody End, while now it is a threatning symbol?

There is one very great difference in the way Frodo would see the red star - he has pledged himself to take the Ring to the Fire. The future has become definite and in that in-between time such thoughts come to him.

 

[Flammifer]

Here, I think, is the real question in this passage:

First, we get, "Health and hope grew strong in them (the Hobbits), and they were content with each good day as it came."

Then we get, "Frodo could see it (the red star) from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley."

Does Frodo ever really have hope grow strong in him? During the entire quest, henceforth, does Frodo ever really feel hope? If he does, is it always overshadowed by dread and despair?

For all the efforts of Gandalf, Bilbo, Sam, to boost Frodo's spirit, does it ever work?

I think we should look at the evidence as we go forward, but there is a suspicion in my mind that Frodo never has Estel or Amdir, once he volunteers to bear the Ring to the Fire. He only has duty, determination, and despair.

 

[Rachel Port]

Yes, he's in a very different position as Ringbearer. I think gaining hope a little is part of his necessary healing, and he can get peace and pleasure - and his time with Bilbo is so important. But his hope is that he'll be able to do this task, in spite of his feelings of smallness and doubt. Gandalf will tell Pippin in Minas Tirith that there never was any hope. And you're right, there is no amdir for any of them, but much less estel for Frodo than the others.

 

[Odola]

Yes, he's in a very different position as Ringbearer. I think gaining hope a little is part of his necessary healing, and he can get peace and pleasure - and his time with Bilbo is so important. But his hope is that he'll be able to do this task, in spite of his feelings of smallness and doubt. Gandalf will tell Pippin in Minas Tirith that there never was any hope. And you're right, there is no amdir for any of them, but much less estel for Frodo than the others.

I thing there is as much estel for Frodo as for any of the others, but that the ring cuts Frodo internally from it and makes Frodo unable to access it and to be stregtened by it. He will have to rely on the estel he sees the others expressing, as he is impaired in accessing his own. But it is not that his estel is dimished in any way per se, it is just that he no longer can feel it. It is like for a person in a depression, his perception of his own feelings is distorted.

 

[Flammifer]

I thing there is as much estel for Frodo as for any of the others, but that the ring cuts Frodo internally from it and makes Frodo unable to access it and to be stregtened by it. He will have to rely on the estel he sees the others expressing, as he is impaired in accessing his own. But it is not that his estel is dimished in any way per se, it is just that he no longer can feel it. It is like for a person in a depression, his perception of his own feelings is distorted.

Interesting perspective Odola,

You seem to think that Estel is an externality, delivered to people, but Frodo is cut off from it?

I think that Estel is internally generated.

Can the Ring cut Frodo off from Estel? I doubt it. I don't think that we see any evidence that the Ring possesses this power?

I do think, however that it could well be that Frodo can not muster any Estel or Amdir in himself once he volunteers to bear the Ring.

Is Frodo carried forward not by Estel, but by duty and determination? Is he representing the fatalistic values of the Anglo-Saxon warriors in the poem, 'The Battle of Malden' (much studied and written about by JRRT)?

"Thought must be the harder, heart the keener
Spirit shall be more - as our might lessens."

Thus spoke Brythwold, the old soldier, rallying the Saxons to fight to the death, even though the battle was lost, some had already fled, and their lord was slain. There was no Amdir, nor Estel, among the Saxons there. But, they did not flee. They stood and died.

 

[Odola]

Interesting perspective Odola,

You seem to think that Estel is an externality, delivered to people, but Frodo is cut off from it?

I think that Estel is internally generated.

Can the Ring cut Frodo off from Estel? I doubt it. I don't think that we see any evidence that the Ring possesses this power?

I do think, however that it could well be that Frodo can not muster any Estel or Amdir in himself once he volunteers to bear the Ring.

Is Frodo carried forward not by Estel, but by duty and determination? Is he representing the fatalistic values of the Anglo-Saxon warriors in the poem, 'The Battle of Malden' (much studied and written about by JRRT)?

"Thought must be the harder, heart the keener
Spirit shall be more - as our might lessens."

Thus spoke Brythwold, the old soldier, rallying the Saxons to fight to the death, even though the battle was lost, some had already fled, and their lord was slain. There was no Amdir, nor Estel, among the Saxons there. But, they did not flee. They stood and died.

No, I do consider estel a gift which is part of a person's heart/internal constitution/nature - in a similar that e.g. "consciensce" or "musicality" or the "ability to love" are. As such it becomes a resource each persons possesses - with individual variations, but still. Sauron's ring seem to alienate a person from hers/his own nature stiving to to corrupt that given nature's streghts and resources. (This one of the reasons Gandalf would not take it.) This corruption is permanent, as it holds on even the ring is destoyed. Something inside Fordo is broken beyond repair - at least this side of the sea. He can find no peace with himself.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Odola,

I agree with most of your thoughts, but am doubtful that the Ring has the power to eliminate Estel. The known workings of the Ring on its bearer are: 1. Makes mortals invisible; 2. Creates extreme possessiveness.

It has been stated that it corrupts it's bearers towards domination and becoming new Dark Lords. (We have not seen this effect really on any of the previous bearers.)

Does bearing the Ring seem to cut Bilbo off from Amdir and Estel? Not at all! Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone and trying to use it to avert war and create peace seems to be both Amdir and Estel hard at work.

I agree that Frodo is broken beyond repair, this side of the Sea. But Bilbo and Sam are not (yet they go beyond the Sea). Was it the Ring that broke Frodo? Or was it something else? The wound from the Morgul blade? His failure at the end of his quest? A task beyond his strength? Some combination of all of these?

 

[Odola]

Hi Odola,
I agree with most of your thoughts, but am doubtful that the Ring has the power to eliminate Estel.

I do not think it eliminates it. It just prevents Frodo from feeling it. Just like anesthesia prevents you from feeling pain even of it is still there.

The known workings of the Ring on its bearer are: 1. Makes mortals invisible; 2. Creates extreme possessiveness.

It has been stated that it corrupts it's bearers towards domination and becoming new Dark Lords. (We have not seen this effect really on any of the previous bearers.)

Does bearing the Ring seem to cut Bilbo off from Amdir and Estel? Not at all! Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone and trying to use it to avert war and create peace seems to be both Amdir and Estel hard at work.

I agree that Frodo is broken beyond repair, this side of the Sea. But Bilbo and Sam are not (yet they go beyond the Sea). Was it the Ring that broke Frodo? Or was it something else? The wound from the Morgul blade? His failure at the end of his quest? A task beyond his strength? Some combination of all of these?

As one part of Sauron's nature is necromancing, I think his ring disrupts a mortal's ability to die the proper way - e.g. to leave Arda as s/he should, (and that the Valar are aware of it because some problems with Isildur leaving Arda from Mandos, and think it better to restore whatever has been broken while the concerned person is still alive). At least this explaines that all the ringbearer leave for Valinor.

Regarding Frodo not feeling esel -the Morgul blade is a good candidate , but had he not had some symtomps before that already befor thet event?

Maybe Frodo is especially vulnerable to the ring because of his traumatic childhood? There must be a unaknowledged "hole in his heart" after the loss of his parent and being a "nobody's child" and hearing all those rumours about his parents death for those years untill Bilbo adopts him? His constitution is sweaken than both Bilbo's and Sam's in this regard.

 

[Flammifer]

Here's an interesting little thought experiment:

Why did JRRT make Frodo the protagonist of TLOTR instead of Bilbo?

It would seem unsurprising for JRRT to mirror his beloved 'Beowulf'. Beowulf is in two parts: Beowulf's fight against Grendel and Mother as a young man, and Beowulf's fight against the Dragon as an old man.

Why not Bilbo's quest to Erebor as a young Hobbit, and Bilbo's quest of the Ring as an old Hobbit?

Bilbo might be a better choice by Providence as Ring-bearer than Frodo? He is more experienced. He has more Estel. He is more willing. There is really no evidence that he would find it harder to resist the Ring than Frodo, or that he would be less likely to give it up and throw it into the fire?

Compare and contrast Bilbo and Frodo. Why did JRRT not just mirror 'Beowulf' and make Bilbo the protagonist of both quests? What is it about the differences between Bilbo and Frodo which JRRT thought were important? Why create a new protagonist for TLOTR?

 

[Odola]

Here's an interesting little thought experiment:

Why did JRRT make Frodo the protagonist of TLOTR instead of Bilbo?

It would seem unsurprising for JRRT to mirror his beloved 'Beowulf'. Beowulf is in two parts: Beowulf's fight against Grendel and Mother as a young man, and Beowulf's fight against the Dragon as an old man.

Why not Bilbo's quest to Erebor as a young Hobbit, and Bilbo's quest of the Ring as an old Hobbit?

Bilbo might be a better choice by Providence as Ring-bearer than Frodo? He is more experienced. He has more Estel. He is more willing. There is really no evidence that he would find it harder to resist the Ring than Frodo, or that he would be less likely to give it up and throw it into the fire?

Compare and contrast Bilbo and Frodo. Why did JRRT not just mirror 'Beowulf' and make Bilbo the protagonist of both quests? What is it about the differences between Bilbo and Frodo which JRRT thought were important? Why create a new protagonist for TLOTR?

I think Tolkien found Bilbo too old.

And what made Frodo different? Most hobbits have an intect family childhood. Frodo is as exception. He is used to suffering from childhood. This make him fer less naive than Bilbo is - even in his old age.

But is this really an advantage?

But Frodo is a more balanced, stable narrator imho than Bilbo the Entertainer.

 

[Rachel Port]

Bilbo might be a better choice by Providence as Ring-bearer than Frodo? He is more experienced. He has more Estel. He is more willing. There is really no evidence that he would find it harder to resist the Ring than Frodo, or that he would be less likely to give it up and throw it into the fire?

Compare and contrast Bilbo and Frodo. Why did JRRT not just mirror 'Beowulf' and make Bilbo the protagonist of both quests? What is it about the differences between Bilbo and Frodo which JRRT thought were important? Why create a new protagonist for TLOTR?

I don't think Frodo is broken yet. I think the quest - both his wounds, struggle to carry the Ring through the darkness that fell upon him in Mordor, these things break him. But he is the better bearer because at this point he is not broken yet. But his character has more depth, perhaps because of the childhood traumas Odolo refers to above.

Bilbo has stolen the Arkenstone after Thorin has already told them that it is the one thing he reserves for himself. When he is troubled by the war he sees building up, he figures out a way to use the Arkenstone to stop that war. And that's the problem. He chooses to use it. He has been told over months, if not years, of the dangers of the Ring, by Gandalf, Aragorn, and Elrond, and yet has not grasped it, and does not grasp it until he sees it in action in Frodo's face. He has not been able to understand at all the effect it has had on himself until he sees it working on Frodo, and then is able to examine his own experience with it more deeply. Without that intermediary of his love for Frodo, would he have been able to see it at all? And more important, would he have been tempted to use it for good, as he used the Arkenstone? And the Arkenstone was a neutral object, not a Ring with powers of its own. I don't think his having given up the Arkenstone means he would have been able to give up the Ring.

Frodo, on the other hand, was able to grasp the enormity of the Ring problem right after Gandalf tells him about it, in spite of his equivocating along the way, and was able to see what he had to do, at least as far as possible at that point. And in the Council he sees his task more clearly. I think his very unwillingness becomes a strength - without seeing that unwillingness in him, would Elrond have come to his realization that Frodo was the right person for the quest? Don't forget, Elrond has been observing and making up his mind about Frodo all through the Council. I don't think he is fully convinced until he sees Frodo's reluctance.

 

[Flammifer]

Good thoughts Odola and Rachel,

I think you are right that if Bilbo had been the Ring-bearer (I don't think, Odola, that JRRT considered Bilbo to be too old. The Ring was stopping him from aging normally, and, anyway, JRRT could have set TLOTR in any timeframe after The Hobbit that he wanted to.) the story would probably have turned out more like Beowulf.

More tragic than it did.

Bilbo might have been a more jaunty and daring and action oriented hero than Frodo. He might have been more optomistic. He might have been more surprised to find that this quest was far more daunting and dangerous, and altogether too much for him. If the Ring had gone into the Fire at the end, I don't think Bilbo would have survived (though he might have died heroically).

 

[Odola]

Good thoughts Odola and Rachel,

I think you are right that if Bilbo had been the Ring-bearer (I don't think, Odola, that JRRT considered Bilbo to be too old. The Ring was stopping him from aging normally, and, anyway, JRRT could have set TLOTR in any timeframe after The Hobbit that he wanted to.) the story would probably have turned out more like Beowulf.

More tragic than it did.

Bilbo might have been a more jaunty and daring and action oriented hero than Frodo. He might have been more optomistic. He might have been more surprised to find that this quest was far more daunting and dangerous, and altogether too much for him. If the Ring had gone into the Fire at the end, I don't think Bilbo would have survived (though he might have died heroically).

Bilbo would draw to much attention to himself. He could even try to have a witty conversation with Sauron like he had with Smaug. I think he would do fine against Shelob though.

 

[Flammifer]

Sauron: "And who exactly are you?"

Bilbo: "Mushroom hunter; Ferry rider; I have been under a tree but not inside it; Buried alive and escaped the dead; He who jumped the moon, but came down too soon; wraithified and unwraithified; He who frequently emerges from underground; Known as 'hotfoot' among Trolls; I come from over the water and by water; I am prisoner and escapee; Spider's bane; but, who are you? And don't you seem to be missing something? A whole finger I believe!

Or, maybe Bilbo would have learned something and remembered, "Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!"

 

[Rachel Port]

By the way, here is the earlier thread about Borgil.

Identification of Borgil as Mars

Hi! As already discussed in Episode 13 around the 1:22:00 mark, "red Borgil" is normally associated to Aldebaran, with other candidates being Betlegeuse and Mars. I think Betlegeuse can be easily discarded, and Mars is normally discarded due to two reasons: 1. Although it can be seen around...

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