The "other side" from another perspective.

[Forodan]

The post "Impact of the Ring on the Wraith world" has lead me to go ahead and post something I considered but was reluctant to mention because it looks so far ahead. I don't think there is any reason to think that the Ring itself had any "impact on the wraith world" because it's not the "wraith" world, it's just another part of the real world that everyone lives in. And dies in. This is an important point.

There is one more mention of the "other world" in The Lord of the Rings long after the issues over Frodo's near-wraithification are forgotten. Most people read right past it without recognizing what is being said and what it implies. It occurs in book 4 at the end of The Two Towers as Sam is listening to the orcs that have captured the unconscious Frodo after he was poisoned by Shelob.

“No, I don’t know,” said Gorbag’s voice. “The messages go through quicker
than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don’t enquire how it’s done. Safest not
to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon
as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes
‘em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so it’s no use grumbling. I tell you, it’s no
game serving down in the city.”

This one sentence, that so many people pass right by because of the other drama going on in this passage, implies a whole world-view, and the fate of a -- species? race?

And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.

Gorbag is apparently reporting first-hand experience. Of having his "body" skinned off!? And when this happens, you are left "all cold in the dark on the other side." How many people remember that phrase "the other side" by this point in the books, I wonder? The implications of this are huge. It is clearly stated in the various versions of the Silmarillion that the souls of Elves do not leave the world, and they can be "reincarnated" in some fashion. Exactly how is not clearly decided by Tolkien. In some of his writings they are actually "born again" as infants and have to physically grow up again. But in other versions they can gradually reform a physical body much like the Maiar and Valar do, just much more slowly. But for Gorbag to report what he does, he must have died himself, probably more than once, and returned to a physical body to tell the tale. This isn't simply a matter of recalling ancient history, such as the "bad old days" of Gondorian warriors fighting in Mordor. So this is not an issue of whether Orcs are physically non-ageing like Elves, he must have in fact died and returned.

This implies that Sauron has inherited, or perhaps seized control of, much more than just some monsters that Melkor left behind. He must also have taken over many of the 'magical' or even 'spiritual' legacies behind those monsters that Melkor had created. It is clearly stated in the Ainulindale that: "To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren." All of his brethren would include Mandos, the judge of the dead with power over the spirits. For Gorbag to have died and returned again as an Orc, there must be some sort of "reincarnation" for Orcs, probably arranged by Melkor himself in some fashion. It is fascinating to wonder if this is just the inherent nature of Orcs to be reincarnated back into their own race automatically, or if this requires some sort of "attention" and/or "work" by Sauron to maintain. Do Orcs get "judged" by Sauron and possibly locked up in his equivalent of the spiritual Halls of Mandos for not succeeding in some war? But then just getting reincarnated as slaves again is a punishment in itself. This puts Orcs in a sort of negative Valhalla, fighting and dying and being reborn somehow (probably not in the same way as Elves) for as long as the world lasts. Or at least as long as Sauron's power lasts. Which isn't much longer by the time this passage occurs. No wonder they refer to all the enemies of Sauron as "rebels" -- Sauron is indeed a god to them. He has apparently complete control over their existence. Even death is not an escape.

Anyway, this further implies that the effect that the Rings of Power have on mortals is not so much "unnatural" (though it is apparently unauthorized -- Mandos is stated not to have the authority to hold the souls of Men from leaving the world) but simply a use of the powers that Melkor/Sauron have access to. The "other side" is simply where the spiritual realities are perceptible. And I have to wonder if "vision" is simply a metaphor for being able to perceive this world. There is a sort of opposition between this world and the world of sunlight. Not only the wraiths, but Frodo also, can perceive things in this world better when the sun is not in the sky and the visible world is not so intense.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Forodan,

I love your catching of that sentence by Gorbag, that references wraithification by Nazgul.

However, I see no reason to suppose that Gorbag himself has been skinned of his body, and left all cold and dark on the other side. And, no reason to suppose that Gorbag (or other orcs) have been re-incarnated.

A simpler explanation would be that Gorbag has either heard stories of Nazgul wraithifying people, or, perhaps, witnessed it. There is no need for him to have experienced it.

I surmise that Sauron and his Nazgul have likely tried to create additional Nazgul through application of those of the Seven Rings for Dwarves which they hold, to humans. (I surmise that this didn't work, as there would be more than nine Nazgul if it had.) The Nazgul could also have created wraiths (perhaps with lesser powers) via the 'Morgul Blade' method.

 

[Lalaith]

I think this is a really good passage to look at!

I also agree with Flammifier that it is unlikely that Gorbag has literally been resurrected, or even visited the wraith world to the extent that others have. That being said, I think there is a lot of really key information you both have brought up, and I almost wonder if this is said by Gorbag to more express the sort of "chill" or ill feelings that we have seen come over a person when they encounter the Nazgul.

Perhaps what he has experienced is just a temporary shift in the world around him (and his comfort level) to a space which is closer to the wraith world whenever a Nazgul comes close? And perhaps this is what anyone experiences when near to them?

 

[Jim Deutch]

And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.

Gorbag is apparently reporting first-hand experience. Of having his "body" skinned off!? And when this happens, you are left "all cold in the dark on the other side." How many people remember that phrase "the other side" by this point in the books, I wonder?

I have all sorts of crazy theories about Orcs, and especially about Shagrat and Gorbag, but this is a new one on me... I definitely believe that Orcs have the long life of Elves, largely because of things like their ability to recognize "beater and biter" in The Hobbit, swords which have been lost for an Age or so, and other things that sound like ancient, but personal, memories. But Elvish-style reincarnation I had never thought of!

Of course, we know (also from The Hobbit) that Orcs multiply the same way everyone else does: Gollum likes going after the "little squeekers" because a young orc is easier to throttle. But it could fit the older pattern for Elvish reincarnation, where your dead grandpa could be reborn as your son and gradually regain his old memories and skills as he became adult.

Tolkien struggled with issues of Orcish souls and Elvish reincarnation and never fully resolved them to his own satisfaction; I doubt we can do better, but it's still fun to think on it...

 

[Forodan]

I have all sorts of crazy theories about Orcs, and especially about Shagrat and Gorbag, but this is a new one on me... I definitely believe that Orcs have the long life of Elves, largely because of things like their ability to recognize "beater and biter" in The Hobbit, swords which have been lost for an Age or so, and other things that sound like ancient, but personal, memories. But Elvish-style reincarnation I had never thought of!

Of course, we know (also from The Hobbit) that Orcs multiply the same way everyone else does: Gollum likes going after the "little squeekers" because a young orc is easier to throttle. But it could fit the older pattern for Elvish reincarnation, where your dead grandpa could be reborn as your son and gradually regain his old memories and skills as he became adult.

Tolkien struggled with issues of Orcish souls and Elvish reincarnation and never fully resolved them to his own satisfaction; I doubt we can do better, but it's still fun to think on it...

Yes, it does clearly say in The Silmarillion that Orcs reproduce "after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar". But the manner in which souls of Elves would "re-incarnate" is less well determined. As is well-known by now, Tolkien doesn't seem to have settled on how that occurs. And, he also doesn't seem to have settled on the origins of Orcs, which leaves questions about the nature of their 'souls' very open. The story about captured and corrupted Elves is just one of the guesses by Eldarin loremasters, though this was used in The Silmarillion published in 1976 and his other ideas were not published for many years after. There was also something in Morgoth's Ring (1993) about the cross-breeding of various beasts and even Maiar in Morgoth's service to produce something different from any of the Free Peoples.

There are problems with all of the various speculations. If Orcs were originally Elves, then in order to keep a supply of slaves that get killed so often Morgoth would have to have 'captured' the souls of the Elves he twisted and brought them permanently under his control. A very ugly deed if so. But if he created Orcs "from whole cloth" then he would seem to have the ability to 'create' souls! Another very disturbing thought. Apparently the compromise Tolkien was working on was that Maiar taking physical form could have physical children, and these had 'souls' (viz, Luthien, daughter of Melian). So if they allowed Morgoth to breed them with various other creatures something intelligent enough to be a useful slave could be produced, and would have a 'soul' that could be managed in whatever way the more powerful Maiar and Valar had for controlling them. (This in itself is a gap in Tolkien's published lore. Why is any soul compelled to obey Mandos? Why can't souls just fly off to wherever they want to go if they don't like staying in the halls of Mandos?)

In any case, I cannot understand the attempt to interpret the original statement as anything other than Gorbag speaking of his own experience. This is not a narrative metaphor like balrog 'wings'. It is the character's own words, and the words are very clear. Having your body "skinned off" is not wraithification. It's death by violence, with a "soul" of some sort experiencing the separation.. Strider does state about the Nazgul, apparently after being told by those Eldarin loremasters, "And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it." ("A Knife in the Dark") So it doesn't seem unlikely that Nazgul would occasionally murder some living servant of Sauron out of sheer, literal bloodlust. One of the professors early lectures attempts to debunk balrog 'wings', and I think he will see the only possible interpretation of this passage as well, but I suppose I will have to wait until 2025 for the course to reach this part of the story.

 

[Gorhendad The Old]

I wonder if it might be worth recalling the Lord of the Nazgul's hideous threat to Eowyn at this point - "Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

Is this threat the same fate that Gorbag describes?

That said, I'd always previously taken Gorbag's description as being figurative - a surprisingly imaginative attempt to describe the feeling of being interrogated/tortured/punished (I doubt the distinction is very relevant!) by the Nazgul. That is to say he is not describing _death_ as such but a deathlike experience. However I'm now in considerable doubt.

 

[Forodan]

Not the same fate, but clearly based on the same powers over spirits. Orcs must be reincarnated somehow in order for Gorbag to tell his story. But it does seem likely that dead orcs get an unfriendly "interview" with their master that might be close to what the Witch King is threatening Eowyn with. A "soul" without a body should be summoned to the Halls of Mandos. But Sauron is a rebel from the spiritual order, and either has powers himself, or has gained powers from somewhere else (Morgoth's residual power/presence in the world), to restrain souls/spirits -- of Men or others -- from their proper fate. Else, the Nazgul would have been dead and gone millennia ago.

 

[Jim Deutch]

But Sauron is a rebel from the spiritual order, and either has powers himself, or has gained powers from somewhere else (Morgoth's residual power/presence in the world), to restrain souls/spirits -- of Men or others -- from their proper fate. Else, the Nazgul would have been dead and gone millennia ago.

If that is the case, then so had Isildur, who laid the curse on the army of the Dead who then "stuck around" for 1500 years before Aragorn summoned them to battle. No, I think it's more confused than that; I'm convinced that there is no one theory that tidies these issues all up into a neat package that is consistent with the existing canon.

Wait a minute: I'm repeating myself. No matter: I really LIKE this thread, even though I disagree with most everything that's been written in it, to one degree or another (including my own)!

 

[Forodan]

No, I don't think Isildur had the power all by himself to condemn those hill-men to stay in the world until their oath was fulfilled. They swore an oath, always a dangerous thing to do in Tolkien's work, and whatever power they named in that oath would have been far more responsible for the consequences of breaking it. Most likely it was Eru, you know. The Numenoreans would probably require an oath to be before the One, not some imaginary deity of the hill-men. Which shows us that Eru is not entirely as benevolent as the Ainulindale would have it... Anyway, Isildur may have had a lucky guess in naming the consequences of their oath-breaking, or Eru may have taken a hint from his choice, but I do not believe that Isildur himself had any direct power in the matter beyond the moral high-ground.