The Stockade

[Odola]

Right, whether or not this matches a particular historical culture, it is the story being told in the episode being discussed above.

Isn't that what was hold againts Peter Jackson's movies that some of his scenarios were often complete bereft of any historic reality and practicability?
Is this not exactly what we want to avoid here? We do not want it to look like a prehistoric "Disney castle" - with just the superficial looks and no sense at all - or a mere symbolic theatrical background? That would just look "plastic" and not organic.

There were plenty enough of empty hillforts where you do have only (quite impresive) fortifications and nothings at all visible inside. Maybe for precious livestock to protect againsts the likes of Cú Chulainn.

But there has to be a grainary of some sort, some stock of burning wood, and mitten pits and a main road - even if overgron, but still planned out, and an outside communal gathering place.

Even if they do not live there, at least each year at least one representant of each family would come there for a few days on a fixed time to maintain it, repair and stock up usually. Otherwise such a place would break down after just a few years - those structures are build and maitained by many hands working together - they do not have power tools so that just 2-3 adults would be able to make a needed mayor repair.

And the well, does it go down to the ground water level of the river or where does the water comes from? An underground stream flowing to the river? A hill behing the stockade makes no sense - it would be easy to attact it from there.

Is there a gatehouse where the guardian should live or do they have an extra separate house?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Isn't that what was hold againts Peter Jackson's movies that some of his scenarios were often complete bereft of any historic reality and practicability?
Is this not exactly what we want to avoid here? We do not want it to look like a prehistoric "Disney castle" - with just the superficial looks and no sense at all - or a mere symbolic theatrical background? That would just look "plastic" and not organic.

Better than Game of Thrones, where (among other things) they have light cavalry charging headlong into a wall of the undead, deploying their army and their artillery in front of their trench, and barely using their castle until they need to retreat. There’s multiple articles with military consultants about the main characters’ incompetence with dealing with the White Walkers. At least the Rohirrim used their castle from the get-go at Helm’s Deep, imagine if they’d deployed in front of it.

Game of Thrones Battle of Winterfell: Two military experts explain why Jon and Dany’s strategy sucked

It wasn’t as bad as you think. It was worse.

www.vox.com

The Battle of Winterfell: A Tactical Analysis

If you're going up against an army of the undead, maybe plan a little better.

www.wired.com

The Battle Of Winterfell On 'Game Of Thrones' Was A Tactical Clusterf*ck – And A Military Officer Told Us Why - SlashFilm

Did the Battle of Winterfell strategy seem...well, BAD to you? That's because it was, according to a soldier with years of experience on the battlefield.

www.slashfilm.com

 

[Odola]

View attachment 3706

Found something almost exaclty like it:

No problem of making it smaller as wanted (blue line). Wells are recorded- a pond is visible.

Here the elevations levels:

http://www.msh-clermont.fr/sites/msh-clermont.fr/files/Images/2-RechValo-7-Manifestations/gondole2.jpg

Protectected site used agriculturally - so no risk of anything permanent modern building being build on it anymore.

France:
Google translated from : http://www.oppida.org/page.php?lg=fr&rub=00&id_oppidum=101

The oppidum of Gondole is established on a promontory with slightly steep slopes, overlooking the confluence of the Allier and the Auzon for about twenty meters. It is blocked, to the south-west, by an imposing Fécamp-type rampart 600 m long, the height of which is preserved over nearly 6 m, and preceded by a ditch. An interruption in this rampart constitutes the entry system. The enclosed area is estimated at 28 hectares.
It was only at the end of the 1980s that the site was definitely considered a Gallic establishment.
The internal organization of the site is known through the aerial photographs which covered 3 hectares. These revealed a concentration of excavated structures generally of large dimensions (pits, cellars, etc.), rigorously organized around an orthogonal network of linear structures (ditches, palisades).
The excavations carried out at the front of the rampart, outside the oppidum, revealed the presence of a district with an essentially artisanal vocation, characterized by a structuring of the space around a main traffic axis leading towards the entrance of the oppidum. Various structures revolve around this axis: wells, cellars, cellars ... Pottery craftsmanship is particularly well documented, with the presence of seven potters' ovens associated with pits linked to the preparation of clay, as well as with abundant ceramic furnishings. Other craft activities are evidenced by the furniture: metallurgy, tabletterie. Furniture testifying to the high status of the occupants (imports, weapons, adornments, toiletries) is associated with artisanal waste.
To the north of the road is an area with an essentially funeral character, with in particular the presence of burials of men and horses. Aerial surveys have also made it possible to detect a large number of other structures outside the oppidum, bringing the total area occupied to more than 40 hectares.
The chronology of the site, established mainly from recent excavations, is centered on La Tène D2, a period that can be divided into two distinct phases: La Tène D2a and La Tène D2b. Some Gallo-Roman building elements are also noted, as well as a small medieval village.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Isn't that what was hold againts Peter Jackson's movies that some of his scenarios were often complete bereft of any historic reality and practicability?
Is this not exactly what we want to avoid here? We do not want it to look like a prehistoric "Disney castle" - with just the superficial looks and no sense at all - or a mere symbolic theatrical background? That would just look "plastic" and not organic.

While I agree that historical reality is something we should keep an eye on, one would be hard-pressed to find a historical culture of Neolithic homestead farmers who start to coalesce into a single people in response to encounters with flying, supernatural monsters. To say nothing of the rumors of Orcs, or even the mysterious and (lightly) super-powered Elves.

Doesn't mean we have to throw historical cultures out the window, but we can certainly take a bit of artistic license.

So, what the story that has been decided upon calls for is a hall or longhouse that can _hold_ somewhere around 700-900 people in a dire emergency, or _house_ about 100-200 people for a week or two.

The Iriquois had structures that if scaled up.could certainly fill the bill





And if construction methods were scaled back in technology, there are European structures that could work as well.



Probably would want to get away from the ship's hull motif there, but it isn't far off.


And there certainly could be room for some tents in a pinch, as this is a farming homestead we're talking about.

 

[Odola]

While I agree that historical reality is something we should keep an eye on, one would be hard-pressed to find a historical culture of Neolithic homestead farmers who start to coalesce into a single people in response to encounters with flying, supernatural monsters. To say nothing of the rumors of Orcs, or even the mysterious and (lightly) super-powered Elves.

Doesn't mean we have to throw historical cultures out the window, but we can certainly take a bit of artistic license.

So, what the story that has been decided upon calls for is a hall or longhouse that can _hold_ somewhere around 700-900 people in a dire emergency, or _house_ about 100-200 people for a week or two.

The Iriquois had structures that if scaled up.could certainly fill the bill

View attachment 3708

View attachment 3710View attachment 3711

And if construction methods were scaled back in technology, there are European structures that could work as well.

View attachment 3709

Probably would want to get away from the ship's hull motif there, but it isn't far off.


And there certainly could be room for some tents in a pinch, as this is a farming homestead we're talking about.

The Iriquois structure, if "scaled up" would no be stucturally sound imho.
For European I would simply go with a neolitic longhouse. Those could be really long and as they were singe level, one could make them even longer, no problem. No need to reinvent the wheel imho.

https://www.biskupin.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/osada-rolnicy-1024x683-640x480_c.jpg

The problem is the European audience - it knows vaguely how Neolithic/Copper Age/prehistoric look looks like from school and a local archeolgical park (and any area has some of those here) and has a vage idea of European mythology and would spot a building too much out of place historically (like e. g. a venetian palazzo in th Shire) in an instant even if one could not werbalize what exactly is wrong with it - it would "just feel not right".

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The Iriquois structure, if "scaled up" would no be stucturally sound imho.

Native American structures can be made longer just as easily as European ones. And if, as you say, a European structure will be jarring if changed in size and scale, we should be using a completely original style to go with our fictional culture.

 

[Haerangil]

Isn't that what was hold againts Peter Jackson's movies that some of his scenarios were often complete bereft of any historic reality and practicability?
Is this not exactly what we want to avoid here? We do not want it to look like a prehistoric "Disney castle" - with just the superficial looks and no sense at all - or a mere symbolic theatrical background? That would just look "plastic" and not organic.

There were plenty enough of empty hillforts where you do have only (quite impresive) fortifications and nothings at all visible inside. Maybe for precious livestock to protect againsts the likes of Cú Chulainn.

But there has to be a grainary of some sort, some stock of burning wood, and mitten pits and a main road - even if overgron, but still planned out, and an outside communal gathering place.

Even if they do not live there, at least each year at least one representant of each family would come there for a few days on a fixed time to maintain it, repair and stock up usually. Otherwise such a place would break down after just a few years - those structures are build and maitained by many hands working together - they do not have power tools so that just 2-3 adults would be able to make a needed mayor repair.

And the well, does it go down to the ground water level of the river or where does the water comes from? An underground stream flowing to the river? A hill behing the stockade makes no sense - it would be easy to attact it from there.

Is there a gatehouse where the guardian should live or do they have an extra separate house?

I take it like this:

The scenario is that this is the Haladin's very last refuge.They have not had any real experiences with fortifations before, yet they know there is an orc army rolling towards them.

They gather under a single chieftain who has the reputation to u ite and lead their clans, he chooses all they can do is make one big last stand.

He finds a place, a triangle between two large rivers... knowing the Orcs and trolls hatred for water this both traps him and his folk within the triangle, but also restricts the orcs way of access to the broad northern route...

He chooses there is one thing to do: build a great stockade wall and man it heavily with all manpower he can mobilize and defend it to the death wirh all possibility. How do you defend a large wooden wall? (Possibly upon an earth dike -even if not mentioned, and with towers). I believe he would try to man the fortifications with as many slingers, archers, speer throwers and spearmen he can equip to hope to break wave after wave of his enemy approaching - of course they'd also need very long spears against trolls, fell the all the close woods to take his enemies cover... and hope for some assistance by the light of the sun.

 

[Haerangil]

As for the architectural style...
I looooove those iroquis houses!

But i also tend towards flat and very long houses, such as those Tolkien drew on his mirkwood map and some other occasions

 

[Odola]

I take it like this:

The scenario is that this is the Haladin's very last refuge.They have not had any real experiences with fortifations before, yet they know there is an orc army rolling towards them.

They gather under a single chieftain who has the reputation to u ite and lead their clans, he chooses all they can do is make one big last stand.

He finds a place, a triangle between two large rivers... knowing the Orcs and trolls hatred for water this both traps him and his folk within the triangle, but also restricts the orcs way of access to the broad northern route...

He chooses there is one thing to do: build a great stockade wall and man it heavily with all manpower he can mobilize and defend it to the death wirh all possibility. How do you defend a large wooden wall? (Possibly upon an earth dike -even if not mentioned, and with towers). I believe he would try to man the fortifications with as many slingers, archers, speer throwers and spearmen he can equip to hope to break wave after wave of his enemy approaching - of course they'd also need very long spears against trolls, fell the all the close woods to take his enemies cover... and hope for some assistance by the light of the sun.

Hot wood tar thrown from above, stones, anthing heavy, even hot water, if there. Best is hot porrige, but that is not to spare.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, they use stones and boiling water. Water is the one thing they are not running low on.

At no point did I suggest building a Disney castle, nor did I insist that the space be absent of storage for wood, food, or other supplies. Presumably they have considered the question of sewage as well, though we would not be depicting that. I'm not saying that the hall need have a particular design nor dimensions. Merely that...there should be one. The details and particulars of the design are what we are setting out to discuss here, so relevant historical examples are certainly welcome.

All I am asking is that we work within the parameters already set. A fort designed to house 9,000 people may be interesting in a discussion of historical places, but has no bearing on the story being told about the Haladin in Season 5 of Silm Film. This is a much smaller group (perhaps 300-400 are gathered in the Stockade during the Siege). And as this is not their permanent residence, they do not have permanent structures to live in there. We are not portraying a thriving town behind a wall; we are portraying refugees under siege at the brink of death and destruction. Their supplies of food are exhausted.

Why a smaller group? Why not thousands of people? One reason is practical, and another is story-based.
This story is about these people coalescing around Haleth as a charismatic leader. She has to be personally known by everyone for this story to work.

Yes, the Stockade is community-built and (presumably) community-maintained. We will not be depicting the yearly work parties to keep up the place, but we certainly show the work being done during construction and the gathering of the community in this space to celebrate together.

 

[Odola]

Native American structures can be made longer just as easily as European ones. And if, as you say, a European structure will be jarring if changed in size and scale, we should be using a completely original style to go with our fictional culture.

The Native American house is two levels high, isn't it? This is structurally more demanding. The Neolitic longhouse (comes from the Near East originally, like farming itself) was one level - up to 45 m long (ca 148 feet) and can be easily made twice as long or more with exact the same technology.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The Native American house is two levels high, isn't it? This is structurally more demanding. The Neolitic longhouse (comes from the Near East originally, like farming itself) was one level - up to 45 m long (ca 148 feet) and can be easily made twice as long or more with exact the same technology.

Single level. Same as the Scandinavian structure.

 

[Haerangil]

Some iroquis longhouses almost look like european half-framework houses...
Without the characteristic german plaster of course. But it still basically is a large wooden frame structure filled in with wickerworks or similar woven woods.

 

[Haerangil]

There are some more thoughts i had:

1.i am not that sure anymore on the Haladin not knowing anything about siege and defense.Being the descendants of wandering nomads, their ancestors might have done similar things before, similar to what Haldad does :collecting a larger group of people in a defendeable position and build a fortification which is not intended to last long, but to be an effective short-term defense.

2. I know and do understand the desire of depicting the Haladin as a smaller group, as it is about movie-making and it has to work optically for an audience. But realistically speaking i find a such small group hard to believe storywise.They would not be much of a threat to an army and not much of an interest for anybody either.But i don't wish to argue over this... just, my reading of the situation was a different one.

 

[Odola]

While I agree that historical reality is something we should keep an eye on, one would be hard-pressed to find a historical culture of Neolithic homestead farmers who start to coalesce into a single people in response to encounters with flying, supernatural monsters. To say nothing of the rumors of Orcs, or even the mysterious and (lightly) super-powered Elves.

Doesn't mean we have to throw historical cultures out the window, but we can certainly take a bit of artistic license.

So, what the story that has been decided upon calls for is a hall or longhouse that can _hold_ somewhere around 700-900 people in a dire emergency, or _house_ about 100-200 people for a week or two.

The Iriquois had structures that if scaled up.could certainly fill the bill

View attachment 3708

View attachment 3710View attachment 3711

And if construction methods were scaled back in technology, there are European structures that could work as well.



Probably would want to get away from the ship's hull motif there, but it isn't far off.


And there certainly could be room for some tents in a pinch, as this is a farming homestead we're talking about.

The first of the Iriquois house is very high and has a reltively flat roof.
Does the second involve leather? The framework seems complex and thought out architectually.
The issue is: if we take relatively recent technology - even if we think it simple - it has had several millenia more to develop.
American Indian are not Stone Age people. They had plenty of time to perfect their technology - and it is not right to dismiss that.

 

[Haerangil]

For defenseable structures which are primarily intended as a shelter, not a permanent home i'd also think flat structures could be more appropiate.Though if they had more time to plan these structures... i'd actually suggest them build a bit deeper, more into the earth, like some germanic housetypes which seemingly were intended to store foodstuffs and keep them cold and dry.

How many flying creatures, Vampires and great bats, does Gothmog's host have? And do the Haladin know about them?

 

[MithLuin]

Boldog's host consists of orcs. No vampires. Thuringwethil is very loyal to Sauron.

There are some more thoughts i had:

2. I know and do understand the desire of depicting the Haladin as a smaller group, as it is about movie-making and it has to work optically for an audience. But realistically speaking i find a such small group hard to believe storywise.They would not be much of a threat to an army and not much of an interest for anybody either.But i don't wish to argue over this... just, my reading of the situation was a different one.

I understand the frustration. We want to work on a scale of an entire culture, and yet...don't want the individuals to get lost in the crowd on film. I named about 7-8 supporting characters in the script for this episode (not in the text), and Corey Olsen immediately pointed out that it seemed like a lot of characters. It's fine to have people, but asking the audience to learn who all these people are is a challenge.

So, even though the cast is mainly made up of 'nameless background characters', there simply isn't visual/mental space for a cast of thousands. We can definitely imply that the world is larger than we show, but we can't truly depict a massive people group and tell the story of Haleth.

Hador will be different. We *do* have space to depict a large number of people at Estolad.

 

[Haerangil]

I didn't wish to quarrel

 

[Haerangil]

Boldog's host consists of orcs. No vampires. Thuringwethil is very loyal to Sauron.

That is quite good for the Haladin! Did we decide on artillery?

I guess Gothmog's army is intended to be very mobile, so i believe they don'tnhave much else but big creatures, throwing stuff - which still is quite awful for the Haladin and anyone defending a wooden structure against humanoid catapults...

Also i have been thinking...

Would a horseshoe or wedge-form for the stockade make some sense or not?Would a straighth "wall" be really better or possibly weaker? Especially if one counts in the possibility of either inner secondory palisades and corridors or outer artificial dikes... on the other hand we're dealing with an an enemy who may have trolls...

Or did we definitely decide:no trolls at all for Gothmog, orcs only?

 

[Haakon]

Is this what you're looking for? I know, it's not exactly bluffs, there, but it's got something, I think. It's in Montenegro.