Thinking about ages

R

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
Recently going through Appendix B, I noticed that Sam and Faramir were born in the same year. Since they are two of my favorite characters, it's hard to figure out why I hadn't noticed that before. That makes them both 35. So of the younger hobbits, Pippin is 29 and Sam is 35. I've been figuring Merry to be in the first couple of years of being of age, and if my mental math is right going through the post-LOTR years, he is two years younger than Sam, which would make him 33 at the time of the fellowship. And it occurred to me that young people these days think of 18 as the coming-of-age age, but in Tolkien's time (and mine, I would add) it was 21. In class we have sometimes thought of Pippin as the equivalent of today's 16 or 17. I don't think that is right - I imagine him more like 18, a time when people are kind of mostly grown up, and certainly old enough to be soldiers, to be done with school, even without the right to vote or sign contracts, and with occasional lapses into younger behavior.

I also noticed that Denethor was born one year before Aragorn - and Theoden is 17 years younger than Aragorn. I find that mind-blowing. Think of Aragorn and Eowyn with that in mind.
 
Still a smaller age gap than Aragorn to Arwen though.
Regarding Pippin’s equivalent age, I think you are correct: 18 to 20 is where I’ve thought in the past.
What seems to complicate it is his apparently sheltered upbringing; one might think that the son of the Thain would have had more seriousness impressed upon him, but as his father (a farmer) became Thain unexpectedly when Pippin was 25 even this can be explained.
 
Rachel don't you have to divide Aragorn's age by three to get a sense of how old he is physiologically. In a sense it is the same with Arwen. While she is old by the standards of even the Numenorean's she is by the standards of the immortal elves young.
 
Rachel Port said:
Recently going through Appendix B, I noticed that Sam and Faramir were born in the same year. Since they are two of my favorite characters, it's hard to figure out why I hadn't noticed that before. That makes them both 35. So of the younger hobbits, Pippin is 29 and Sam is 35. I've been figuring Merry to be in the first couple of years of being of age, and if my mental math is right going through the post-LOTR years, he is two years younger than Sam, which would make him 33 at the time of the fellowship. And it occurred to me that young people these days think of 18 as the coming-of-age age, but in Tolkien's time (and mine, I would add) it was 21. In class we have sometimes thought of Pippin as the equivalent of today's 16 or 17. I don't think that is right - I imagine him more like 18, a time when people are kind of mostly grown up, and certainly old enough to be soldiers, to be done with school, even without the right to vote or sign contracts, and with occasional lapses into younger behavior.
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Hi Rachel,

In the Shire, Hobbits came of age at 33. So 33 for a Hobbit is roughly equivalent to 21 for Men.

"At the time (when Frodo first came to live with Bilbo) Frodo was still in his tweens, as the hobbits called the irresponsible twenties between childhood and coming of age at thirty-three." (First page of 'A Long Expected Party')
 
Longtimer said:
Rachel don't you have to divide Aragorn's age by three to get a sense of how old he is physiologically. In a sense it is the same with Arwen. While she is old by the standards of even the Numenorean's she is by the standards of the immortal elves young.
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Re Aragorn: No, if that were the case he wouldn’t have come to maturity at 20, but at 60.
The Elves don’t seem to have the same concept of ‘young’ as mortals, and for good reason. Can you imagine being 6000 years old and still thought of as young, with all of the baggage that comes with that? The Elven maturation process doesn’t map well to the mortal condition.
 
Longtimer said:
Rachel don't you have to divide Aragorn's age by three to get a sense of how old he is physiologically. In a sense it is the same with Arwen. While she is old by the standards of even the Numenorean's she is by the standards of the immortal elves young.
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If Aragorn's 80-something years is divided by three, he's in his twenties. It's unlikely that he would have grey in his hair if that were true, and more importantly, it's unlikely he would arouse the kind of respect and loyalty in others that he does. And he has lived a hard life. He would not look old the way Denethor or Theoden do, but I do picture him older than Vigo Mortensen - kind of craggy, like the older Clint Eastwood, perhaps, (he's got that great look, whatever I think of him otherwise).

And time passes and is measured differently for elves, so we can't really judge Arwen's age by mortal standards.

Flammifer, isn't that what I was saying?
 
Rachel Port said:
If Aragorn's 80-something years is divided by three, he's in his twenties. It's unlikely that he would have grey in his hair if that were true, and more importantly, it's unlikely he would arouse the kind of respect and loyalty in others that he does. And he has lived a hard life. He would not look old the way Denethor or Theoden do, but I do picture him older than Vigo Mortensen - kind of craggy, like the older Clint Eastwood, perhaps, (he's got that great look, whatever I think of him otherwise).

And time passes and is measured differently for elves, so we can't really judge Arwen's age by mortal standards.

Flammifer, isn't that what I was saying?
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Hi Rachel,

I am not sure what you were saying. However, if hobbit 33 = human 21, then Pippin, at hobbit 25 = human 15.9 (simple ratios). Now, I'm not sure if simple ratios apply, however, I suggest that JRRT's comment about the 'irresponsible twenties' and the math, both seem to suggest that it might be more appropriate to compare Pippin to 16 year olds, than to 18 year olds?
 
Folks I was taken too literally.
Yes Aragorn is 80 but he cannot be thought of as an 80 year old. Rachels initial post makes Eowyn's love for him seem crazy it isn't. Even if she married him he would outlive her by an added lifetime or two.
Yes Arwen is ageless but she lives by a different standard making her relationship with Aragorn reasonable.
 
Flammifer said:
I am not sure what you were saying. However, if hobbit 33 = human 21, then Pippin, at hobbit 25 = human 15.9 (simple ratios). Now, I'm not sure if simple ratios apply, however, I suggest that JRRT's comment about the 'irresponsible twenties' and the math, both seem to suggest that it might be more appropriate to compare Pippin to 16 year olds, than to 18 year olds?
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Pippin is 29, just a few years short of coming of age. Therefore, if hobbit 33 equals human 21, he would be around 18 or even 19.

Longtimer said:
Yes Aragorn is 80 but he cannot be thought of as an 80 year old. Rachels initial post makes Eowyn's love for him seem crazy it isn't. Even if she married him he would outlive her by an added lifetime or two.
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I meant the opposite. It doesn't really seem so far-fetched for Eowyn to fall for Aragorn - but that's why I was so surprised to realize that he is actually 17 years older than Theoden. I had to double check it. My point was that we don't think of Aragorn as part of that generation, although he really is - he fought with Denethor, and was an adult when he talked with Theoden and Eomund, who is Eowyn's father. I think of him as maybe 45 or 50, just a bit older than Boromir, who is 40.
 
Rachel that is the dichotomy of Aragorn. He seems and is physiologically much younger than Theoden or Denathor. He comments on this to the hobbits at their first meeting "I am older than I look"
 
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