Flammifer
Well-Known Member
In Appendix B, we are told the mission of the Istari, or Wizards: “It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.”
There are at least three times that Gandalf the Grey crosses the borders of that injunction, in deed or in thought.
Can anyone think of other examples? Any instances once Gandalf has become the White?
Do we see, in these examples that all the Istari, not just Saruman can fall? Can they all fall in a similar way? Focusing on attempting to succeed in their primary mission to the extent that the ends seem to justify the means? Saruman’s mission as he conceives it, seems to be to defeat Sauron. He comes to believe that the only way to do this is to wield the Ring against Sauron. Gandalf at some point seems to conceive his mission to be to deny the Ring to Sauron. (He has more estel than Saruman (perhaps than Elrond) that Sauron, if he does not re-gain his Ring, can be defeated). If the injunction against dominating others through force or fear was correctly reported, then have both broken that injunction and decided that the ends justified the means?
If both Saruman and Gandalf have fallen, and broken the injunction, what differentiates them? Why does one go on to become the White, and return to the West, while the other’s staff is broken, and the West shuns his spirit?
Is it a difference in degree of their fall? Is it repentance? Is it some form of redemption through later acts (denying the Ring when offered by Frodo? Sacrifice in battle against Balrog to save companions)?
What do Gandalf’s breaches of the injunction on the Istari, and the comparison with Saruman, tell us about temptation, sin, redemption, and salvation in TLOTR?
There are at least three times that Gandalf the Grey crosses the borders of that injunction, in deed or in thought.
- With Bilbo in Bag End, when Bilbo says, “Well, if you want my ring yourself, say so! But you won’t get it. I won’t give my precious away. I tell you.” Gandalf’s eyes flashed. “It will be my turn to get angry soon. If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.” He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.”
- Gandalf describing his de-brief of Gollum after Strider had captured him: “I endured him as long as I could, but the truth was desperately important, and in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the true story out of him, bit by bit, together with much snivelling and snarling.”
- In the first two examples, Gandalf uses fear (and force) to dominate in order to achieve what he considers to be a desperately important goal in the mission to oppose Sauron. In the third example, Gandalf contemplates domination through fear and force merely to assuage his own fear and guilt as he rides towards Bree, assuming that Frodo and the Ring have been captured by the Nasgul and thinking, “Butterbur they call him. If this delay was his fault, I will melt all the butter in him. I will roast the old fool over a slow fire.”
Can anyone think of other examples? Any instances once Gandalf has become the White?
Do we see, in these examples that all the Istari, not just Saruman can fall? Can they all fall in a similar way? Focusing on attempting to succeed in their primary mission to the extent that the ends seem to justify the means? Saruman’s mission as he conceives it, seems to be to defeat Sauron. He comes to believe that the only way to do this is to wield the Ring against Sauron. Gandalf at some point seems to conceive his mission to be to deny the Ring to Sauron. (He has more estel than Saruman (perhaps than Elrond) that Sauron, if he does not re-gain his Ring, can be defeated). If the injunction against dominating others through force or fear was correctly reported, then have both broken that injunction and decided that the ends justified the means?
If both Saruman and Gandalf have fallen, and broken the injunction, what differentiates them? Why does one go on to become the White, and return to the West, while the other’s staff is broken, and the West shuns his spirit?
Is it a difference in degree of their fall? Is it repentance? Is it some form of redemption through later acts (denying the Ring when offered by Frodo? Sacrifice in battle against Balrog to save companions)?
What do Gandalf’s breaches of the injunction on the Istari, and the comparison with Saruman, tell us about temptation, sin, redemption, and salvation in TLOTR?