Timeless Halls and the Void

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I do feel obligated to point out that Void does tend to suggest a certain amount of ... no substance.

 

[MithLuin]

Haha, well, yes, of course - but how do you represent that on film? Because if your actor(s) are standing in an indoor set with black backdrops, it won't seem very 'Void'-like, either. It won't even really look like a dark room. Swirly nothingness that can suck you in (or blur/obscure your own outline or definition) is scarier than shooting the scene while standing in front of a black velvet drape
But I do recognize that swirly smoke or lapping waves or any other representation is likely to have way too much substance for...Void.

 

[Haakon]

I'm convinced that we should avoid depicting the Void as having substance.

We could indicate that Melkor is travelling into the Void by showing the light of the Halls farther and farther away. If the only light around is coming from Melkor (or you just barely can see the Halls as a faint point of light far off), that should create the feeling of him being in dark nothing.

 

[MithLuin]

The Void should be outer space, so...yes, a glowing figure traveling in nothingness, with a distant vision of the Halls as a point of light (maybe not unlike that last nebula picture, showing them floating in space, but further away....)

 

[Haakon]

That is a rather powerful image of his feeling of importance - in the Void, he alone is the source of light.

 

[MithLuin]

The challenge will be to depict this on film in a way that doesn't feel like a small closed-in stage. Because 'blank black nothingness' isn't going to feel very....big. I mean, we can zoom out so Melkor is just a small point of light, I suppose, but it's really important that this come across as emptiness, not as greenscreen=black=a wall right behind him.

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but putting a whispy swirly smoke-like substance on screen might make it look more...empty, and stretching out forever.

I also think that using the Timeless Halls as a bright jewel floating in dark empty space when Melkor is out in the Void looking back on it will be a very powerful image.

(Go not to the elves for advice, for they will tell you both yes and no )

 

[ouzaru]

The only thing that I don't like about the Timeless Halls floating in nothingness that that it seems to suggest that they exist within the Void, whereas I would sort of rather do it the other way 'round, if they are to be contiguous at all. This is part of the reason I suggested the Void begin as waves on the "shores" of the Timeless Halls: the implication of a shore is that it goes all the way down, and the water is contained within a cavity in the earth, even if the feeling one gets standing on a short is sort of a standing on an edge. While I understand that this means we might visually confuse the Void with having some sort of substance, I think that the recession of the "water" of the void into a blackness on the horizon, where there is no distinguishable line between the Void "water" and the Void "sky" is pretty attractive in a way that a floating hall or floating island really isn't. It's one of the sort of exciting things about looking out to sea at night from a city: the stars remain invisible, and therefore you have no way to discern where the sky begins and the ocean ends, but you can very clearly still make out the shore line in either direction because of the contrast of the bright sand and the dark water.

 

[Haakon]

The only thing that I don't like about the Timeless Halls floating in nothingness that that it seems to suggest that they exist within the Void, whereas I would sort of rather do it the other way 'round, if they are to be contiguous at all. This is part of the reason I suggested the Void begin as waves on the "shores" of the Timeless Halls: the implication of a shore is that it goes all the way down, and the water is contained within a cavity in the earth, even if the feeling one gets standing on a short is sort of a standing on an edge. While I understand that this means we might visually confuse the Void with having some sort of substance, I think that the recession of the "water" of the void into a blackness on the horizon, where there is no distinguishable line between the Void "water" and the Void "sky" is pretty attractive in a way that a floating hall or floating island really isn't. It's one of the sort of exciting things about looking out to sea at night from a city: the stars remain invisible, and therefore you have no way to discern where the sky begins and the ocean ends, but you can very clearly still make out the shore line in either direction because of the contrast of the bright sand and the dark water.

I understand that reservation. Or perhaps not I take it that you don't want the Halls to be secondary to the Void. Am I right?

The way I see it, it isn't a problem to have the Halls surrounded by the Void. The Halls wouldn't be in the Void, because the Void doesn't exist. The Timeless Halls is everything.

But...What is happening to Melkor when he is travelling in the Void? What does he travel through? Or in? Is it possible to get farther and farther away from the Halls if there is nothing to travel in or through?

 

[ouzaru]

Look, this is a visual depiction of a metaphysical concept, which means there's only really three ways to do it. If the Void exists as a place apart from the Timeless Halls that Melkor can enter into, then it exists. Even if that place is filled with nothing, it is still a place that he can go. As such, the Timeless Halls cannot itself be within the Void without making the Timeless Halls smaller than the Void. The only remaining alternatives are that they border one another, or the Void is contained within the Timeless Halls. Having them border one another seems the easiest to depict: otherwise we're looking at a perfectly empty container of some kind, and that kind of shreds the enormity and desolation of it. I really do not like the idea of the Void surrounding the Timeless Halls, that seems entirely backwards to me.

 

[Haakon]

Look, this is a visual depiction of a metaphysical concept, which means there's only really three ways to do it. If the Void exists as a place apart from the Timeless Halls that Melkor can enter into, then it exists. Even if that place is filled with nothing, it is still a place that he can go. As such, the Timeless Halls cannot itself be within the Void without making the Timeless Halls smaller than the Void. The only remaining alternatives are that they border one another, or the Void is contained within the Timeless Halls. Having them border one another seems the easiest to depict: otherwise we're looking at a perfectly empty container of some kind, and that kind of shreds the enormity and desolation of it. I really do not like the idea of the Void surrounding the Timeless Halls, that seems entirely backwards to me.

Well there is the possibility that Melkor is the only one leaving the Halls and when he leaves the existence of the Halls he brings the quality of existence with him. That would create emptiness but that would be more than nothing.

 

[MithLuin]

Well, unless the Timeless Halls stretch infinitely in one direction, they are perforce surrounded by the Void. The Halls should seem large while we are in them, but I think it's a good image to see them as a small bright spot, looking back from the Void. It will make Melkor seem an outsider and profoundly alone - a good image for him for later.

I don't see a problem with the Timeless Halls being surrounded by the Void, nor do I see how we would in any way avoid that.

The Void is, more or less, Outer Space. So, yes, you can travel through it and it has distances, but, for the most part...there's nothing there (this is Outer Space without stars or planets or comets or....anything). A vacuum. Having the nothingness of the Void try to 'bleed' away some of Melkor's substance, possibly blurring his outline after awhile, would be a way to depict the danger of this space. It may be possible to use the imagery of a beach and an 'ocean' of nothingness when looking out at the Void from within the Halls, though. The floor doesn't have to be insubstantial.



Also, it occurs to me that the 'no throne' idea has some implications that deviate from the text. Ilúvatar clearly has a throne in the Ainulindale, and he is sitting on it while the Ainur perform their Music. So, are we changing that? I am okay with the change, as I like the idea that he doesn't need a throne, but visually, he won't be able to stand up to interrupt the music if he's not seated when it begins.

 

[Haakon]

Maybe we can work with his size to give a feeling similar to standing up. (He could suddenly be larger)

 

[Haakon]

Could there sometimes be a throne? Like, only when he listens to the Music?

 

[MithLuin]

Well, depending on how we decide to depict Iluvatar, it's possible he could either be seated without any throne, or 'make' a throne temporarily when he wishes to sit.

Or, we could give him a throne room.

 

[ouzaru]

Well, unless the Timeless Halls stretch infinitely in one direction, they are perforce surrounded by the Void. The Halls should seem large while we are in them, but I think it's a good image to see them as a small bright spot, looking back from the Void. It will make Melkor seem an outsider and profoundly alone - a good image for him for later.

I don't see a problem with the Timeless Halls being surrounded by the Void, nor do I see how we would in any way avoid that.

The Void is, more or less, Outer Space. So, yes, you can travel through it and it has distances, but, for the most part...there's nothing there (this is Outer Space without stars or planets or comets or....anything). A vacuum. Having the nothingness of the Void try to 'bleed' away some of Melkor's substance, possibly blurring his outline after awhile, would be a way to depict the danger of this space. It may be possible to use the imagery of a beach and an 'ocean' of nothingness when looking out at the Void from within the Halls, though. The floor doesn't have to be insubstantial.



Also, it occurs to me that the 'no throne' idea has some implications that deviate from the text. Ilúvatar clearly has a throne in the Ainulindale, and he is sitting on it while the Ainur perform their Music. So, are we changing that? I am okay with the change, as I like the idea that he doesn't need a throne, but visually, he won't be able to stand up to interrupt the music if he's not seated when it begins.

I mean, to my mind, they're separate planes of existence, but I'm not keen on going Men in Black with it and representing the Universe as a glass bauble filled with existence. Certainly Tartarus was reachable via physically walking to a place on the Earth, but I do not think we're obliged to think that the Timeless Halls are the Elysian Fields, and I certainly don't think the same could be said of Tolkien's Legendarium. And as I said, the descriptions in the Silmarillion seem to me rather to suggest that it's the other way around, that the void is contained within the Timeless Halls. I haven't got my copy of the Silmarillion in the same time zone, so I would appreciate it if someone could throw up the few passages that discuss Melkor and the Void so we can have something more substantial (har-har) than my vague recollections to work with.

I kind of like the idea of bit of Melkor leaking away, let's explore that angle some more.

Personally really like Iluvatar standing at the end of the Music, so I would hope we could get a throne....

 

[MithLuin]

Here is *a* version of the Ainulindalë, for reference:
http://tolkienguide.narod.ru/promet/Ainulindale.pdf

Some excerpts:

"To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren; and he had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame. For desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."


"But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him. But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew."


"...and while the Ainur were yet gazing upon this vision, it was taken away and hidden from their sight; and it seemed to them that in that moment they perceived a new thing, Darkness, which they had not known before except in thought. But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles not full-wrought when the vision was taken away, and there was unrest among them.

Therefore Ilúvatar called to them, and said: 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye
yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth the flame imperishable into the Void, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing:

Eä, the World that Is."


​

 

[ouzaru]

I mean, I think my previous assertion that the Void is contained within the Halls is just me responding to the amount of "into" that pops up, what you've got there reads an awful lot like just being a separate plane rather than being contiguous or physically connected in any way. I definitely don't get the feeling that the Void surrounds the Halls at all, though, I would expect to see "out" if that were the case.

 

[MithLuin]

I have pretty much always imagined the Halls as a discrete location floating in space (the Void), and then the earth is created out in the Void...far enough away from the Timeless Halls that they're not in our Solar System, but somewhere out in the emptiness of space. I've never bothered with separate planes of existence or anything like that to describe it....though I am not exactly of the opinion that you could build a spaceship to get to the Timeless Halls, either.

I guess I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding what the issue is with that conception, as you can go into the Void by leaving the Halls still?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I mean, I think my previous assertion that the Void is contained within the Halls is just me responding to the amount of "into" that pops up, what you've got there reads an awful lot like just being a separate plane rather than being contiguous or physically connected in any way. I definitely don't get the feeling that the Void surrounds the Halls at all, though, I would expect to see "out" if that were the case.

I'd just like to point out that when I go swimming, I go into the ocean. Or I can go into space on a rocket. It's just a way we say things.

 

[ouzaru]

Primarily my objection is that a great hall floating in the blackness of space is going to look hokey as heck on screen, though other objections like "couldn't you just take a space ship to get to the halls" is equally kind of an issue the way we've described it.

I'm probably also being somewhat influenced by my own cosmological understanding of the universe as finite and therefore bounded, and whatever "Heavens" might exist as being altogether outside those confines.

But mostly the first thing. Let's not have floating halls, please, it looked silly and terrible in Dragon Age and it'll look silly here.