Timeless Halls and the Void

Nicholas Palazzo said:
I have stated before that we need to be very careful when we use the word 'myth', we are not using the modern meaning as "Something that is believed, but not true." Tolkien would have wholeheartedly rejected that. To him, myth was just as true as anything else. I don't think we have to be afraid to show the world as described in the Ainulindale, and have it seem "too real", because to Tolkien, myth is real. (Was, but you get my point.)
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I don't know if it's a translation thing because English isn't my first language but I mean myth as in part or all of the story of origins of the world as a whole as well as of certain aspects of it, central or very important to a belief system or something like that.
The "too real" thing - well I'm not sure I agree. But I'm not sure it's a problem. Tolkien doesn't describe the Halls with a lot of detail, so we don't have to either.
 
Ok, so ... I'm bypassing the whole "Void" issue and trying to build a set design that will work for the Timeless Halls themselves. I'm making it big enough where it will appear infinite from the center. And yes, I'm making it in the only 3d building tool I have at my disposal. Don't judge me.

Screenshot (3)

Screenshot (3)

Initial Stages of Timeless Halls Construction.

I'll add more pictures as I get closer to the end.
 
I am interested to see what you come up with, though I can't see that screenshot.

And no judgment here - I have access to AutoCAD, and drew the Timeless Halls in MS Paint 😛
 
Well, I know Marie was there a minute ago, so she knows, but the Big 3 didn't help us much with the Void/ Timeless Halls question, SO

In the time-honored tradition of the Tolkien Professor himself, my suggestion for the "topography" of the Timeless Halls is: don't show it at all. We can have individual settings, but we won't show transitions between them of any kind. I think it's sort of cowardly, but considering we haven't got anyone to draw up what's in our brains anyway, we avoid overhead shots or wide vistas and stay close to the actors. There's no moving between the Void and the Timeless Halls at all, we cut back and forth between the frame and the various locations in the Ainulindale as needed. It's not my preferred choice, but if we can't get on the same page and Professor Olsen isn't keen to pick something or come up with an angle we haven't tried yet, then I really don't see how else we can do it.
 
They are very uncomfortable about how to represent the Timeless Halls.

They do not want to show the Vision of Arda hanging in the Void....they more want to 'enter in' to the vision so the flat earth thing is not an issue.

The Void was specifically mentioned to be a blank black backdrop.

The Timeless Halls with Iluvatar (ie, Episode 1) are well-lit.

The conversation between Varda and Melkor (Episode 3) has the Void as a backdrop, so it's just the two of them lit with a dark background.


Corey Olsen is very uncomfortable about having any one architectural style be sanctioned by God, and that that makes the work of the Valar too derivative.
He liked your idea about a shifting, changing architecture better, though he was very nervous about the chaotic element there (I think fractal patterns would help, but he did not comment on that).
He seemed to think it important to keep the Halls rather...indistinct. He likely the idea of them being somewhat obscured/misty, so long as there was no 'heaven in the clouds' vibe. He doesn't want them to be nebulous.
 
ouzaru said:
Well, I know Marie was there a minute ago, so she knows, but the Big 3 didn't help us much with the Void/ Timeless Halls question, SO

In the time-honored tradition of the Tolkien Professor himself, my suggestion for the "topography" of the Timeless Halls is: don't show it at all. We can have individual settings, but we won't show transitions between them of any kind. I think it's sort of cowardly, but considering we haven't got anyone to draw up what's in our brains anyway, we avoid overhead shots or wide vistas and stay close to the actors. There's no moving between the Void and the Timeless Halls at all, we cut back and forth between the frame and the various locations in the Ainulindale as needed. It's not my preferred choice, but if we can't get on the same page and Professor Olsen isn't keen to pick something or come up with an angle we haven't tried yet, then I really don't see how else we can do it.
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Maybe you're right - and I more or less agree with you, although I have to admit I'm not ready to accept that we don't show it at all. We also have the issue with Nienna's windows looking out into the Void. There we must show both her house in Valinor and the Void, as far as I can tell.
 
MithLuin said:
They are very uncomfortable about how to represent the Timeless Halls.

They do not want to show the Vision of Arda hanging in the Void....they more want to 'enter in' to the vision so the flat earth thing is not an issue.

The Void was specifically mentioned to be a blank black backdrop.

The Timeless Halls with Iluvatar (ie, Episode 1) are well-lit.

The conversation between Varda and Melkor (Episode 3) has the Void as a backdrop, so it's just the two of them lit with a dark background.


Corey Olsen is very uncomfortable about having any one architectural style be sanctioned by God, and that that makes the work of the Valar too derivative.
He liked your idea about a shifting, changing architecture better, though he was very nervous about the chaotic element there (I think fractal patterns would help, but he did not comment on that).
He seemed to think it important to keep the Halls rather...indistinct. He likely the idea of them being somewhat obscured/misty, so long as there was no 'heaven in the clouds' vibe. He doesn't want them to be nebulous.
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Ok that's at least slightly clear.
 
Hmmmm, I wonder....

The desire to avoid architecture when designing a building seems, at first glance, a nearly impossible task. But if we are willing to resort to full-on CGI and not create a design that can even be built, there might be a way.

The Halls of Iluvatar should be made of Thought, not be a physical place. And thus, if we make them like a living thing that responds to the desires of those who are in them, it might be possible to do something both utterly alien and still not so indistinct as to be blurry and hazed over all the time. So, picture a wall, maybe made out of what looks like colorful marble. As someone walks towards it, a door opens in it to allow the person to pass into the next chamber (like in Star Trek! lol). But, rather than a 'door', it might look more like a heart valve...that wasn't there before. The structure is thus always changing, always adapting, and not really the kind of structure you could build.

Granted, it would seem very creepy if the walls were like membranes and it seemed they were inside a living organism. So, the materials have to look more like building materials and less like living matter. But the design can be very organic, lacking straight walls (in any dimension). Perhaps the work of Javier Senosiain could be an inspiration for the architecture here?

If the design is constantly changing, rooms opening and closing like flowers and doors/windows appearing as necessary, ceilings soaring up and walls pushing further apart to allow more people to be in a room.....well....would that be not tied to our world?
 
Why exactly? I'm not sure I understand your question.
I think of it as a good dream. Weird things happen, but they are perfectly logical, and wonderful.

Also, let me point out that we're not spending hours in this environment. And focus will be mostly on the Valar, not on the architecture.
 
Ok, I'm abandoning my Timeless Halls build for two reasons.

One, I can't do ever-changing fractals.

Two, something weird happened to my build file and I'd have to start over anyway. I'm going to go to work on some more concrete designs instead.
 
Oh....well, that's frustrating.... I should point out that while fractals have been suggested here, they were not brought up by the execs. The execs more expressed extreme reluctance to depict the Halls at all, while conceding that they kinda have to. They didn't seem nearly as worried about the Void - they were just like, 'it's dark,' but they also want to avoid depicting a flat Arda at all. So, no far-away-establishing shots or Melkor looking down on Arda without it filling his view.

I brought up organic/living things because living things are dynamic, not static, but they are not chaotic or random, either. A heart beat is a very rhythmic, repeatable thing, and yet...

This is what it looks like:

It lacks symmetry and right angles. It never stays still.


I understand that the focus of these scenes (Roughly 20 min in Episode 1 and most of Episode 3) will be on the characters speaking, not the background. And I don't want it to be completely busy and distracting. I was more hoping that it would be...able to show something without it being a disappointment. I didn't want to go directly to 'mist-filled bright space'

Please let's not do this! ( :08-:20)

 
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I like the notion of organic movement, but I think we ought to avoid comparisons to meat-and-bones organics. A lot of that can probably be sidestepped by color, but if somebody goes "oh man, just like a heart valve!" we've failed. I'd like to get the impression that the texture is maybe marble or stone but it's shaped and kind of undulates like a body in slow motion? And all kind of gently obscured by an ever present mist? Like, you're not quite sure it's moving until you take a good hard look at it, kind of slow-motion.
 
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